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Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell


Black Crow

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I might be wrong, but I took what @alienarea is saying to be a way of pointing out that Starfall is not properly located on the map according to book canon. It is said to be on an island at the mouth of the Torrentine River. In this map it is shown to the west of the river. If there is already one verifiable location shown that we know is incorrect, it seems unwise to assume that the ones we have no way to verify are. 

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Some new tinfoil to pass by you.

When Moqorro talks about the 14 flames, is he talking about the use of elemental fire from volcanos? 

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

And perhaps he was not so wrong. Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

This reminds me of Melisandre telling Jon that there is power in the Wall and he can use it, if he chooses.  She says her powers are stronger at the Wall and I think she was drawing on the power of the Wall when she burned Rattleshirt.. She seems to have overextended herself glamoring Rattleshirt, Mance, Stannis's Sword and the "Horn of Joramund".   She nearly burns up until Jon shoots Rattleshirt and this somehow releases her.  The Wall itself is awash with fiery color during the episode.

This also reminds me of Mel's campaign to wake the Stone Dragon using royal blood as the currency.  I don't believe there are any dragon eggs on Dragonstone but it is volcanic.  So I wonder if she was trying to increase her own powers by waking the stone dragon. In the same way that the 14 flames were using volcanos to access the power of elemental fire until they went too far destroying themselves and the land.

Davos calls it waking the great stone dragon.  Maybe volcanic mounts are stone dragons.

Given all the geothermal activity in the North, is it possible that the Joramund's giants in the earth are volcanic in nature and the Wall is built atop these giants?  With ice stopping the dragons from crossing and fire stopping the Others from crossing?

Mel does say that the Wall is as much her place as it is Jon's.  I doubt her increase in magic power comes from ice, but rather from fire.
 

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A Storm of Swords - Davos V

Warrior, make me brave. "I know little of dragons and less of gods . . . but the queen spoke of curses. No man is as cursed as the kinslayer, in the eyes of gods and men."

"There are no gods save R'hllor and the Other, whose name must not be spoken." Melisandre's mouth made a hard red line. "And small men curse what they cannot understand."

"I am a small man," Davos admitted, "so tell me why you need this boy Edric Storm to wake your great stone dragon, my lady." He was determined to say the boy's name as often as he could.

 Mel references small men and I think she sees herself as very large indeed and seems to be willing to do what small men will not.  While Moqorro warns about small men seeking the power of the gods.  

So perhaps the 'horn of joramund', which by description seems to be very similar to Euron's dragon horn; does wake giants in the earth, could bring down the Wall.  A horn that un-binds magic.

 

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Hmmm, no takers?  I'll just say that I think Mel's powers were dwindling along with her powders and she was seeking a way at to increase those powers at Dragonstone (a place built using sorcery).  She needed the currency of royal blood to work her magic and this had nothing to do with Stannis.  I also suspect that her fiery offerings to R'hllor have more to do with sustaining herself by consuming another's life force than it has to do with pleasing R'hllor.  She tells Stannis that sacrificing Edric will make him stronger; but I think that's a manipulation and a lie since she can't burn Edric without his say-so.  She has to convince him that it's all about him; when it's all about her.

Anyway, what are you doing to amuse yourself during self-isolation.  I have been watching Star Trek Discovery, season 1 and 2.  I've watched them several times now because everything about it from artistic design, sound design, …. everything about it is so top of class. I've also watched it with commentary and I've watched it with sub-titles.  Now I'm watching it with vodka.   

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24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Anyway, what are you doing to amuse yourself during self-isolation.  I have been watching Star Trek Discovery, season 1 and 2.  I've watched them several times now because everything about it from artistic design, sound design, …. everything about it is so top of class. I've also watched it with commentary and I've watched it with sub-titles.  Now I'm watching it with vodka.   

I have been doing a lot of yard work and gardening. Also a tad bit of cleaning the house, playing of Breath of the Wild and a lot of Netflix. Although we have been putting in a few (about 10) hours a week (I'm one of the head groundskeepers at our local State University), I'm hoping we will be returning back to full-time next week. I live alone, so I talk to my dogs and the birds and squirrels a lot, lol.

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6 minutes ago, Travis said:

I have been doing a lot of yard work and gardening. Also a tad bit of cleaning the house, playing of Breath of the Wild and a lot of Netflix. Although we have been putting in a few (about 10) hours a week (I'm one of the head groundskeepers at our local State University), I'm hoping we will be returning back to full-time next week. I live alone, so I talk to my dogs and the birds and squirrels a lot, lol.

Yah, I don't know why you can't return to work.  This is an occupation that is low contact and low risk.  I keep lobbying my local MP and Premier to ease up restrictions for this occupation.  I've also listened to radio and seen articles in newsprint advocating for the same.  I employ a young man who has just started a lawncare business recently and I have no contact with him at all, except for paying him at the beginning of the contract.  He has not been allowed to return to work and he is suffering.

Head groundskeeper sounds like a very pleasant occupation to me.  I have a little garden that I built last year.  I'm old, so I need help with my lawn and my driveway in the winter.  I don't have any pets anymore.  But I think I'd like a budgie.

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15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yah, I don't know why you can't return to work.  This is an occupation that is low contact and low risk.  I keep lobbying my local MP and Premier to ease up restrictions for this occupation.  I've also listened to radio and seen articles in newsprint advocating for the same.  I employ a young man who has just started a lawncare business recently and I have no contact with him at all, except for paying him at the beginning of the contract.  He has not been allowed to return to work and he is suffering.

Head groundskeeper sounds like a very pleasant occupation to me.  I have a little garden that I built last year.  I'm old, so I need help with my lawn and my driveway in the winter.  I don't have any pets anymore.  But I think I'd like a budgie.

Thank God, I have not lost any pay for staying home. It's not a job I'll ever get rich from doing, but the benefits are great, and I love what I do.

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17 hours ago, LynnS said:

waking the stone dragon.

 

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

Davos calls it waking the great stone dragon.  Maybe volcanic mounts are stone dragons.

IMO different characters interpret "waking the stone dragon" differently. Without knowledge of how it actually works they insert ideas that make sense to them. The dragon eggs are hard like stones, so being able to make them hatch would be "waking" them, correct?

If one person can make them hatch after many failed, then it would seem like magic.

Daenerys hatched "stone" dragon eggs in a funeral pyre,. Was it the intense heat of the fire that hatched them, or were other elements necessary? Mirri was burned alive, a punishment for tricking Daenerys.

Daenerys had already miscarried Rhaego prior to the pyre, but his soul may have already "gone into" Drogo. Is this why Drogon is so powerful? He's larger and more developed than the other two dragons. He may have the strength of the horse, Drogo, and Rhaego inside him.

40 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Anyway, what are you doing to amuse yourself during self-isolation.  I have been watching Star Trek Discovery, season 1 and 2.  I've watched them several times now because everything about it from artistic design, sound design, …. everything about it is so top of class. I've also watched it with commentary and I've watched it with sub-titles.  Now I'm watching it with vodka.   

I was already working from home, but business is down over 60%. I make enough to get by, but not enough to save for quarterly taxes! 

Our governor allowed landscapers, gardeners, and outdoor maintenance crews to return to work a couple weeks ago. Golf course reopened for members only last week with some new modifications. The cup is raised about 4 inches above ground, so rather than putting into a hole, all  you have to do now is bump the ball against the cup. That way nobody is touching a flag or placing fingers down inside the cup. All the rakes were removed from sand traps, the clubhouse is closed to the public, carts are restricted to one player unless you're from the same household, and we're not allowed to congregate. There are workers who will poke their heads out the door and ask if you'd like a beer, soda, or bottled water, and you can order food to go.

Other than golf, I've planted a garden. I've only planted the cold weather crops so far: radish, onion, lettuce, kale, carrots, peas, and potatoes. The soil isn't warm enough for the rest yet, but I did hear a funny tip someone recalled their grandfather saying. He said you'll know it's warm enough to plant if you can pull your pants down and sit your bare butt on the ground. If you can sit there comfortably without feeling cold, then it's warm enough to plant beans! hahaha! It's getting close to 70 degrees in my area, so yesterday I asked my boyfriend if he'd go plant his ass in my garden and let me know if I could plant the rest of my seeds!

I'm also renovating the main floor of my house. I had refinanced back in February, because the rates were so low! I had locked in at 3.125% only to learn they had fallen to 2.5% a week later! Even if I gave the money back to my bank it wouldn't change my new monthly payment, so I may as well proceed as planned. I'm getting new flooring throughout the main floor, new kitchen cabinets and appliances, and a new bathroom. Demolition may start as early as this Saturday. I've set up my office at my boyfriend's farm. It's actually been pretty nice being at the farm all day. I spend a lot of time outside petting the farm cats and puttering in the garden.

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OH!  Sorry for the loss of business.  Everything else sounds wonderful!  My sister is doing a kitchen renovation and it's quite exciting.  I'm thinking of growing some veg this year too in large flower boxes.  Some radish, green onions and I'm not sure what else.  Perhaps some yellow beans and savory.  I'm going to put lavender, pansies and petunias in the front garden this year.  It's still too cold to put your bare butt on the ground though.  LOL 

Golfers everywhere will be jealous.  This is another low contact, low risk activity.  I'm guessing that golf courses and lawncare services will soon follow suit where I live.  I never did golf but I used to like fishing.  That's another solitary pursuit. 

What I'm noticing is the price of gas.  Recently I topped up my gas, purchased a few things and went home, got in my pajamas and was making a sandwich for lunch and I got a knock on the door.  It was the police!  Apparently the gas store attendant didn't charge me for my gas (I didn't even notice) and he had to call the police, look at video, get a driver's licence, identify the owner and send the cop to my door to get his money.  The police officer was very nice, but said he had to report it as theft!  But essentially he was the messenger.  

The shock was not in having the cops come to my door to deliver a message and me in my pajamas.  The shock was that 1/2 tank of gas only cost me $12.99. 

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22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The shock was not in having the cops come to my door to deliver a message and me in my pajamas.  The shock was that 1/2 tank of gas only cost me $12.99. 

I always pay at the pump and am really loving curbside pickup for groceries! Yeah, gas is really low here too. I drive a Honda Pilot which has a 21 gallon tank. I filled up last week for $24 - I did have about an 1/8 of a tank though. Gas is around $1.50 per gallon in my area.

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34 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

IMO different characters interpret "waking the stone dragon" differently. Without knowledge of how it actually works they insert ideas that make sense to them. The dragon eggs are hard like stones, so being able to make them hatch would be "waking" them, correct?

If one person can make them hatch after many failed, then it would seem like magic.

Daenerys hatched "stone" dragon eggs in a funeral pyre,. Was it the intense heat of the fire that hatched them, or were other elements necessary? Mirri was burned alive, a punishment for tricking Daenerys.

This is where I think the story Mel throws out to Stannis et al is kind of screwy.  It's more like a diversion from her real intention.  She isn't talking about waking dragons from stone as in dragon eggs.  She is talking about waking the Great Stone Dragon according to Davos.  I think the Great Stone Dragon is another name for a volcano.  From Moqorro we get the warning about the fourteen flames and what happens when you go too far.  I'm not sure who the small men were who delved too deep; but the dragon lords come to mind.

The flames were so hot they even consumed the dragons themselves.  I think we can look at Dragonstone (built with sorcery) as something comparable to the other seats (volcanos) of the Dragon Lords.  Moqorro seems to imply that they were drawing power from elemental fire and went too far.  He calls it the god's own wrath.

So I'm thinking that Melisandre's interest in Dragonstone has more to do with accessing that kind of power, more than it has to do with Stannis but she spins a tale about the prophecies for control,  She wants to be in the driver's seat.

Then she gets to the Wall (another place built with sorcery) and realizes that her magic is becoming stronger there.

So my conclusion is that the Great Stone Dragon is a volcanic sea mount rather than someone who fits the prophecy for waking dragons from stone (dragon eggs).

 

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Minnesota is a large producer of turkeys and pork and nearly all the plants are closed due to internal outbreaks. My district's Congressman Colin Peterson is head of the federal Ag Committee. He stated yesterday that we are three weeks away from no pork in grocery stores, but it's already scarce at my local Walmart. The kid that loaded my vehicle yesterday said that it's pretty "picked over" and their stock is really low. Personally, I think eating less meat would actually improve the health of a lot of people, and if everybody were forced into planting their own gardens, we could theoretically see a decrease in heart diseases and cancer. 

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is where I think the story Mel throws out to Stannis et al is kind of screwy.  It's more like a diversion from her real intention.  She isn't talking about waking dragons from stone as in dragon eggs.  She is talking about waking the Great Stone Dragon according to Davos.  I think the Great Stone Dragon is another name for a volcano.  From Moqorro we get the warning about the fourteen flames and what happens when you go too far.  I'm not sure who the small men were who delved too deep; but the dragon lords come to mind.

This is quite possible. Generating a volcanic eruption would destroy a lot of ice and snow, but wouldn't it also actually exacerbate an extended winter afterward?

 

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Daenerys hatched "stone" dragon eggs in a funeral pyre,. Was it the intense heat of the fire that hatched them, or were other elements necessary? Mirri was burned alive, a punishment for tricking Daenerys.

Dany was keeping the eggs on hot coals.  Then she goes through MMD's ritual and ends up on the funeral pyre as the holy blood component of the sacrifice.  Somewhere in there she sacrifices her unborn son.  This seems to be right combination of things to hatch dragon eggs but it's unclear to me where Dany got this knowledge.  

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4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

This is quite possible. Generating a volcanic eruption would destroy a lot of ice and snow, but wouldn't it also actually exacerbate an extended winter afterward?

I guess what I'm thinking is that fire and ice magic are both used at the Wall and held in a kind of stasis or equilibrium.  The great lore that built the Wall seem to stop both the undead, WW's and dragons from crossing.  I'm not sure we are talking about volcanic eruption at the Wall but a return to a natural state.  The warning that the Wall will fall, may refer to breaking the wards for fire and ice.  It could also refer to the unnatural state of the Wall, where breaking the wards means that the weight of the Wall can't be sustained, and it will fall down on itself.

Although, I still like the idea that it will be Jon who brings down the Wall and the imagery that he will 'plink' it in such a way that it dissolves into ice crystals and blows away. 

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19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Mel does say that the Wall is as much her place as it is Jon's.  I doubt her increase in magic power comes from ice, but rather from fire.

I think that looking for a connection between the ice of the Wall and fire is too literal. Mel also says that the Wall is once of the great hinges of the world and speaks of the spells buried deep within it.

I think that simply speaking it is a place of magick and that what she refers to is the power of that magic, which may indeed recharge her batteries

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Dany was keeping the eggs on hot coals.  Then she goes through MMD's ritual and ends up on the funeral pyre as the holy blood component of the sacrifice.  Somewhere in there she sacrifices her unborn son.  This seems to be right combination of things to hatch dragon eggs but it's unclear to me where Dany got this knowledge.  

I think there are two possible ways that Daenerys learned of how to hatch the eggs. 

1) There really is a "wheel of time". If GRRM is borrowing Robert Jordan's idea of a wheel of time influencing events by "weaving it's pattern", then there would be unseen forces "making" things happen.

2) Someone is whispering instructions to Daenerys while she sleeps via the use of a glass candle.

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I guess what I'm thinking is that fire and ice magic are both used at the Wall and held in a kind of stasis or equilibrium.  The great lore that built the Wall seem to stop both the undead, WW's and dragons from crossing.  I'm not sure we are talking about volcanic eruption at the Wall but a return to a natural state.  The warning that the Wall will fall, may refer to breaking the wards for fire and ice.  It could also refer to the unnatural state of the Wall, where breaking the wards means that the weight of the Wall can't be sustained, and it will fall down on itself.

Although, I still like the idea that it will be Jon who brings down the Wall and the imagery that he will 'plink' it in such a way that it dissolves into ice crystals and blows away. 

Melisandre is tapping into the magic of the warded great hinge that is preventing magical beings from entering the realm. The great irony of her situation is that destroying the Great Other may require destroying the Wall, which would in turn mean an end to her abilities.

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that looking for a connection between the ice of the Wall and fire is too literal. Mel also says that the Wall is once of the great hinges of the world and speaks of the spells buried deep within it.

I think that simply speaking it is a place of magick and that what she refers to is the power of that magic, which may indeed recharge her batteries

Yes. She's basically "plugging" herself into a source of magic.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Dany was keeping the eggs on hot coals.  Then she goes through MMD's ritual and ends up on the funeral pyre as the holy blood component of the sacrifice.  Somewhere in there she sacrifices her unborn son.  This seems to be right combination of things to hatch dragon eggs but it's unclear to me where Dany got this knowledge.  

If the dragon eggs were partly affected by the blood magic ritual, then it may have been dumb luck.  As to hatching the eggs at the funeral pyre, the hints that we are given is that it was knowledge embedded in her DNA combined with lessons she learned about blood magic from Mirri: 

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Dany poured the oil over the woman's head herself.  "I thank you, Mirri Maz Duur," she said, "for the lessons you have taught me."

...

"I will," Dany said, "but it is not your screams I want, only your life.  I remember what you told me.  Only death can pay for life."

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She had sensed the truth of it long ago, Dany thought as she took a step closer to the conflagration, but the brazier had not been hot enough.

So going back to her first attempt to hatch the eggs:

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Was it madness that seized her then, born of fear?  Or some strange wisdom buried in her blood?  Dany could not have said.  She heard her own voice saying, "Ser Jorah, light the brazier"

...

When the coals were afire, Dany sent Ser Jorah from her.  She had to be alone to do what she must do.  This is madness, she told herself as she lifted the black-and-scarlet egg from the velvet.  It will only crack and burn, and it's so beautiful, Ser Jorah will call me a fool if I ruin it, and yet, and yet ... 

Cradling the egg with both hands, she carried it to the fire and pushed it down amongst the burning coals.  The black scales seemed to glow as they drank the hear.  Flames licked against the stone with small red tongues.  Dany placed the other two eggs beside the black one in the fire.  As she stepped back from the brazier, the breath trembled in her throat.

She watched until th ecoals had turned to ashes.  Drifting sparks floated up and out of the smoke-hole.  Heat shimmered in waves around the dragon's eggs.  And that was all.

Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, Ser Jorah had said.  Dany gazed at her eggs sadly.

So it appeared that she had an instinct (perhaps embedded in her genes)  that fire was needed to hatch the dragon eggs.  And after her first failure to hatch the eggs to the , she learned that she needed to sacrifice a life or lives to bring life to the dragons, and the fire had to be much hotter than what she used in the brazier.

There is a possibility that she was helped come to this conclusion in her dreams, specifically her last dragon dream:

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"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

... She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

... Drogo held her in strong arms... "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings and the world took flame.

"... don't want to wake the dragon do you?"

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful... One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind.   "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone...

"... don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Viserys stood before her, screaming... The molten gold trickled down his face like was, burning deep channels in his flesh...

"... don't want to wake the dragon ... "

Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds.  And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out.  She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash...

"... want to wake the dragon..."

... "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward...

...

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whispering of stars.

I do wonder if her dream was subtly pushing her forward, implying the sacrifices that had been and that still needed to be to finally wake the dragon.  The only difference is, instead of Jorah being sacrificed, Mirri ended up taking his place.  But the last bit intrigues me the most.  What were the stars whispering to her?  Was this when she received the instructions which led to the funeral ritual?

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12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

What were the stars whispering to her?  Was this when she received the instructions which led to the funeral ritual?

Well, whispering of stars suggests that she is receiving the information while she sleeps.

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39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that simply speaking it is a place of magick and that what she refers to is the power of that magic, which may indeed recharge her batteries

heh, heh, recharging her batteries.  I like that.

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I do wonder if her dream was subtly pushing her forward, implying the sacrifices that had been and that still needed to be to finally wake the dragon.  The only difference is, instead of Jorah being sacrificed, Mirri ended up taking his place.  But the last bit intrigues me the most.  What were the stars whispering to her?  Was this when she received the instructions which led to the funeral ritual?

This whispering of stars calls Quaithe to mind.  The one who can come to you in your dreams and and doesn't Dany see her with a face full of stars?

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This whispering of stars calls Quaithe to mind.  The one who can come to you in your dreams and and doesn't Dany see her with a face full of stars?

That's my suspicion as well.  The only other possibility is Marwyn.  What makes me dubious about Marwyn is that he seems to have only learned about Dany late in the game.  If he had a glass candle and was communicating with Dany, you would think that he would have set forth to find her much earlier.  

Quaithe in fact does travel to Dany much earlier in the game.

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