Star Wars The Clone Wars & The Bad Batch [Spoilers]

[Jaxom 1974]

28 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Holy shit, that was AWESOME!

I only just watched the latest 3 episodes of the new arc and holy fucking shit there is such a huge gap with the previous ones, it's like it's not even the same show anymore.

Well, I guess it isn't. It's not the same opening, not the same music... Does Ahsoka look a bit older (taller too maybe) or is it just me?

I hadn't loved Star Wars this much for years (last time would have been in 2016 with the Vader-Ahsoka duel).

Just give Filoni the entire franchise already.

Didn't Palpatine send Order 66 immediately after Anakin pledged his allegiance to him and was sent to assault the Jedi Temple? It should have only taken a few minutes I think.

Ahsoka could be considered a Jedi (trained as such, and clearly with some loyalties remaining). Maul otoh is clearly not, and I guess we have to assume that Rex took the initiative of removing him because he was a threat to the Republic ; it's not the most satisfying explanation imho but it's the kind of odd detail I can live with.

Actually went back and watched that episode of Rebels with Ahsoka and Vader...all new layers to it.

Order 66 was immediately after Anakin turned and Mace was killed.  I didn't find any issues with the timelone on that.

One could surmise that Maul was to.simply he collateral damage and something the Emperor simply wanted.

[karaddin]

4 hours ago, felice said:

Yeah, that does seem like a continuity error; there's definitely no room for a time jump between Ahsoka's vision and Rex getting the order. Perhaps she's not actually sensing it in real time, but Maul is sending her a vision he experienced earlier? It does start with him opening his eyes...

I think we just need to give some leeway for making entertaining TV, the force vision was significantly sped up compared to the actual events in ROTS I'm pretty sure? Anakin hesitates over the decision for a while as the Palps-Windu lightning circuit is going on, but the audio clips she hears are only around 10s. It doesn't take long for Palps to give Vader his name and send him to the temple, but it takes longer than the walk to the briefing room.

If her entire vision happens slightly delayed as Palps is speaking to Anakin then it works and I'm happy enough with that. The Force has a short lag time, while the republic's comms systems are clearly instant so Rex gets the orders without any time lag.

Or if we want to go with an in universe explanation - the Force gives her the vision at the time she needed to hear it to get the outcome that we got. If she'd heard it 30 seconds earlier she would have been in the room with Rex and the following fight would have been different, maybe he wouldn't have been able to give her the Fives info etc. The Force weaves as the Force wills and all.

[felice]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Didn't Palpatine send Order 66 immediately after Anakin pledged his allegiance to him and was sent to assault the Jedi Temple? It should have only taken a few minutes I think.

At least a few minutes, yes, but Ahsoka is literally just a few metres away from Rex, and runs to him immediately after her vision. I suppose it's possible Sidious triggered pre-recorded orders as soon as WIndu was dead, before talking to Anakin, but that's a bit of a stretch.

55 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I think we just need to give some leeway for making entertaining TV

Oh yeah, trivia like this doesn't stop it being a great episode

55 minutes ago, karaddin said:

If her entire vision happens slightly delayed as Palps is speaking to Anakin then it works and I'm happy enough with that. The Force has a short lag time, while the republic's comms systems are clearly instant so Rex gets the orders without any time lag.

It doesn't seem plausible that Force visions have more lag then holograms; they can even show the future, so the present shouldn't be a problem. But they can be vague. If it's not Maul that sends the vision, perhaps it's triggered by Anakin murdering the kids, and the Force shows her what lead to it rather than the act itself?

[Corvinus85]

30 minutes ago, felice said:

At least a few minutes, yes, but Ahsoka is literally just a few metres away from Rex, and runs to him immediately after her vision. I suppose it's possible Sidious triggered pre-recorded orders as soon as WIndu was dead, before talking to Anakin, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Oh yeah, trivia like this doesn't stop it being a great episode

It doesn't seem plausible that Force visions have more lag then holograms; they can even show the future, so the present shouldn't be a problem. But they can be vague. If it's not Maul that sends the vision, perhaps it's triggered by Anakin murdering the kids, and the Force shows her what lead to it rather than the act itself?

Maybe Ahsoka didn't immediately rush to talk to Rex, but pondered what she felt for a minute. 

 

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Maybe Ahsoka didn't immediately rush to talk to Rex, but pondered what she felt for a minute. 

 

I did ponder this as well, it's not implied by the editing but it's also not contradicted - it's a full cut to inside the command room close up on the hologram as he says "execute order 66".

I think the biggest thing that makes it feel too fast is the clone that summons Rex for the briefing feels ominous, like he's already been given the order himself, and is setting up a trap when that's just my foreknowledge. At least that's what it was for me.

2 hours ago, felice said:

Oh yeah, trivia like this doesn't stop it being a great episode

You'll note I immediately dove into the same speculation on how to explain it  so yeah I get it. I agree a delay on the Force doesn't make sense from a propagation perspective, but might from a "when the show you it" one.

[Rippounet]

7 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think the biggest thing that makes it feel too fast is the clone that summons Rex for the briefing feels ominous, like he's already been given the order himself, and is setting up a trap when that's just my foreknowledge. At least that's what it was for me.

I suppose the truly weird thing of the entire order of events is that Rex is conveniently summoned for a briefing just before Palpatine is finally ready to give Order 66. It's almost too perfect. Though I suppose there are at least three possible reasons for this:
1) Obi-Wan having killed Grievous meant the end of war and a reorganisation of all Republic forces.
2) Rex had accomplished his mission and had to give his report.
3) Palpatine having revealed himself as the Sith Lord to Anakin meant he had planned briefings with many clone commanders before Windu knowked at his door since this was always the final step of his master plan.

It's also true there should have been a few minutes at least between Ahsoka taking in her... eh... vision, and Rex getting Order 66. 
Or perhaps they should have made it clearer that Ahsoka was so overwhelmed that she lost the track of time.

Eh... It doesn't bug me too much. Obviously the whole thing happening so fast reinforces just how dramatic and sudden Anakin's fall was in the end. In Maul's terms, everything led us to this moment. They could have stretched it out a bit more, but it was supposed to happen fast.
I'm tempted to say this is nothing compared to the plotholes of the last movies.

Anyway, the last episode may feel a bit anti-climactic as they make their escape before going on their separate way.
OTOH if you see the conclusion to The Clone Wars as a transition to season 2 of The Mandalorian, then this is all a great way of building up the hype for Rosario Dawson playing Ahsoka. 
Totally working for me.
 

[Corvinus85]

13 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Anyway, the last episode may feel a bit anti-climactic as they make their escape before going on their separate way.
OTOH if you see the conclusion to The Clone Wars as a transition to season 2 of The Mandalorian, then this is all a great way of building up the hype for Rosario Dawson playing Ahsoka. 
Totally working for me.
 

Why would the conclusion of CW be a transition to The Mandalorian? There's Rebels in between, the Galactic Civil War, and Ahsoka & Sabine teaming up after.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Why would the conclusion of CW be a transition to The Mandalorian? There's Rebels in between, the Galactic Civil War, and Ahsoka & Sabine teaming up after.

And Thanos could always show up with the infinity gauntlet.

[Rippounet]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Why would the conclusion of CW be a transition to The Mandalorian?

Because that's the next big Star Wars release, obviously - independently of the in-universe chronology.

Getting the background of a badass character (or the badass background of a character? ) is always a pretty good way to build up the hype for her future adventures (a great many fictional works do this via flashbacks).
In this case we get that because the different shows were not released in the in-universe chronological order. The result is the same though imho.

And this is Disney we're talking about, with its top-notch marketing strategy. Combine Ahsoka's past and Ahsoka's future and what kid will not want an Ahsoka toy to kick the bad guys' asses? Combined with Mando and BabyYoda you've got a dream team for kids and nerds alike. The badass brooding dude with a mysterious past, the young rebel goodie turned wise master, and the goofy kid with an amazing potential.
Someone in marketing is wetting their pants just thinking about all this.

Unless you think this is all accidental, that no one thought about strategy at all, and this is all for the sake of art and nerd boners.

[Toth]

So apparently the episode has already gone up in New Zealand and people have uploaded the final scenes. No Mandalorian tie-in:

Spoiler

Rather a Rebels tie-in. I must say, Vader and Stormtroopers look sick in Clone Wars animation style. XD

Also I have to say, I remember my first Star Wars fanfiction back in 2012 was actually a short about how I wished The Clone Wars to end, with Order 66 and a confrontation of Vader and Ahsoka. This isn't quite what The Clone Wars now did (obviously because Rebels got in the way), but I feel like the sentiment is very similar to what I was writing 8 years ago. Makes me feel stupidly validated. XD

[Corvinus85]

26 minutes ago, Toth said:

So apparently the episode has already gone up in New Zealand and people have uploaded the final scenes. No Mandalorian tie-in:

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Rather a Rebels tie-in. I must say, Vader and Stormtroopers look sick in Clone Wars animation style. XD

Also I have to say, I remember my first Star Wars fanfiction back in 2012 was actually a short about how I wished The Clone Wars to end, with Order 66 and a confrontation of Vader and Ahsoka. This isn't quite what The Clone Wars now did (obviously because Rebels got in the way), but I feel like the sentiment is very similar to what I was writing 8 years ago. Makes me feel stupidly validated. XD

And youtube clips have started popping up. ffs  I guess I must stay off the internet for the rest of today. 

[Toth]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

And youtube clips have started popping up. ffs  I guess I must stay off the internet for the rest of today. 

Yeah, I only realized that exactly because Youtube suddenly started to shove these clips into my face. XD

I don't care all that much about spoilers though. So it was just rather amusing to watch for me. Gotta say though that while effects were top-notch, something felt off:

Spoiler

Ahsoka and Rex trying not to kill any clones comes off as ridiculously hypocritical when their whole plan relied on the droids killing clones and profiting from Maul killing clones (and effectively killing everyone aboard the ship, though they couldn't possibly have expected him to be this thorough). It's this typical problem of The Clone Wars where they have an interesting idea but then in the last moment suddenly pull their punches because someone said "Hey, remember we are supposed to be a kids show again?". I'd say it would be much more impactful if Ahsoka and Rex had to deal with the psychological effects of having to fight their way out instead of washing their hands in innocence and only be sad that they died anyway.

 

[karaddin]

I disagree on that front

Spoiler

These are men that Ahsoka has fought beside since she was 14 or so. Now that the adrenaline of the first burst of fighting has calmed down I think it makes sense that even if she could leave them to die, she couldn't be the one to cut them down herself. 

Also bear in mind that decision comes after the lead clone opposing them walks out and is Jessie - it's not just some unnamed clone, it's one that even we the audience know so we can be sure Ahsoka knows him very well.

Also it's for Rex - while he might have been ok with killing them in the moment, killing his brothers directly would weigh heavily on him. Her refusing to directly kill them is a statement that his life has value as well, because it's so easy for him to put himself in the position of the rest of them.

Some great shots here with the cruiser crashing through the atmosphere and then Vader in the snow with her sabre lit in front of the wreckage at the end. This was the end it deserved.

 

[karaddin]

Just some further musing after seeing something I missed pointed out

Spoiler

When Anakin looks up at the owl circling above at the end his left eye is uncovered. It's the last remnant of Anakin peeking out, and staring at what he assumes to be the place his apprentice dies is the last blow that finishes off Anakin.

It's amazing that these kids cartoons have taken a tragic character and made him more understandable and more tragic. Taking the interpretation of Vader articulated in Rebels which has Vader as a separate personality, you have a man (Anakin) that has so thoroughly failed at everything he cared about that he's buried himself under a monster. He is so unable to cope with the pain of being himself that he actively tries to destroy any remnants of what he cared about so that they can't bring him back to himself, preferring to be the antithesis of who he was supposed to be rather than face the pain.

It's both tragic and pathetic

For those unfamiliar with interviews from around season 2 of Rebels, the implication from what was said is that the reason Luke could succeed at calling to Anakin where Ahsoka could not isn't just due to familial connection, it's that connection to Luke isn't tainted by the guilt at what he had done. Luke didn't know Anakin, couldn't see the details of his failure. Letting Ahsoka in would have made him emotionally confront all that he had done, so he'd kill her instead.

 

[Toth]

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

I disagree on that front

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These are men that Ahsoka has fought beside since she was 14 or so. Now that the adrenaline of the first burst of fighting has calmed down I think it makes sense that even if she could leave them to die, she couldn't be the one to cut them down herself. 

Also bear in mind that decision comes after the lead clone opposing them walks out and is Jessie - it's not just some unnamed clone, it's one that even we the audience know so we can be sure Ahsoka knows him very well.

Also it's for Rex - while he might have been ok with killing them in the moment, killing his brothers directly would weigh heavily on him. Her refusing to directly kill them is a statement that his life has value as well, because it's so easy for him to put himself in the position of the rest of them.

Some great shots here with the cruiser crashing through the atmosphere and then Vader in the snow with her sabre lit in front of the wreckage at the end. This was the end it deserved.

 

Weird, after our discussions in the Star Trek thread I expected you to be open to the more edgy option.^^

Spoiler

I am not denying at all that this is what they showed us, I am just saying that the messaging is stupid. "They may be willing to die, but I am not the one who is going to kill them." It is explicitly spelled out to us that Ahsoka denies all responsibility of their deaths even though she absolutely caused it. I'm not saying Ahsoka should be fine with slaughtering them all without repercussions, I am saying that the episode would have been more impactful if Ahsoka realized that for her to escape spilling their blood would be necessary. Heck, like I stated above, she DID kill them. What did she think would happen by throwing Maul at them to do the dirty work? I feel like there has been some heated debates behind the scenes about how serious it should get and in the end they decided to water it down while still keeping the major plot beats, resulting in the messaging being as disjointed as it is.

I'm not saying that to decry the episode as bad, it clearly wasn't, but the previous ones were also clearly a lot smoother and I think it had some wasted potential because of that.

[karaddin]

I just think I'd say that about

Spoiler

The ones Maul killed in the previous episode, and those he killed in the 'engine room' but not Jessie and the others they were fighting at the end. They could have escaped the crashing ship as well, they couldn't because of the chip but that's on Sidious not her.

As I said though, I think it's more important for the message it sends to Rex than keeping her hands clean anyway. Ultimately they're all on Sidious so I don't mind her burying and mourning them either.

 

[Toth]

25 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I just think I'd say that about

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The ones Maul killed in the previous episode, and those he killed in the 'engine room' but not Jessie and the others they were fighting at the end. They could have escaped the crashing ship as well, they couldn't because of the chip but that's on Sidious not her.

As I said though, I think it's more important for the message it sends to Rex than keeping her hands clean anyway. Ultimately they're all on Sidious so I don't mind her burying and mourning them either.

 

Spoiler

They couldn't escape because Rex destroyed the escape pods and there were inexplicably only two ships operationable, I grant you that. But stunning them or breaking all their bones through actually totally lethal falls isn't exactly increasing their chances of escape, is it?

I don't mind her burying and mourning them either and you bring up a good point that this is all on Sidious anyway, so I can totally see them focusing on that part of the tragedy. But they didn't, instead they constantly danced an entire episode around the issue of their main character killing and yet proclaiming that she isn't. This took far too much space to not become an issue.

(And yes, maybe I am so insistant on this because the episode somewhat ended up making Obi-Wan and Yoda look bad because of that. After all, unlike Miss totally not a murderer here they totally murdered with no qualms!)

Also why are we still speaking in spoilers, isn't the episode now out already?

[karaddin]

I'm in Australia so wasn't sure when it's ok for everyone else.

And she still did it in the moment of Order 66 last week, its just once she had time to consider her actions.

Also I'd argue the show made her and Anakin treating the clones as real people contrasted with all the other Jedi whose lack of "attachment" let them feel more comfortable treating them as disposable, as one of the key points of difference. It's the reason the troopers cared enough about Ahsoka to paint their helmets in her colors, she's basically their kid sister. So I don't think that comparison is undesired.

[felice]

Ahsoka is doing her very best to avoid directly killing anyone, but that doesn't mean she doesn't feel any responsibility for their deaths. The falls are definitely not lethal, or at least not for most of them. Some of the clones she disabled may well have died from their injuries, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth trying to minimise casualties. She certainly knew Maul would kill clones, but any specific individual clone at had at least a theoretical possibility of surviving the encounter, while they'd have no chance of surviving her killing them personally, which is a small but meaningful distinction. And that the ship would crash and kill everyone on board is something she couldn't have predicted. Failing to find a way to save them is very, very different from killing them! But I'm sure they felt guilt as well as sadness at the end, even though they didn't have any better options.

[Corvinus85]

A beautiful bittersweet ending. It was well done showing us it wasn't just the Jedi who fell, but the clones as well.

Half of the 501st got wiped out, and adding the losses they suffered at the Jedi Temple, you have to wonder if the 501st was among the first to be formed of stormtroopers.