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Werthead

Star Trek Thread: Set Picard to Stun (spoilers)

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1 minute ago, Werthead said:

Just worth pointing out that TNG's Conspiracy in its first season was way more graphic than this episode of Picard (exploding heads ahoy!) and Wrath of Khan was not far off. Blood/gore is relatively rare in Trek but certainly not unprecedented.

And I think it's just as worth pointing out again and again the difference in intent, not just depiction. Conspiracy was way over the top and introduced a villain that was basically ignored and forgotten from then on because of how pointless (and expensive) the episode was, with Borg taking its place. Wrath of Khan was in intent actually pretty similar to this here, though it is kinda more multi-layered as the Tau Ceti worms (that I think you are pointing at) are illustrating not just that Khan is a bad guy torturing people, but also how fucked up the planet was and that him loosing so many people close to him to these creatures was what made him so hateful and that he is using them to give equal suffering to the people who stranded them there.

Icheb's scene was just there because operating on someone without anesthetic is a particularly villainous thing to do and Seven needed a reason to hate her. Like I said above, it doesn't even make sense with the motivation we've been given for the implant trader chick and once again, the very fact that Seven had stunned her in the flashback makes the idea mindboggling why she hasn't been locked up already.

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43 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Just worth pointing out that TNG's Conspiracy in its first season was way more graphic than this episode of Picard (exploding heads ahoy!) and Wrath of Khan was not far off. Blood/gore is relatively rare in Trek but certainly not unprecedented, and the earlier series would have had more blood and violence if they could have gotten away with it (RDM was always deeply frustrated they couldn't show the impact of violence more realistically, and bemoaned how sanitised and safe Trek often was, even a supposedly violent episode like The Siege of AR-558).

I'll grant you that Conspiracy was an insanely violent episode of Trek, but you'll notice how that's an early episode of TNG, from the shows first season; a season that is almost universally hated by many Trek fans. In fact the villains from that episode ended up being replaced by the Borg, almost as if the showrunners, never wanted to pull something like off again.

Now I'm not entire show where you're coming at with Wrath of Khan. The movie mostly only had people getting killed throw normal Star Trek means; phasers and ships blowing up. Amazing film all around and the main villain and hero never once meet in person. The only real gore I can think of in Wrath of Khan is when some of the characters bleed from the slugs put in their ears, but it has been a while since a saw the film.

Well RDM did always love his murder porn. You could see that with how dark and depressing he made Battlestar Galactica.

Edited by sifth

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17 minutes ago, Toth said:

Icheb's scene was just there because operating on someone without anesthetic is a particularly villainous thing to do and Seven needed a reason to hate her. Like I said above, it doesn't even make sense with the motivation we've been given for the implant trader chick and once again, the very fact that Seven had stunned her in the flashback makes the idea mindboggling why she hasn't been locked up already.

In what flashback did Seven stun the Bjayzl? Because in that flashback at the start of the episode, she outright kills the people working in that room, she just doesn't disintegrate them.

20 minutes ago, Toth said:

Wrath of Khan was in intent actually pretty similar to this here, though it is kinda more multi-layered as the Tau Ceti worms (that I think you are pointing at) are illustrating not just that Khan is a bad guy torturing people, but also how fucked up the planet was and that him loosing so many people close to him to these creatures was what made him so hateful and that he is using them to give equal suffering to the people who stranded them there.

Yes, indeed, they are very similar. And here, we get to see how bad these people are, maybe reminding us, as Trek is want to do with stuff in our society, that organ harvesters are still a thing. Icheb was twice victimized, first by the Borg, and then by these futuristic organ harvesters. So I'd say the intent was there, and it needed to be this visceral.

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1 minute ago, Corvinus said:

In what flashback did Seven stun the Bjayzl? Because in that flashback at the start of the episode, she outright kills the people working in that room, she just doesn't disintegrate them.

Yes, indeed, they are very similar. And here, we get to see how bad these people are, maybe reminding us, as Trek is want to do with stuff in our society, that organ harvesters are still a thing. Icheb was twice victimized, first by the Borg, and then by these futuristic organ harvesters. So I'd say the intent was there, and it needed to be this visceral.

Gene Roddenberry's vision was a galaxy WITHOUT NEED FOR ORGAN HARVESTERS!

Have you mouthbreathers even SEEN STAR TREK????

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1 minute ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Gene Roddenberry's vision was a galaxy WITHOUT NEED FOR ORGAN HARVESTERS!

Have you mouthbreathers even SEEN STAR TREK????

I remember when Star Trek was fun and hopeful. I suppose that's not cool in 2020 though.

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8 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

In what flashback did Seven stun the Bjayzl? Because in that flashback at the start of the episode, she outright kills the people working in that room, she just doesn't disintegrate them.

Nope, they go with the JJ-Trek rule that blue phaser shots stun people and red ones kill. She just stunned them. Just like with the guards later on.

But damn, you now made me start up the credits of the episode again and you are right in that this was not the implant trade chick, but a random person credited "Chop Doc". So... I guess that takes away the personal meaning of the scene as well that I had interpreted into it.

To your second point: It might be that Borg implants are somehow viable for a small amount of mad scientists, given how the Borg used to be portrayed as technologically superior before they were punted py a tiny exploration vessel named Voyager. Still didn't need them to act like horror movie villains.

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Quote

 

Now I'm not entire show where you're coming at with Wrath of Khan. The movie mostly only had people getting killed throw normal Star Trek means; phasers and ships blowing up. Amazing film all around and the main villain and hero never once meet in person. The only real gore I can think of in Wrath of Khan is when some of the characters bleed from the slugs put in their ears, but it has been a while since a saw the film.

 

I'm thinking of Terrell's tortured, agonising and incredibly long-drawn out scene culminating in him killing himself. There's also both Terrell and the other Regula I crewman both being vapourised and dying screaming and in some agony (rather than just instantly, quickly flashing out of existence). There's the Regula I crew who have been tortured, burned or stabbed and then left dangling upside down with blood everywhere. There's Scotty's nephew Preston whom he takes to the bridge (rather incongruously) having been burned alive and then dies in some pain with part of his face burned off. There's also the poor guy in the torpedo launcher chamber who's standing right there when the chamber is hit directly by the Reliant and bursts into flames (and presumably dies right there). There's also Khan's own death scene as he arms the Genesis device with half his face covered in blood and viscera.

The Wrath of Khan is by far the goriest Trek film and the only one in the UK to get an adult film rating. It's not exactly The Terminator or a full-on adult horror movie, but compared to a lot of the franchise it's relatively graphic.

In the Voyager episode with the Demon world replicas, their genetic breakdown and deaths are quite unpleasant (although not quite on the same level).

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16 minutes ago, sifth said:

I remember when Star Trek was fun and hopeful. I suppose that's not cool in 2020 though.

It truly confounds me. I love my dark shows. But I want my optimistic ones too. It wouldn't be so grating if the shit wasn't terribad on top of everything else.

Star Trek is a show about issues, so let's swap out the Star Trek Federation (a non-militant UN in space composed of hundreds of different alien species) with the Federation from Starship Troopers (a permanent member of Jace's top-5 movie council) because then they can be a xenophobic basket of deplorables who persecute Picard for being the only person with a conscience. 'CAUSE I'M A LIBRRAL TWWWWOOOO

Not, like, a group of explorers encounter an alien race or two who are experiencing a topical conflict that can be used to illuminate our own real-world issues while maintaining the spirit of the enterprise. Because then that would be hard to write or something?

Does it not bother you people that you're being pandered at on such an infantile level?

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16 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

It truly confounds me. I love my dark shows. But I want my optimistic ones too. It wouldn't be so grating if the shit wasn't terribad on top of everything else.

Star Trek is a show about issues, so let's swap out the Star Trek Federation (a non-militant UN in space composed of hundreds of different alien species) with the Federation from Starship Troopers (a permanent member of Jace's top-5 movie council) because then they can be a xenophobic basket of deplorables who persecute Picard for being the only person with a conscience. 'CAUSE I'M A LIBRRAL TWWWWOOOO

Not, like, a group of explorers encounter an alien race or two who are experiencing a topical conflict that can be used to illuminate our own real-world issues while maintaining the spirit of the enterprise. Because then that would be hard to write or something?

Does it not bother you people that you're being pandered at on such an infantile level?

I mean what really hurts this whole Romulan thing is, when you compare it to the Klingon treaty in Star Trek The Undiscovered County. Sure some members of the Federation tried to screw up the Federations plans to make peace and help the Klingons, but those guys were very much in the minority and were even willing to kill the leader of the Klingon empire and the president of the Federation to meet their goals.

Look how great making peace with the Klingons worked out for the Fedration. They were powerful allies during the Dominion War, characters like Worf were able to join Star Fleet and over all we got some amazing storytelling.

So the Federation in 2020 however is hateful and spiteful to the Romulans, yet the Klingons, who were just as evil in TOS and Discovery are in the clear? Something just doesn't add up here and I often wonder if the writers of this show are honestly familiar with Star Trek. For example we have Raffi living in a trailer house, like it's the only thing she can afford and mocking Picard for having his massive vineyard to live on, yet Earth in the Trek universe is suppose to no longer have poverty, so yea, wtf. Did the writers of the show just forget this or is Raffi just living in poverty of her own accord and if so why the hell are we suppose to feel bad for her?

Edited by sifth

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1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Gene Roddenberry's vision was a galaxy WITHOUT NEED FOR ORGAN HARVESTERS!

Have you mouthbreathers even SEEN STAR TREK????

There was money in DS9.

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2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

There was money in DS9.

Look, it's one thing to have a currency. Voyager had a currency, anti-matter. Because currency can be anything of value in any situation, particulalry one with limited or restricted resources. I would be a psycho if I nitpicked to that degree. But to have people living in trailers and rants against Picard on behalf of the oppressed workers of the xenophobic Federation???

No. Stop. False. Do not pass go. Incorrect. Mistaken. Negative. Negatory. Not applicable. Not a chance. No way. No how. Not there. Not then. Not ever. You do not comprehend the source material at a basic conceptual level. You get nothing. You lose! Good day, Sir! 

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To be fair, people have wrecked their brains for years about how the economics of Latinum even work because it makes so little sense in terms of the economy of the Federation. It is clear that it's mostly used to trade with foreign actors and that there is only a very limited amount of things you can buy with it, mostly services or unique commodities that would have no value if they were replicated.

Come to think of it, the whole thing about the captain flaunting his huge fee is irritating for the same reason. It could be that he speaks of latinum, but then again his weird smirk last episode made me wonder whether he's just kidding and his only payment is a few bottles of wine or something and he's just along the ride to have fun. In regards to the angry black woman stereotype... if I'm being generous I can say that she just wasted her life on drugs and didn't bother filling out the paperwork to get a proper flat and that her speech to Picard was entirely hypocritical nonsense and that Picard only didn't call her out on it because he was being diplomatic. There are after all a lot of homeless people even in countries with a proper social safety net who keep being homeless because of them being resigned to their fate and not applying for the help they could get from the government, usually because of drug and alcohol problems. That could be the same for her. She should be able to live a more balanced life if she applied for it, but because of her resignation she simply doesn't and keeps wallowing in self-pity. That would be my headcanon to shrug this off if I'm being generous and wouldn't be this appalled by the last episode.

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12 minutes ago, Toth said:

To be fair, people have wrecked their brains for years about how the economics of Latinum even work because it makes so little sense in terms of the economy of the Federation. It is clear that it's mostly used to trade with foreign actors and that there is only a very limited amount of things you can buy with it, mostly services or unique commodities that would have no value if they were replicated.

Come to think of it, the whole thing about the captain flaunting his huge fee is irritating for the same reason. It could be that he speaks of latinum, but then again his weird smirk last episode made me wonder whether he's just kidding and his only payment is a few bottles of wine or something and he's just along the ride to have fun. In regards to the angry black woman stereotype... if I'm being generous I can say that she just wasted her life on drugs and didn't bother filling out the paperwork to get a proper flat and that her speech to Picard was entirely hypocritical nonsense and that Picard only didn't call her out on it because he was being diplomatic. There are after all a lot of homeless people even in countries with a proper social safety net who keep being homeless because of them being resigned to their fate and not applying for the help they could get from the government, usually because of drug and alcohol problems. That could be the same for her. She should be able to live a more balanced life if she applied for it, but because of her resignation she simply doesn't and keeps wallowing in self-pity. That would be my headcanon to shrug this off if I'm being generous and wouldn't be this appalled by the last episode.

So are we suppose to feel bad for a lady who voluntarily chooses to live like trash? I honestly don’t know. I mean I don’t feel bad for Frank on It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia and he’s a millionaire, who chooses to live like a homeless person, because it makes him feel more alive, doing drugs and living in filth.

Edited by sifth

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2 minutes ago, sifth said:

So are we suppose to feel bad for a lady who voluntarily chooses to live like trash? I honestly don’t know. I mean I don’t feel bad for Frank on It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia and he’s a millionaire, who chooses to live like a homeless person, because it makes him feel more alive, doing drugs and living in filth.

I honestly don't know. Like I said, that was me being generous in explaining away her situation. Explaining it against the framing that was intended. So yes, the show wants us to feel sorry for her and have her anger be justified, but when looked at from an in-universe perspective it's all laughable.

Didn't she also randomly say to her son that she was clean in this episode? Since when? Two days?!?

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6 hours ago, Corvinus said:

There was money in DS9.

You know that DS9 has quite a lot of characters who are not part of The Federation. These characters are from governments that still use money. On top of that, the Federation characters on DS9 are frontier agents, so it only stands to reason they need some currency to survive. Quark even mentions in a deleted scene that he bills Star Fleet every time the Federation uses his bar, meaning frontier agents are an exception.

Notice how Joseph Sisko never asks any of his customers for money, when they frequently visit his restaurant on Earth.

Another example is in the episode where the Grand Negus is turned into a nice guy by the prophets. Quark takes him to Bashir for a physical and the Nagus thanks the doctor and offers to give him a bar of latinum. Bashir tells him, "no charge", but the Nagus insists he take it and even tells the doctor he should just donate it to charity.

Edited by sifth

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Let's assume the Federation has simply integrated the ideas of Modern Monetary Theory as state policy, circulating latinum at-will to maximize social welfare, explaining its erratic appearance throughout the economy (Mind, I don't really understand MMT before anyone nitpicks that).

Agreed with @Jace, Basilissa - As everything else in our time, this show is a question of the role of the state, and its re-writing Star Trek hard to hold a deeply regressive position.

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10 hours ago, sifth said:

btw: Don't feel bad for not recognizing Icheb. They didn't even bother getting his original actor back. For this very reason I didn't notice either, until his name was mentioned.

The reactions I've seen indicate that it wasn't apathy but a deliberate choice to not work with that particular actor due to out of show reasons.

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The Federation being in a darker place in 2399 compared to 2364 makes sense. When TNG started, the Federation had enjoyed over 70 years of stability: the Romulans had gone isolationist, the Klingons had become allies and the few conflicts the Federation had sustained (such as with the Cardassians) had been relatively short and contained. That allowed the Federation to become a truly utopian, post-scarcity society with high-minded ideals because no one was around to challenge those ideals.

Since then, the Federation has been invaded by the Borg (twice) and lost entire fleets of ships and planets to assimilation and destruction. It's fought a renewed (if brief) war the Klingons, a cold war with the Romulans, a civil war against the Maquis and an absolutely devastating war against the Dominion that killed billions and saw entire Federation planets conquered and the entire organisation brought to the brink of collapse, with hundreds of starships lost and an attempted coup by Starfleet when they felt the Federation's response was weak. The return of Voyager from the Delta Quadrant confirmed the existence of hundreds of hostile alien races and colossal numbers of Borg ships, all posing a significant mid and long-term threat to the Federation.

The Federation battening down the hatches and circling the wagons is not an unreasonable plot development after such times. TNG's vision of a future utopia (one that was particular really only to TNGTOS certainly didn't share it to the same degree, Enterprise didn't share it at all, Voyager had a confused attitude about it and DS9 interrogated it) made sense in the context of the show at that time; the context established by the prior Trek shows and films themselves - not introduced in some between-series backplot asspull - made the unquestioned continuation of that vision unsustainable and unbelievable.

In fact, even TNG outright said that the happy-happy utopia of the Federation core worlds meant very little on the harder edges of space where there were shady pleasure planets (even Risa had a dark side), dodgy junkyards and brutal places inhabited by hostile forces.

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

The reactions I've seen indicate that it wasn't apathy but a deliberate choice to not work with that particular actor due to out of show reasons.

They didn't get the original actor back because the original actor was a fucking tool.

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So... loosing lots of ships and having some planets devestated makes you forget that replicators and transporters make you a post-scarcity society and be insufferably racist towards your ally in that war.

Sure...

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7 hours ago, karaddin said:

The reactions I've seen indicate that it wasn't apathy but a deliberate choice to not work with that particular actor due to out of show reasons.

Yes, that's what everyone suspects, but it's still all speculation (no official statements or anything).

The actor seems to have been an absolute ass at conventions, including (on stage) remarks about how "effeminate" cast or crew were when he was on set, misogynistic remarks, making sure to mention how his pants became tight when Jeri Ryan bent over in-between takes... Oh, and in recent months he campaigned on Twitter to bring his character back... Wish fulfilled!

So yeah, I think that nobody wanted to work with him again.

Edited by Mindwalker

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