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Black Crow

Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

That was when the story was three volumes.  I only see Sansa, Tyrion, Aegon and Tree-Bran making it to the end.  The wolves may survive but I'm guessing only Summer and Nymeria won't be killed off.

 

if anything, having spread beyond the projected three volumes more of them might make it - albeit Jon might still be a little dead - but my point remains that this is an ensemble piece, not the ballad of Jon "Targaryen"

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2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Tree-Bran should have received Ghost. The boy goes into the tree and the wolf becomes his alter ego going where the boy cannot, observing in silence.

Tree-Bran has reached the stage where he can observe without skinchanging. At this point, he seems to be using Ghost as a conduit to Ghost-Jon vis-à-vis the events at the Skirling Pass. 

As far as Ghost's silence, I think this is connected to the Horn of Winter/Sam's broken horn.   My intuition tells me that when that horn is repaired and can be winded, that Ghost will find his voice.

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10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Presumably a role that can be played by Summer

But Summer does not belong to the old gods like Ghost.

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Anyone familiar with Joseph Campbell’s book, The Hero With A Thousand Faces? It’s a book about the common themes in mythological stories. The hero always goes through 17 stages. Reading through this list brings to mind Jon’s, Bran’s, and Arya’s journeys - maybe even Sansa’s and Daenerys’.

In the beginning there is the status quo. Then:

1) a call to adventure - bargain w/o knowing

2) refusal of the call

3) supernatural aid - meet the mentor

4) crossing the first threshold - the 1st part of the adventure. 

5) belly of the whale - a metamorphosis. A minor danger or setback.

6) Initiation. The road of trials.

7) the meeting with the goddess. Receives items that will help him in future.

8) the woman as temptress. The hero faces physical temptations.

9) atonement with a father figure or entity with life or death power.

10) apotheosis. Greater understanding is achieved.

11) the ultimate boon or reward.

12) the return, and in many cases a refusal to return to an ordinary world to bring the ultimate reward back to the masses.

13) the magic flight. Sometimes the hero has to use magic to escape in order to bring the ultimate boon to the ordinary world.

14) rescue from without. Sometimes the hero needs help from some friend or outsider to escape, especially if wounded or weakened.

15) the crossing of the return threshold. The hero finds it difficult to return to ordinary.

16) master of two worlds. The hero achieves balance between material and spiritual.

17) mastery leads to a freedom from the fear of death. Living in the moment without worrying about the future or the past.

 

 

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On 2/27/2020 at 5:26 PM, alienarea said:

A bit of topic, but featuring dragons: a few years back I asked my Chinese Tai-Chi teacher about dragons, because it is one sign of the Chinese zodiac, all the other ones a real animals.

And a lot of European countries have tales about dragons, but most of us believe dragons did not exist unless you count dinosaurs who are believed to gone extinct before mankind evolved.

Why is mankind fascinated with dragons that didn't exist?

It isn't so much fascination with one type of creature called a dragon.  It is more calling many different fantastic creatures dragons.  What St. George killed is not on your Chinese Zodiac. 

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On 3/4/2020 at 6:29 PM, alienarea said:

But Summer does not belong to the old gods like Ghost.

I think that they all belong to the old Gods. To be sure there may be something different about Ghost which is yet to be revealed but I don't think that Jon's realisation that he belongs to the old gods is a unique identification

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20 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

It isn't so much fascination with one type of creature called a dragon.  It is more calling many different fantastic creatures dragons.  What St. George killed is not on your Chinese Zodiac. 

Maybe. Maybe not ;)

In the West(eros), all dragons must die.

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On 3/4/2020 at 8:19 PM, Melifeather said:

Anyone familiar with Joseph Campbell’s book, The Hero With A Thousand Faces? It’s a book about the common themes in mythological stories. The hero always goes through 17 stages. Reading through this list brings to mind Jon’s, Bran’s, and Arya’s journeys - maybe even Sansa’s and Daenerys’.

In the beginning there is the status quo. Then:

1) a call to adventure - bargain w/o knowing

2) refusal of the call

3) supernatural aid - meet the mentor

4) crossing the first threshold - the 1st part of the adventure. 

5) belly of the whale - a metamorphosis. A minor danger or setback.

6) Initiation. The road of trials.

7) the meeting with the goddess. Receives items that will help him in future.

8) the woman as temptress. The hero faces physical temptations.

9) atonement with a father figure or entity with life or death power.

10) apotheosis. Greater understanding is achieved.

11) the ultimate boon or reward.

12) the return, and in many cases a refusal to return to an ordinary world to bring the ultimate reward back to the masses.

13) the magic flight. Sometimes the hero has to use magic to escape in order to bring the ultimate boon to the ordinary world.

14) rescue from without. Sometimes the hero needs help from some friend or outsider to escape, especially if wounded or weakened.

15) the crossing of the return threshold. The hero finds it difficult to return to ordinary.

16) master of two worlds. The hero achieves balance between material and spiritual.

17) mastery leads to a freedom from the fear of death. Living in the moment without worrying about the future or the past.

 

 

@Melifeather I'm surprised that no one has responded to this post.  I think it offers a few unique (and direct) synopsis of one Bran Sky Walker.

I fell that the we end ADWD with Bran somewhere between stage 7 and 9.  He certainty has passed stage 6 (trials on the road) and he is working towards stage 10 (apotheosis - greater understanding).  I think he has passed stage 7 with the 3EC and may very well have passed stage 9; but question what atonement he has received.

That only leaves stage 8 (the temptress) and not sure what this means; other than Mel's vision in the fire with the possibility of Bran staring back at her.

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1 hour ago, Mace Cooterian said:

@Melifeather I'm surprised that no one has responded to this post.  I think it offers a few unique (and direct) synopsis of one Bran Sky Walker.

I fell that the we end ADWD with Bran somewhere between stage 7 and 9.  He certainty has passed stage 6 (trials on the road) and he is working towards stage 10 (apotheosis - greater understanding).  I think he has passed stage 7 with the 3EC and may very well have passed stage 9; but question what atonement he has received.

That only leaves stage 8 (the temptress) and not sure what this means; other than Mel's vision in the fire with the possibility of Bran staring back at her.

8) could be Meera, maybe? IIRC she could be tempting him to leave Dagobah, em, the cave.

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On 3/4/2020 at 9:19 PM, Melifeather said:

Anyone familiar with Joseph Campbell’s book, The Hero With A Thousand Faces? It’s a book about the common themes in mythological stories. The hero always goes through 17 stages. Reading through this list brings to mind Jon’s, Bran’s, and Arya’s journeys - maybe even Sansa’s and Daenerys’.

In the beginning there is the status quo. Then:

1) a call to adventure - bargain w/o knowing

2) refusal of the call

3) supernatural aid - meet the mentor

4) crossing the first threshold - the 1st part of the adventure. 

5) belly of the whale - a metamorphosis. A minor danger or setback.

6) Initiation. The road of trials.

7) the meeting with the goddess. Receives items that will help him in future.

8) the woman as temptress. The hero faces physical temptations.

9) atonement with a father figure or entity with life or death power.

10) apotheosis. Greater understanding is achieved.

11) the ultimate boon or reward.

12) the return, and in many cases a refusal to return to an ordinary world to bring the ultimate reward back to the masses.

13) the magic flight. Sometimes the hero has to use magic to escape in order to bring the ultimate boon to the ordinary world.

14) rescue from without. Sometimes the hero needs help from some friend or outsider to escape, especially if wounded or weakened.

15) the crossing of the return threshold. The hero finds it difficult to return to ordinary.

16) master of two worlds. The hero achieves balance between material and spiritual.

17) mastery leads to a freedom from the fear of death. Living in the moment without worrying about the future or the past.

 

 

I read The Hero's Journey a few years ago and you've reminded me of the key points.  It seems to me that a number of key characters are going through these stages.  

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Posted (edited)
On 2/21/2020 at 5:50 AM, Black Crow said:

Well that's what I assume he did at that conference in Santa Fe a few years back. The trouble is that although he may have told them how the story arcs end, he didn't fill them in on how it all gets there. In itself this will have been bad enough but when those endings were perched on top of an exercise in fan-fiction wholly alien to what GRRM is actually writing. Not much wonder the result was an utter dog's breakfast.

 

Seeing the final results, I'm not convinced GRRM ever gave D&D more than a handful of single line bullet points. They also could have chosen to ignore him and finish the character arcs with some idea he never gave them. 

Edited by QhorinQuarterhand

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On 2/23/2020 at 11:38 PM, Black Crow said:

Oh that could be fun and although she's the most prominent one it would also be interesting to see what the story would look like if other characters not mentioned in the synopsis never appeared - but lets stick with our Mel to start with.

Without Mel and her insistence on burning the Winterfell godswood, Jon Snow most likely accepts Stannis's offer to become Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell. Thus never becoming Lord Commander. 

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14 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Seeing the final results, I'm not convinced GRRM ever gave D&D more than a handful single line bullet points. They also could have chosen to ignore him and finish the character arcs with some idea he never gave them. 

What is more likely:  Working on a few bullet points, unrestricted by a time element; or having to rush towards the finish line and quickly wrapping up the story?

The first allows the author the freedom to cultivate the story and story arcs; the latter is directed by "big production'" to maximize profits.

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On 3/7/2020 at 5:26 AM, Mace Cooterian said:

@Melifeather I'm surprised that no one has responded to this post.  I think it offers a few unique (and direct) synopsis of one Bran Sky Walker.

I fell that the we end ADWD with Bran somewhere between stage 7 and 9.  He certainty has passed stage 6 (trials on the road) and he is working towards stage 10 (apotheosis - greater understanding).  I think he has passed stage 7 with the 3EC and may very well have passed stage 9; but question what atonement he has received.

That only leaves stage 8 (the temptress) and not sure what this means; other than Mel's vision in the fire with the possibility of Bran staring back at her.

The temptress need not be a corporeal one. There seems to be a significant line here in GRRM's original synopsis:

"Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake."

 

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On 3/7/2020 at 8:47 PM, Mace Cooterian said:

What is more likely:  Working on a few bullet points, unrestricted by a time element; or having to rush towards the finish line and quickly wrapping up the story?

The first allows the author the freedom to cultivate the story and story arcs; the latter is directed by "big production'" to maximize profits.

In this case we know they weren't rushed. HBO wanted at least 2 more seasons and obviously were ready to greenlight even more.

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30 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

In this case we know they weren't rushed. HBO wanted at least 2 more seasons and obviously were ready to greenlight even more.

That would have caused issues with the growth of younger actors in real life, Isaac Hempstead-Wright comes to mind. And, the quality of the released sample chapters and their protagonists didn't fit either. Arianne Martell, not in the show. Barristan Selmy, already dead. Sansa Stark, not in the Vale anymore. Stannis Baratheon (from Theon IV), already dead.

Their previous decisions forced a rushed end.

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4 hours ago, alienarea said:

That would have caused issues with the growth of younger actors in real life, Isaac Hempstead-Wright comes to mind. And, the quality of the released sample chapters and their protagonists didn't fit either. Arianne Martell, not in the show. Barristan Selmy, already dead. Sansa Stark, not in the Vale anymore. Stannis Baratheon (from Theon IV), already dead.

Their previous decisions forced a rushed end.

Good points about aging child actors.  D&D certainly didn't end in the way that they began.  They delayed a season perhaps thinking another book might be forthcoming and when it wasn't, they chose material from fan fiction to appeal to the dragon rider fans.  I think if there had been another book; they may have continued in the manner in which they started.   At some point, they had to finish quickly to move on.  There was talk about a Star Trek venture which gossip tells us fell through.  I'm not sure there was sufficient understanding or warning that another book would take years to publish. So we got a hopelessly mangled version that appeals primarily to people who haven't read the books.  My neighbor falls into that category and loves the TV series right down to the stinking end.         

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On 3/8/2020 at 5:30 AM, Black Crow said:

The temptress need not be a corporeal one. There seems to be a significant line here in GRRM's original synopsis:

"Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake."

 

Or the hero receives aid from a god rather than a goddess.

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