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Star Wars The Clone Wars & The Bad Batch [Spoilers]


Corvinus85

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Hera: Why do you trust [Hunter] so much?

Omeega: He's my brother. 

Right, but so is crosshair and all the other clones who shoot at her every week... 

And Boba for that matter. I wonder if we'll see adult Omega reunite with Shand on The Book of Boba Fett? 

Anyway I guess it's cheating a bit to focus these last two episodes on Hera and Chopper but I thought they were great. The Bad Batch themselves continue to be the least interesting part of their own show. 

Was that good clone someone we knew from The Clone Wars?

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It remains fine, but still not in the class of Rebels and still not particularly special for itself. I am amused that we are now getting a prequel for the sequel of a prequel of a series, and we're getting into serious navel gazing. Did we really need to see how Hera and Chopper started out as kids? 

It's fine, and I'm sure the finale with its generic Filoni 'bring all the plots back together' will be fun, but it still isn't particularly good. 

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I like it pretty much, but so far the show is lacking in villains, especially scary ones.

That said, I'd very much if this show could become the precursor of Rebels in the sense that it really shows the gestation of the various rebel factions.

What I don't like is the tendency to show the Empire only as evil foreigners occupying various planets. A lot of folks actually are Imperials and like to be Imperials. They should be shown, too.

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Its a decent show so far but its not amazing. I do like the Empire scenes. Showing the clone that was arrested is not willing to do bad things is great but I want to see others and how they feel. Cody springs to mind. I've always hated the way the chips turned the clones into bad people but I assume they are wearing off which is why we are seeing how things are changing on Ryloth but I want to see how the other clones feel about everything from order 66 to enslaving planets.

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Yea, for a prequel it wasn't bad, but The Bad Batch remain the least interesting thing about their own show. Still it's nice to once again see characters I liked from The Clone Wars and Rebels.

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16 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Its a decent show so far but its not amazing. I do like the Empire scenes. Showing the clone that was arrested is not willing to do bad things is great but I want to see others and how they feel. Cody springs to mind. I've always hated the way the chips turned the clones into bad people but I assume they are wearing off which is why we are seeing how things are changing on Ryloth but I want to see how the other clones feel about everything from order 66 to enslaving planets.

I guess Order 66 was just a 'Jedi eradication program' not so much a general 'you are fascists now' program. The clones cannot really not kill the Jedi, but they can somewhat reflect on other orders, especially since their entire reason d'etre has changed considerably.

I hope the Bad Batchery ends with the first season, and we are going to get a proto-rebels group trying to help people rather than them just taking jobs which tend to be connected to what's going to grow into the Rebellion.

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54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess Order 66 was just a 'Jedi eradication program' not so much a general 'you are fascists now' program. The clones cannot really not kill the Jedi, but they can somewhat reflect on other orders, especially since their entire reason d'etre has changed considerably.

Yeah I think Order 66 is separate from the "good soldiers follow orders" thing. The chip itself is an obedience chip and Order 66 was just a hidden command. So it's just the general obedience thing that messed with Crosshair and Wrecker. 

But it does seem like there should be an explanation for this other good Clone not obeying. 

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess Order 66 was just a 'Jedi eradication program' not so much a general 'you are fascists now' program. The clones cannot really not kill the Jedi, but they can somewhat reflect on other orders, especially since their entire reason d'etre has changed considerably.

I hope the Bad Batchery ends with the first season, and we are going to get a proto-rebels group trying to help people rather than them just taking jobs which tend to be connected to what's going to grow into the Rebellion.

 

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Yeah I think Order 66 is separate from the "good soldiers follow orders" thing. The chip itself is an obedience chip and Order 66 was just a hidden command. So it's just the general obedience thing that messed with Crosshair and Wrecker. 

But it does seem like there should be an explanation for this other good Clone not obeying. 

At the end of CW, when the clones try to kill Ahsoka, Rex outlines that Order 66 is a directive which declares all Jedi traitors to the Republic. Furthermore, any soldier of the Republic who refuses to comply with the order is also a traitor. But that is done as there isn't even a Republic anymore. I think this is going to become part of the reason why the Empire moves away from the Jango clones, that many of these clones still feel a sense of loyalty to the Republic.

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On 7/16/2021 at 7:55 PM, Kaligator said:

It remains fine, but still not in the class of Rebels and still not particularly special for itself. I am amused that we are now getting a prequel for the sequel of a prequel of a series, and we're getting into serious navel gazing. Did we really need to see how Hera and Chopper started out as kids? 

It's fine, and I'm sure the finale with its generic Filoni 'bring all the plots back together' will be fun, but it still isn't particularly good. 

Yup. Star Wars is now purely in the nostalgia business. For the first time since I was 5 years old I have zero enthusiasm for this franchise.

The series itself was a bit "meh". 

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7 hours ago, RumHam said:

Yeah I think Order 66 is separate from the "good soldiers follow orders" thing. The chip itself is an obedience chip and Order 66 was just a hidden command. So it's just the general obedience thing that messed with Crosshair and Wrecker. 

But it does seem like there should be an explanation for this other good Clone not obeying. 

I'm not sure about that. I was under the impression the chip is specifically a fail-safe device to ensure Order 66 will be executed - which was never designed as something Sidious would be able to keep a secret if it were to be handed down the normal chain of command which included the Jedi. The 'good soldiers follow orders' thing seems to be a symptom when the general conditioning of the clones plus the Order 66 thing activate the impulse to kill the Jedi. It is not something that kicks in when a clone wonders whether a general command is legit or not.

The clones were generally designed as soldiers who obey the orders they are given, so I think the Order 66 must be separate from that. And the chips don't seem to help the Empire to turn the clones into obedient lackeys which can be used to brutalize civilians ... which seems to tell us that their purpose was mainly tied to Order 66.

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

At the end of CW, when the clones try to kill Ahsoka, Rex outlines that Order 66 is a directive which declares all Jedi traitors to the Republic. Furthermore, any soldier of the Republic who refuses to comply with the order is also a traitor. But that is done as there isn't even a Republic anymore. I think this is going to become part of the reason why the Empire moves away from the Jango clones, that many of these clones still feel a sense of loyalty to the Republic.

At this point it seems that specific clones who were charged to protect or free certain populations during the Clone Wars have trouble becoming oppressors. And earlier we saw that the Imperials want to replace the clone soldiers with recruits, although neither Lama Su nor I understand why this would make sense. Palpatine could and should just order more clones based on a new clone model, a guy more open to authoritarian rule, so his clones would have similar tendencies. The idea that indoctrinated folks could be better soldiers than the clones strikes me as very unlikely.

And the kind of fail-safe devices the Kaminoans provided with the chips and the Order 66 thing clearly isn't something an Imperial Academy can provide. Palpatine could be sure the clones were loyal ... but he cannot really be sure the recruits will be loyal or competent.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And earlier we saw that the Imperials want to replace the clone soldiers with recruits, although neither Lama Su nor I understand why this would make sense. Palpatine could and should just order more clones based on a new clone model, a guy more open to authoritarian rule, so his clones would have similar tendencies. The idea that indoctrinated folks could be better soldiers than the clones strikes me as very unlikely.

And the kind of fail-safe devices the Kaminoans provided with the chips and the Order 66 thing clearly isn't something an Imperial Academy can provide. Palpatine could be sure the clones were loyal ... but he cannot really be sure the recruits will be loyal or competent.

Palpy is scared of somebody else doing what he did.  If the Kaminoans just starting putting chips so that the clones couldn't refuse a kaminoan order for example.... what's he to do?  Get rid of it before it becomes a threat.

 

17 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Yup. Star Wars is now purely in the nostalgia business. For the first time since I was 5 years old I have zero enthusiasm for this franchise.

The series itself was a bit "meh". 

Star Wars has always been in the nostalgia business.  The entire concept was created by nostalgia for the old serials.  I also have zero enthusiasm but it is from Disney mishandling.  They rightfully recognize that people want to see/buy stuff that they are familiar with hence all the series/movies of stuff from the old movies or clone wars.  The problem is the absolute narrative dark hole they created in the sequel trilogy.  They can't really tell a meaningful story with any of the characters people want to see in the nostalgia stuff because we know where it all goes and it does not go well.  They can't do something say 100 years later because then they would lose the nostalgia factor and so money.  They've basically boxed themselves into a corner and will just keep going with the same mediocre stuff over and over.  It's sad honestly.

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3 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Star Wars has always been in the nostalgia business.  The entire concept was created by nostalgia for the old serials.  I also have zero enthusiasm but it is from Disney mishandling.  They rightfully recognize that people want to see/buy stuff that they are familiar with hence all the series/movies of stuff from the old movies or clone wars.  The problem is the absolute narrative dark hole they created in the sequel trilogy.  They can't really tell a meaningful story with any of the characters people want to see in the nostalgia stuff because we know where it all goes and it does not go well.  They can't do something say 100 years later because then they would lose the nostalgia factor and so money.  They've basically boxed themselves into a corner and will just keep going with the same mediocre stuff over and over.  It's sad honestly.

Yeah, but like (I think) you go on to say, now it's being nostalgic about itself. George Lucas (whatever his faults) was pretty successful at taking his mythology to new and interesting places with each new installment. He was also good at not repeating himself over 6 films and 2 trilogies. Now it's all about cameos, call-backs and easter eggs. "Story telling", in other words. 

That's why we got Luke and Asoka's cameos, which themselves were probably the biggest moments of the Mando series. That's why Boba Fett miraculously survived the Sarlac pit and is getting his own show. That's why we've been to Tatoine like 10 times in the last two seasons. $20 says we'll see a millennium falcon cameo in 2022. If Disney wants my interest, go ahead and fucking destroy that ship in the next movie. Maybe blast it to bits, fire it into a star, or just crush it into a goddamn cube and move on. 

I was thinking about Lucas' original and prequel trilogies in the context of this. I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure he never foreshadows the final Darth Vader form *once* in the 3 prequel films. And there is only one teeny, tiny, "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" millennium Falcon cameo in Revenge of the Sith. That's kind of remarkable when you think about it.

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6 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I was thinking about Lucas' original and prequel trilogies in the context of this. I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure he never foreshadows the final Darth Vader form *once* in the 3 prequel films. And there is only one teeny, tiny, "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" millennium Falcon cameo in Revenge of the Sith. That's kind of remarkable when you think about it.

Chewbacca was definitely a cameo on the level you're accusing Mandalorian of doing. Wookie planet, fine (and cool, frankly). Having Chewbacca interact with Yoda? Of all the wookies, Yoda meets and befriends the same one that will become buddies with both Anakin's son and Anakin's daughter's future husband?

People also have forgotten the backlash of having Anakin create Threepio. 

I find the Sequel/Disney backlash fascinating. 20 years ago, the Internet was on fire with hate toward Lucas "raping their childhood". Now it's Disney doing it and Lucas' glory days now include episodes 1-6. I submit that nostalgia has colored how we all view the past movies, depending on what age we were when we first saw them.

My teenage boys love the prequels and originals equally. My younger son is vehement against the sequels. He considers them garbage as a whole, yet when I probe specifics, he can't support his dislike because there are so many cool moments he does like.

Don't get me wrong: There is plenty about the sequels I dislike, mainly the way they were making everything up and retconning with each episode to the point the last one held enough set pieces for a whole trilogy on its own. But I enjoyed them all overall. 

Maybe I'm just an old fart (New Hope was the first film I remember seeing in a theater), but Star Wars was never "good" just full of imagination and fun.

 

(And I know I replied to you, Deadlines, but my reply deviated from the cameo response. :) . Your post you became the springboard to this)

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12 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Palpy is scared of somebody else doing what he did.  If the Kaminoans just starting putting chips so that the clones couldn't refuse a kaminoan order for example.... what's he to do?  Get rid of it before it becomes a threat.

Could be ... or not. If so, I'd like to know, but so far we don't know.

8 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Yeah, but like (I think) you go on to say, now it's being nostalgic about itself. George Lucas (whatever his faults) was pretty successful at taking his mythology to new and interesting places with each new installment. He was also good at not repeating himself over 6 films and 2 trilogies. Now it's all about cameos, call-backs and easter eggs. "Story telling", in other words. 

That's why we got Luke and Asoka's cameos, which themselves were probably the biggest moments of the Mando series. That's why Boba Fett miraculously survived the Sarlac pit and is getting his own show. That's why we've been to Tatoine like 10 times in the last two seasons. $20 says we'll see a millennium falcon cameo in 2022. If Disney wants my interest, go ahead and fucking destroy that ship in the next movie. Maybe blast it to bits, fire it into a star, or just crush it into a goddamn cube and move on. 

I was thinking about Lucas' original and prequel trilogies in the context of this. I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure he never foreshadows the final Darth Vader form *once* in the 3 prequel films. And there is only one teeny, tiny, "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" millennium Falcon cameo in Revenge of the Sith. That's kind of remarkable when you think about it.

Lucas may not be the greatest storyteller of all time but he did something new with the PT movies. Aesthetically and conceptually they had nothing to do with the OT movies ... whereas the ST garbage is basically a bad rehash of the OT formula.

There is a difference between cameos and recurring characters/locations and telling the same story in the same setting over and over again.

The only place Lucas revisited in the PT is Tatooine, and the only OT guys that show up again are the droids and Chewie. And narrative-wise it certainly can make sense that Anakin comes from Tatooine, considering Luke's uncle and aunt also live there. And it is implied in ANH that Obi-Wan came to Anakin and dragged him his idealistic crusade.

If Lucas had made the ST movies they would have looked different than the OT and PT both and they would have a different story than the earlier movies.

Also, look at what unconventional storytelling there was in TCW. There is a lot weirdness there, lots of experiments, many eccentricities. The shows Filoni made on his own are much more conventional. Linear storytelling is good, but neither Rebels nor The Bad Batch ever did something as strange as the Mortis arc, the droid squad thing or Threepio/Artoo having adventures on their own. TCW was a much broader show, whereas the others really don't try to do unexpected or weird things.

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On 7/16/2021 at 7:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

What I don't like is the tendency to show the Empire only as evil foreigners occupying various planets. A lot of folks actually are Imperials and like to be Imperials. They should be shown, too.

I feel like having plot lines with entire planets of happy imperials is going to be a bit of a challenge for a kids show.  Its much easier to keep the good guy / bad guy narrative. Its kind of like pointing at someone on the street and explaining how the clothes they choose to purchase propogates a cycle of wage slavery in some foreign country.  Or by eating red snapper sourced from mexico they're supporting cartels who run gill lines and are wiping out fish populations.

I don't think most people (especially kids) are going to be able to really handle that sort of thinking.  It either makes you sad to realize how little you can actually do to not be a part of an awful system, or makes you just not care.

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2 minutes ago, argonak said:

I feel like having plot lines with entire planets of happy imperials is going to be a bit of a challenge for a kids show.  Its much easier to keep the good guy / bad guy narrative. Its kind of like pointing at someone on the street and explaining how the clothes they choose to purchase propogates a cycle of wage slavery in some foreign country.  Or by eating red snapper sourced from mexico they're supporting cartels who run gill lines and are wiping out fish populations.

I don't think most people (especially kids) are going to be able to really handle that sort of thinking.  It either makes you sad to realize how little you can actually do to not be a part of an awful system, or makes you just not care.

Well, if you create a complex setting you should also tell complex stories. It was the same with TCW where the Separatists were always stupid villains who lost nearly every battle they fought in. That said - I didn't really mean happy Imperials as such, but show that there are Imperial planets where the denizens are Imperials and not just folks occupied by Imperial military. After all, so far it seems the Imperials come from some unknown place where fascist officers are bred or manufactured.

After all, we see the entire Galactic Senate applaud Palpatine when he proclaims the Galactic Empire. Surely that must mean that quite a few planets in the former Republic honestly believe in and support the Empire.

Of course, it would make sense that the show would focus more on the anti-Empire worlds ... but they should also portray pro-Empire worlds occasionally.

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, look at what unconventional storytelling there was in TCW. There is a lot weirdness there, lots of experiments, many eccentricities. The shows Filoni made on his own are much more conventional. Linear storytelling is good, but neither Rebels nor The Bad Batch ever did something as strange as the Mortis arc, the droid squad thing or Threepio/Artoo having adventures on their own. TCW was a much broader show, whereas the others really don't try to do unexpected or weird things.

Well Rebels introduced in the final season wormholes through a planet and time travel. It gave us a creature completely neutral in the Force, and canonized Thrawn who did win plenty of battles, only to be defeated through unconventional means. 

The Bad Batch is too young of a show yet.

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if you create a complex setting you should also tell complex stories. It was the same with TCW where the Separatists were always stupid villains who lost nearly every battle they fought in. That said - I didn't really mean happy Imperials as such, but show that there are Imperial planets where the denizens are Imperials and not just folks occupied by Imperial military. After all, so far it seems the Imperials come from some unknown place where fascist officers are bred or manufactured.

After all, we see the entire Galactic Senate applaud Palpatine when he proclaims the Galactic Empire. Surely that must mean that quite a few planets in the former Republic honestly believe in and support the Empire.

Of course, it would make sense that the show would focus more on the anti-Empire worlds ... but they should also portray pro-Empire worlds occasionally.

The entire Senate applauding also came down to most of them being corrupt. As we see in the latest BB episodes, senator Taa is clearly on the Empire's side, while the rest of the Twi'leks not so much. But I agree that it would be nice to see Imperial friendly worlds which the Empire doesn't have to occupy by force. But I don't know if the Bat Batch is the show to do it. Maybe in later seasons, but right now our main characters are confined to the Outer Rim.

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