Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

[dialt]

@MelifeatherIt's an interesting take and I see the merit of it.

And beside the fact that I really do believe that we know too little to rule out one thing or another, I think that, overall, we agree on the general idea that whatever happened is echoed by more recent events.

That's a given - at least between us - I think.

However, each one of us is doomed to add more weight to a detail (or more) rather than another. I probably do that with time-gap Harrenal-Rebellion and therefore to the idea that she must have felt something... and something not good.

But I would say this... in my eyes the version of story that you just told works even better if Ashara had time to realize that she was pregnant and to inform Ned. If she did that, but no marriage proposal arrived - maybe because Richard objected, just because marriages are arranged on the basis of politics and allengiances -  then she had even more reasons to be bitter towards the Starks. 

And that would add the revenge/betrayl that comparing Robb's story to that of Ned/Ashara is missing. Ashara would be the Freys and whoever she helped/plotted with the Lannisters/Boltons. 

Not that I want to change your mind. It's that - from my prospective - your vision is even more compelling if I add that to the picture,

[Melifeather]

37 minutes ago, lalt said:

@MelifeatherIt's an interesting take and I see the merit of it.

And beside the fact that I really do believe that we know too little to rule out one thing or another, I think that, overall, we agree on the general idea that whatever happened is echoed by more recent events.

That's a given - at least between us - I think.

However, each one of us is doomed to add more weight to a detail (or more) rather than another. I probably do that with time-gap Harrenal-Rebellion and therefore to the idea that she must have felt something... and something not good.

But I would say this... in my eyes the version of story that you just told works even better if Ashara had time to realize that she was pregnant and to inform Ned. If she did that, but no marriage proposal arrived - maybe because Richard objected, just because marriages are arranged on the basis of politics and allengiances -  then she had even more reasons to be bitter towards the Starks. 

And that would add the revenge/betrayl that comparing Robb's story to that of Ned/Ashara is missing. Ashara would be the Freys and whoever she helped/plotted with the Lannisters/Boltons. 

Not that I want to change your mind. It's that - from my prospective - your vision is even more compelling if I add that to the picture,

If there was a betrayal during Ned's time, who would Ashara have sided with against Ned? It's Lady Barbary that holds the Starks in contempt. Robert's Rebellion was successful, because the winning side made alliances and kept their promises. Robb failed, because he broke his promises and angered his allies.

I see Sansa as a mirror to Ashara. Sansa is concealing her identity and pretending to be Alayne. I think Ashara did the same and assumed the Wylla identity, which would mean that Ned didn't really lie to Robert about who Jon Snow's mother was.

[dialt]

48 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

If there was a betrayal during Ned's time, who would Ashara have sided with against Ned? It's Lady Barbary that holds the Starks in contempt. Robert's Rebellion was successful, because the winning side made alliances and kept their promises. Robb failed, because he broke his promises and angered his allies.

In my view Ashara+someone else (from Varys to whoever else wanted the rebellion) is like Lysa/Littlefinger.

That Lady Dustin holds contempt is something we know, because we read her words. We never read those of Ashara on the matter.
So any assumption, is legit until proved wrong.

If you add the promises to the picture, a promise was made between Brandon and Cat and unlike/contrary to Robb, Brandon was about to keep that promise. He coudn't only because he was killed before. Why? Maybe because of a betrayal/plot caused by the opposite reasons that led to the red wedding? If so, it'd work perfectly.

However, because of that Brandon's brother had to wed Cat, just like Robb's uncle had to wed lady Frey. The difference being that Cat is loyalist and that an alliance that provided the rebels of another army was confirmed by that marriage. Lady Frey rapresents the traitors and the breaking of an alliace and of army. One war ends although not entirely. The other really begins. Etc..

But I guess here's where we have to agree to disagree.

Like said, I don't want to chance your mind. My aim was only to suggest an alternative, less investigated - as far as I know - chance.

[LynnS]

I was going to do something on all the tinfoil I've got hanging on Euron and I went looking for the link on the Foresaken Chapter to refresh my mind.  And then....

Spoiler

I hit the part where Aeron is standing in bilge water up to his waist with worms crawling in his hair and I started gagging.

So... no can do.

[alienarea]

Through the chill of winter
Running across a frozen lake
Hunters hard on his trail
All odds are against him
With a family to provide for
But one thing he must keep alive
Will the wolf survive?

 

[dialt]

On 5/9/2020 at 1:42 AM, alienarea said:

Through the chill of winter
Running across a frozen lake
Hunters hard on his trail
All odds are against him
With a family to provide for
But one thing he must keep alive
Will the wolf survive?

 

Hunting hard and wolves surviving? Well...

AGOT  About our 3 Black brothers “Nine days they had been riding... hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders”
Basically they’re "hunting” the willings (see next).  Plus: "Mormont said as we should track them, and we did," 

ASOS: the chapter begins with a hunting scene. 3 black brothers by order or Lord Commander Mormot are are tracking a bear footprint. Chett to the dogs "Track, you bastards. That's a bear print. You want some meat or no? Find!"
In addition, once it starts snowing Chett understands that the mutiny plan is doomed. And this is what he says
"They won't need Dywen nor Bannen to hunt us down neither, not if we're tracking through fresh snow." 

That to say that "hunting people/animals and tracking animals/people" are the same thing.

ADWD: 3 wolves - that Varamyr calls "his brothers" - are following = tracking human smell and hunting them. And we read this "As he raced through the trees, his packmates followed hard on his heels" (cf.: "riding... hard on the track" from AGOT).

And if one might be tracked/hunted"- as for ASOS - it's not even over

AFFC: "The tales are not the same," insisted Armen. "Dragons in Asshai, dragons in Qarth, dragons in Meereen, Dothraki dragons, dragons freeing slaves… each telling differs from the last." "Only in details." […] "All speak of dragons, and a beautiful young queen."
One may argue that the tales are tracking the path followed by Dany and her dragons so far. Her 3 children = 3 siblings.

Prior to that in ACOK, Shereen wants to know if drangons are real, if they're coming back to life because in her dreams "they were coming to eat me". = they hunt her. And the readers know that Dany's 3 children are indeed real.

That said

AGOT BRAN I 

- “The pups may die anyway, despite all you do.”
“They won’t die,” Robb said. “We won’t let them die.”

And taking into account that the ADWD prologue is fundamentally about Varamyr not "dying" by warging one of his wolves...  I start to have a bad feeling. Even more so, because of this:

AGOT BRAN I

- “Put away your sword, Greyjoy,” Robb said. For a moment he sounded as commanding as their father, like the lord he would someday be. “We will keep these pups.”
“You cannot do that, boy,” said Harwin, who was Hullen’s son.
“It be a mercy to kill them,” Hullen said.
Bran looked to his lord father for rescue, but got only a frown, a furrowed brow. “Hullen speaks truly, son. Better a swift death than a hard one from cold and starvation.”

 ADWD prologue:

- The wolves were as famished as he was, gaunt and cold and hungry, and the prey … two men and a woman, a babe in arms, fleeing from defeat to death. They would have perished soon in any case, from exposure or starvation. This way was better, quicker. A mercy.

Notice that "gaunt" and cold, obviously, are the Others as for Will (AGOT, prol.). Not only:

- "Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. " - AGOT - prol.

- "The warg stopped beneath a tree and sniffed, his grey-brown fur dappled by shadow" - ADWD - prol.

[side note: a dappled/spotted skin/fur is another leit motive in all the 5 prologues: in ACOK Cressen's hands are dappled, in ASOS Chett's face is, by the boils; in AFFC there's the story of "Spotted Pete the Pig Boy"]

If we add, what Nymeria/Arya thinks when she finds Cat's dead body:

- The white thing lay facedown in the mud, her dead flesh wrinkled and pale, cold blood trickling from her throat. Rise, she thought. Rise and eat and run with us.  - ASOS ARYA XIII

Then we have to entertain the idea that Others and Direwolves/their wargs (not just ordinary skinchangers) are pretty much the same thing.

Beside this, @LynnS to continue the conversation we had elsewhere... I just read your post about Varys in the conversation about the obsidian candles. And I notices this:

 "The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke." ACOK - Tyrion X

Because - as you can imagine at this point - this is another leit motive that one may find in all the 5 prologues.
And in my opion, overall, it has to be connected with sacrifices or just killing of people that wasn't capable to speak.

In other words, they were killed without being able of speaking their voices.

That because the same scene of ADWD BRAN III is echoed by both AGOT BRAN I and ADWD Prologue

ADWD - BRAN III

 -  “No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

AGOT - BRAN I

Bran gave a wordless cry of dismay.
“The sooner the better,” Theon Greyjoy agreed. He drew his sword. “Give the beast here, Bran.”
The little thing squirmed against him, as if it heard and understood. “No!” Bran cried out fiercely. “It’s mine.”

ADWD  prol.

- No, Father, please, he tried to say, but dogs cannot speak the tongues of men, so all that emerged was a piteous whine. The axe crashed into the middle of the old dog's skull, and inside the hovel the boy let out a scream

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, lalt said:

Hunting hard and wolves surviving? Well...

AGOT  About our 3 Black brothers “Nine days they had been riding... hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders”
Basically they’re "hunting” the willings (see next).  Plus: "Mormont said as we should track them, and we did," 

ASOS: the chapter begins with a hunting scene. 3 black brothers by order or Lord Commander Mormot are are tracking a bear footprint. Chett to the dogs "Track, you bastards. That's a bear print. You want some meat or no? Find!"
In addition, once it starts snowing Chett understands that the mutiny plan is doomed. And this is what he says
"They won't need Dywen nor Bannen to hunt us down neither, not if we're tracking through fresh snow." 

That to say that "hunting people/animals and tracking animals/people" are the same thing.

ADWD: 3 wolves - that Varamyr calls "his brothers" - are following = tracking human smell and hunting them. And we read this "As he raced through the trees, his packmates followed hard on his heels" (cf.: "riding... hard on the track" from AGOT).

And if one might be tracked/hunted"- as for ASOS - it's not even over

AFFC: "The tales are not the same," insisted Armen. "Dragons in Asshai, dragons in Qarth, dragons in Meereen, Dothraki dragons, dragons freeing slaves… each telling differs from the last." "Only in details." […] "All speak of dragons, and a beautiful young queen."
One may argue that the tales are tracking the path followed by Dany and her dragons so far. Her 3 children = 3 siblings.

Prior to that in ACOK, Shereen wants to know if drangons are real, if they're coming back to life because in her dreams "they were coming to eat me". = they hunt her. And the readers know that Dany's 3 children are indeed real.

That said

AGOT BRAN I 

- “The pups may die anyway, despite all you do.”
“They won’t die,” Robb said. “We won’t let them die.”

And taking into account that the ADWD prologue is fundamentally about Varamyr not "dying" by warging one of his wolves...  I start to have a bad feeling. Even more so, because of this:

AGOT BRAN I

- “Put away your sword, Greyjoy,” Robb said. For a moment he sounded as commanding as their father, like the lord he would someday be. “We will keep these pups.”
“You cannot do that, boy,” said Harwin, who was Hullen’s son.
“It be a mercy to kill them,” Hullen said.
Bran looked to his lord father for rescue, but got only a frown, a furrowed brow. “Hullen speaks truly, son. Better a swift death than a hard one from cold and starvation.”

 ADWD prologue:

- The wolves were as famished as he was, gaunt and cold and hungry, and the prey … two men and a woman, a babe in arms, fleeing from defeat to death. They would have perished soon in any case, from exposure or starvation. This way was better, quicker. A mercy.

Notice that "gaunt" and cold, obviously, are the Others as for Will (AGOT, prol.). Not only:

- "Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. " - AGOT - prol.

- "The warg stopped beneath a tree and sniffed, his grey-brown fur dappled by shadow" - ADWD - prol.

[side note: a dappled/spotted skin/fur is another leit motive in all the 5 prologues: in ACOK Cressen's hands are dappled, in ASOS Chett's face is, by the boils; in AFFC there's the story of "Spotted Pete the Pig Boy"]

If we add, what Nymeria/Arya thinks when she finds Cat's dead body:

- The white thing lay facedown in the mud, her dead flesh wrinkled and pale, cold blood trickling from her throat. Rise, she thought. Rise and eat and run with us.  - ASOS ARYA XIII

Then we have to entertain the idea that Others and Direwolves/their wargs (not just ordinary skinchangers) are pretty much the same thing.

Beside this, @LynnS to continue the conversation we had elsewhere... I just read your post about Varys in the conversation about the obsidian candles. And I notices this:

 "The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke." ACOK - Tyrion X

Because - as you can imagine at this point - this is another leit motive that one may find in all the 5 prologues.
And in my opion, overall, it has to be connected with sacrifices or just killing of people that wasn't capable to speak.

In other words, they were killed without being able of speaking their voices.

That because the same scene of ADWD BRAN III is echoed by both AGOT BRAN I and ADWD Prologue

ADWD - BRAN III

 -  “No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

AGOT - BRAN I

Bran gave a wordless cry of dismay.
“The sooner the better,” Theon Greyjoy agreed. He drew his sword. “Give the beast here, Bran.”
The little thing squirmed against him, as if it heard and understood. “No!” Bran cried out fiercely. “It’s mine.”

ADWD  prol.

- No, Father, please, he tried to say, but dogs cannot speak the tongues of men, so all that emerged was a piteous whine. The axe crashed into the middle of the old dog's skull, and inside the hovel the boy let out a scream

It's the lyrics of verse 1 of "Will the wolf the survive?" by Los Lobos from 1984. Google this, look at the cover, and compare to the Starks' sigil.

Was that an inspiration for GRRM?

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, lalt said:

Beside this, @LynnS to continue the conversation we had elsewhere... I just read your post about Varys in the conversation about the obsidian candles. And I notices this:

 "The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke." ACOK - Tyrion X

Sorry, I'm not really following your meaning about prologues.  You are trying to find a way in which the prologues are connected to each other?

As far as Varys not understanding the language that was spoken; I take it to mean a language he doesn't know.  Missendei knows 19 different languages.  

What is also interesting is that Varys calls this sorcerer a certain man.  It sounds to me like he knows the identity of this man now. 

[Melifeather]

21 hours ago, lalt said:

[side note: a dappled/spotted skin/fur is another leit motive in all the 5 prologues: in ACOK Cressen's hands are dappled, in ASOS Chett's face is, by the boils; in AFFC there's the story of "Spotted Pete the Pig Boy"]

I don't know what "leit motive" means, but I agree that dappled/spotted/spattered/freckles/spots are meant to be a repeated pattern and possibly foreshadow death. Micah the butcher's boy was red-haired and freckled. Ygritte was red-haired and freckled. Spotted Sylva is freckled, is the heir to Spottswood, and her family's sigil is a spotted leopard. Rosamund was painted with red-spots. Wenda the white "fawn" suggests she may have had the spots of a fawn. The white walkers are dappled. Theon dreams of Lyanna in a white gown spattered with blood. The numbers three and nine are also repeated patterns. I believe they are evidence of a wheel of time or time loops at play, a Dr Strange type device like the Eye of Agamotto to defeat the Others. Take it or leave it as you will.

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I don't know what "leit motive" means, but I agree that dappled/spotted/spattered/freckles/spots are meant to be a repeated pattern and possibly foreshadow death. Micah the butcher's boy was red-haired and freckled. Ygritte was red-haired and freckled. Spotted Sylva is freckled, is the heir to Spottswood, and her family's sigil is a spotted leopard. Rosamund was painted with red-spots. Wenda the white "fawn" suggests she may have had the spots of a fawn. The white walkers are dappled. Theon dreams of Lyanna in a white gown spattered with blood. The numbers three and nine are also repeated patterns. I believe they are evidence of a wheel of time or time loops at play, a Dr Strange type device like the Eye of Agamotto to defeat the Others. Take it or leave it as you will.

In German, a Leitmotif is a guiding principle, not sure that is what lalt meant.

[dialt]

20 hours ago, alienarea said:

In German, a Leitmotif is a guiding principle, not sure that is what lalt meant.

I meant that, but in the sense of a recurring topic or detail, more than a guiding principle. Altrought, if something keeps popping up maybe there's a "guiding principle = a meaning" we have to identify.

23 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I agree that dappled/spotted/spattered/freckles/spots are meant to be a repeated pattern and possibly foreshadow death. Micah the butcher's boy was red-haired and freckled. Ygritte was red-haired and freckled. Spotted Sylva is freckled, is the heir to Spottswood, and her family's sigil is a spotted leopard. Rosamund was painted with red-spots. Wenda the white "fawn" suggests she may have had the spots of a fawn. The white walkers are dappled. Theon dreams of Lyanna in a white gown spattered with blood. 

So are the children of the forest...

But here's the thing, because - sure - we may find many examples of the same "thing" in the books. However, my question is why it has to be highlighted in 5 prologues out of 5? I mean, just because that (as well as others) is a repeated pattern throughout the series, it's not necessary to have at least one more case in each freaking prologue. We could/would "get it" in spite of that.

Therefore, I am wondering if it is so because - beside a symbolic meaning - there's something more we can deduce. And eventually, how? In fact:

23 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The numbers three and nine are also repeated patterns. I believe they are evidence of a wheel of time or time loops at play, a Dr Strange type device like the Eye of Agamotto to defeat the Others. Take it or leave it as you will.

Yes, 3 and 9 are particularly important and recurring numbers in the books. But we don't have the number 9 in every prologue. Whereas the number 3 - and who knows how many symbolic meanings it has - is always there.

Too many times I would say. So I looked for a more specific pattern - for a "3 of something that's always the same" - to narrow down the istances and I found out, that in each one of the 5 prologues there is at least one "party of 3 people/animals/etc.." and in any case a "party of 3 brothers/siblings"

Spoiler

AGOT
Will, Gared and Royce makes a party of 3 people: 3 black brothers.

ACOK
- When first he came to Dragonstone, the army of stone grotesques had made him uneasy, but as the years passed he had grown used to them. Now he thought of them as old friends. The three of them watched the sky together with foreboding.
- Robert, Stannis, Renly… three sons he had raised 
- An ugly little girl and a sad fool, and maester makes three. 

ASOS
The chapter begins with a party of 3 black brothers - Chett, Small Paul and Lark – trying to hunt a bear. On their way back, they meet another party of 3 black brothers: Green, Dolorous Edd and Sam practicing archery. 

AFFC
- that was what the stranger had said the night Rosey brought the two of them together. 
Rosey (1) + Pete and the Alchemist (2) = 3
- A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face (1), the body of a lion (2), the wings of a hawk (3). 
A sphinx is a riddle just because it is a party of 3 itself. 

Anyways, in this chapter there's another riddle: “The dragons has 3 heads”. 
- "No dragon has ever had three heads except on shields and banner," Armen the Acolyte said firmly.
- “On one side was a three-headed dragon, on the other the head of some dead king” 
As we know, the sigil of house Targaryen represents Aegon the Conqueror and his 2 sisters = a party of 3 siblings.
Furthermore, the point of view of Alleras and Leo is that the dragons people talk about, are true dragons. And we know that they're right. That the tales they heard, are about Dany’s 3 dragons, her 3 children = 3 siblings.

ADWD
The chapter begins with the pack of 3 wolves, that Varamyr calls "my brothers". Later on, he will think about his family dogs - Loptail, Sniff, the Growle: another party of 3.

TO RECAP: 
In each chapter there’s one or more "party of 3 people/animals". And in each chapter at least one of them is a party of 3 brothers/siblings: 3 black brothers - the 3 Baratheons - 3 black brothers - the 3 Targaryens of the House banner plus Dany’s 3 dragons – Varamyr’s wolves brothers.
 

To me it's just too specif and obssessive to be random. And if it has to do.. say...  with dany's dragons, or the 3 heads of the dragon - no matter how important it is - do we really need to be reminded of it in each prologue? I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

23 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I believe they are evidence of a wheel of time or time loops at play, a Dr Strange type device like the Eye of Agamotto to defeat the Others. Take it or leave it as you will.

Exactly. Just because history repets itself in the current time-lines we see the echo of ancient eventes.

Though my idea/speculation/doubt - call it as you prefer - is that the purpose of these 5/5 patterns - in particular - is that of pointing what exactly set in motion the wheel. In other words, that they may be our best clues. The right dots.

That if we look at them comprehensively, if - so to speack - we pull the strings, maybe we can see  correct set of "ancient events that set the whell in motion", solve a couple of mysteries and/or foresee the endgame.

On 5/10/2020 at 7:12 PM, LynnS said:

Sorry, I'm not really following your meaning about prologues.  You are trying to find a way in which the prologues are connected to each other?

The answer is yes, I am looking for/tracking those things that do that. 

On 5/10/2020 at 7:12 PM, LynnS said:

As far as Varys not understanding the language that was spoken; I take it to mean a language he doesn't know.  Missendei knows 19 different languages.  

Yep. That's the point.  A language he doesn't know. 

Spoiler

AGOT
- The Other said something in a language that Will did not know.

ACOK
- "We have found the most splendid fool," […] " He juggles and riddles and does magic, and he can sing prettily in four tongues..."
Something that Patchface cannot do anymore. Plus:
- "He wondered if his gargoyles had ever seen its like. They had been here so much longer than he had, and would still be here long after he was gone. If stone tongues could speak..."

ASOS
- Ollo Lophand now, he was talking about sailing back to Tyrosh (...) Chett had weighed going with him, but he didn't speak their wet girly tongue.

AFFC
- The Mage was not like other maesters. People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues.

He's the only character in the prologues, who knows how to speak other toungues. But beside the fact that he is the Mage - and it could be important - it's simply the other side of the same coin. The "topic" is always the same.

ADWD
- No, Father, please, he tried to say, but dogs cannot speak the tongues of men, so all that emerged was a piteous whine.

It took me a while to notice this, because as you can see, in some cases it's just a random information - not particularly important for the plot of the chapter - that however, it's given. And it's a good example of what I believe might be the importance of those patterns. Because, again, sure, you may find other passages/chapters in the serie that seem to address the same issue.

But not many. I personally find interesting that one of the purpose of the game Arya plays with the Maif is that one can learn the tongue of the other. But in any case, I believe - and this is of course speculation - that this idea of "speacking someone else's tounge" and as a consequence that of "being able to speack your mind/truth" has to do with sacrifices/killing.

Not only because that of Varys is another good example of proximity of the 2 concepts (a sacrifice/ritual + not understanding a language), but because when I re-read the Bran povs I quoted in the previous post, the number of details that suddenly matches the list of patterns I deduced from the prologues becomes impressive (in that post, I mentioned a couple of them. But there are many more).

And in my mind, is like ok... this is the moment to pull those strings. And this is the conclusion I came up with. But that's - in all evidence - just my idea.

 

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, lalt said:

Though my idea/speculation/doubt - call it as you prefer - is that the purpose of these 5/5 patterns - in particular - is that of pointing what exactly set in motion the wheel. In other words, that they may be our best clues. The right dots.

 

If you are familiar with Dr Strange, he used the Eye of Agamotto to place time in a continual loop in order to defeat Dormammu. Bran seems like a Dr Strange-inspired character and Bloodraven is the Sorcerer Supreme. The Others are Dormammu. Maybe to defeat the Others time had to be placed into a loop, never allowing the Others to advance past the Wall? All the historical events that occurred right up until when the time loop was put in place are repeated and the people who play major parts get "reborn".

[LynnS]

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only . . .

Beneath the dragonglass was an old warhorn, made from an auroch's horn and banded in bronze. Jon shook the dirt from inside it, and a stream of arrowheads fell out. He let them fall, and pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in, rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick, a double weave, damp but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He seized a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

The Magnar sent a dozen men riding west and a dozen more east, to climb the highest hills they could find and watch for any sign of rangers in the wood or riders on the high ice. The Thenns carried bronze-banded warhorns to give warning should the Watch be sighted. The other wildlings fell in behind Jarl, Jon and Ygritte with the rest. This was to be the young raider's hour of glory.

What do you make of this?  Could it be that the dragonglass cache was stolen from the Thenns by a ranger of the Night Watch?  Benjen maybe?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

What do you make of this?  Could it be that the dragonglass cache was stolen from the Thenns by a ranger of the Night Watch?  Benjen maybe?

I actually look at it from the perspective of the wildlings since I believe they are the Others. I think the wildlings wanted to hide any known stash of dragonglass so that they couldn't be used as weapons against them. I don't think they intended Jon to find the stash - it was Ghost that led Jon to it. It could have been Benjen's cloak though, because I do think he's dead and the wildlings know it. They only allowed Jafer and Othor to be discovered so that it would lure the Watch into sending out a search party for Benjen - and provide an opportunity to reduce the numbers of the Watch. If the horn belonged to Benjen, then they were hiding it, but if the horn belonged to the Thenns then it may have been cached for future use.

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I actually look at it from the perspective of the wildlings since I believe they are the Others. I think the wildlings wanted to hide any known stash of dragonglass so that they couldn't be used as weapons against them. I don't think they intended Jon to find the stash - it was Ghost that led Jon to it. It could have been Benjen's cloak though, because I do think he's dead and the wildlings know it. They only allowed Jafer and Othor to be discovered so that it would lure the Watch into sending out a search party for Benjen - and provide an opportunity to reduce the numbers of the Watch. If the horn belonged to Benjen, then they were hiding it, but if the horn belonged to the Thenns then it may have been cached for future use.

Well I don't think the horn belonged to Benjen because it fits the description of the kind of horn that the Thenns carry.

If Benjen is still around; he has already had an encounter with the WWs.  I say that because Othor and Jafr left with Benjen on a ranging.  Benjen has been first ranger for a long time and that implies that he has a level of survival skill north of the Wall.  He may know the underground passages and bolt-holes that allow him to evade and hide.  He may know more about the history the Watch and the Others to recognize that dragonglass will kill the Others and he also may know where to find it (Thenns).

The rangers cloak could be any dead ranger since they have been disappearing.  Benjen may be dead.  There is really nothing to go on.

I don't rule out Coldhands procuring the dragonglass and hiding it near the Fist of the First Men where Ghost will find it.   

 

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't rule out Coldhands procuring the dragonglass and hiding it near the Fist of the First Men where Ghost will find it.   

This would preclude that someone knew the attack would happen, which might support a case for Coldhands, but it also makes a case for the wildlings. 

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

This would preclude that someone knew the attack would happen, which might support a case for Coldhands, but it also makes a case for the wildlings. 

Well, with Mormont out on a great ranging; that might not go unnoticed and the Fist of the First Men seems a likely stop on a military tour of this size.

[LynnS]

Here's something I posted on the general forums in response to the question:  Do you think George has ironed out the lore and magic of the Others?  I think I've mentioned something about this before but have since expanded on the idea.  It's not something that can be supported by the text at this point.  I've also added a quote at the bottom since I last posted it.

Also this is an interesting article that I had not seen before (hat tip FictionisntReal):

https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2015/10/16/no-the-white-walkers-arent-good-guys/

 

I think he has put quite a bit thought into it.  Starting with the legends.  In particular, I'm thinking of the Last Hero and the first appearance of the Others.  We are told he defeated the Others to end the long night.   How he defeated an army of the undead by himself is the question.  This must have been a trial by combat before the gods.  The cotf gave him a weapon, likely an obsidian sword.  He defeats his opponent and then what?

I think Mel gives us a bit of a clue when she calls the ancient enemy the soul of ice.  If you believe that magic swords contain a will of their own or a part of their master's soul; then potentially, the soul of ice is referring to the Stark sword Ice rather than it's substitute the valyrian steel sword.  In other words the Last Hero claimed the sword of his opponent which gave him dominion over the Others and he becomes the first King of Winter.  

Now his descendants are bound to guard the sword in the place where winter fell and also the Stark words.  

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell (because) Winter is Coming.  This is the Stark Musgrave Ritual.  They know the words but not it's meaning or origin.  

It's likely the sword is hidden in the crypts and if Jon's dreams are any indication; he must find and claim the sword and become the King of Winter.  My guess is that he will have to contend with the soul of the sword and master it or he will become the thing that Bran saw in the heart of winter.  Mel's ancient enemy personified.  

"Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." - DwD Jon VI

The heart of winter also suggests the place where winter first manifests.  That appears to be Winterfell.  (hat tip to Redriver). 

[Black Crow]

Not been around much lately for various reasons, but a few thoughts anent various bits and pieces on this page.

First the numbers: three is always reckoned a magic number and nine even more so because it is thrice three.

Ownership of the horn: I'm not inclined to specifically ascribe it to the Thenns or anybody else - it could well, for example, have last been Benjen's since soldiers always pick up and use the other side's kit - it proves how salty they are. Rather its an indicator of antiquity - remember the Royce family armour. Now that being said I think that Sam's continued retention of the horn indicates there is some significance attaching to it way beyond its being a handy container for the arrow-heads

And that brings us back again to the cache and to its purpose. 

As you know I've long argued that the timing of the attack on the Fist was not co-incidental but was launched the night before the Watch rode out precisely in order to clear the way for Mance's Trek. [Though I strongly disagree with Melifeather's theory that the Wildlings and Others are one and the same] but the location cache wasn't coincidental either. However, we also need to consider Ghost. He wasn't able at first to enter the fort. The same must have been true of whoever left the cache, otherwise why not deposit it inside where its easily found? That rather smells of Coldhands the Russian.

[dialt]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

First the numbers: three is always reckoned a magic number and nine even more so because it is thrice three.

 

Yes. I think we all agree on that. 

What I find curious, is that among many "3 or 9 of something" (days, years, deaths), it's only one or more groups of 3 people/animals (and in any case a party of 3 brothers/siblings) that you may find without fail in each prologue.

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As you know I've long argued that the timing of the attack on the Fist was not co-incidental but was launched the night before the Watch rode out precisely in order to clear the way for Mance's Trek.

If the theory that in AGOT they mistook Royce for Jon, is correct, it may be that they were still looking for him. It's only by chance that Jon is not there.

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

However, we also need to consider Ghost. He wasn't able at first to enter the fort. The same must have been true of whoever left the cache, otherwise why not deposit it inside where its easily found? That rather smells of Coldhands the Russian.

I am not sure if he wasn't able or if didn't want to. But what draws my attention, is that he can't/doesn't want in daylight. At night, he does.  

And if we have to consider Ghost... maybe the cache was left outside not because the person who left it coudn't enter the Fist, but because Ghost was meant to find it (and as a consequence Jon). Inside the ringfort anyone could have noticed it before him. Even if so, however, it sounds Coldhands . By Bloodraven or 3EC (if he's always been Bran) order.