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Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

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Here is my very rough theory. This may dovetail into your thoughts as well about a hidden/dark Stark secret. I am open to thoughts and critiques!

Somehow, the Others were created. I am unsure of the particulars here. I can see the Children of the Forest creating them, as suggested in the television show, as a way to fight against men.  They were willing to bring the hammer of waters down at least once, perhaps twice, if we are to believe that is why the Neck is so swampy, so I don’t think it is out of the question that the Children turned to a dark magic to attempt to stop the spread of man. This creation got away from them.

The Children and the First Men form the Pact. They build the Wall and the Others are sent to the Lands of Always Winter, but the Others are far more sentient that we realize. They are mad that they have been regulated to beyond the Wall (quite similar to the Wildlings). So, the Long Night occurs.

A Stark King is Azor Ahai/Last Hero. He and his companions fight the Others, and he has to sacrifice his wife Nissa Nissa. Nissa Nissa, however, is turned into an Other.  She is the female Other that seduces, per se, the Night's King, who is believe is the SAME Stark king that killed her (as in the Night's King = Azor Ahai = the Last Hero).

As to my reasoning on that, a few things - this man has saved humanity but gave up the love of his life and now is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I would venture that it would be incredibly tempting to give in and go back to your love, even if she has been turned into something...Other. To paraphrase a quote from Batman - You die a hero or you live long enough to become a villain.

They have children, who are the Stark descendants. I speculate that the Lord of Winterfell (who fought the Night's King) brought his nieces/nephews back with him, but that he also knew he had to be careful.  The "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and the rusted iron swords in the crypts, I believe, are there for a reason. It is to keep an eye on things.

Which is why I think that Jon is going to kill Dany and Dany will become a Nissa Nissa again.

As to what woke up the Others, I think Euron did. There is a discussion between Jojen and Bran that talks about greenseers, wargs, and eye color.  I am thinking Euron's eye is an extremely rare variant that brings magical powers.

 

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On 3/12/2020 at 3:54 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

He is a messianic figure. Death, resurrection and savior trope.

I agree with this idea of Jon following that trope in some way.  Specifically, I’ve viewed one purpose (though not the full purpose) of Jon’s deaths and resurrections would be to “perish twice”: once in ice and once in fire.  Jon dies twice so that the world need not.

I also agree that Bran will try to bring his family members back, because it serves as a contrast with Arya, who has the opposite reaction to their family’s deaths (she goes around trying to kill people to get revenge).  Bran bringing life, Arya bringing death, both kids trying to cope with tragedy and trauma, things go haywire.

(And I’ve wondered if there might be weird stuff going on with Bran, time travel, and the Lord of Light, like if Bran will turn out to be responsible for things like Lady Stoneheart, either in attempt to resurrect his family members or to fight the Others.  But I haven't thought that through and it might be totally wrong.)

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23 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

All of you please wash your hands, practise social distancing, and stay healthy at least until Winds of Winter is out. I want to discuss it with each of you.

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13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I had read George's Not a Blog the other day and pretty much thought the same thing!

If this quarantine lasted 2 years we'd have TWOW and books 7-9 plus at least Book 1 of the sequel series. 

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8 hours ago, alienarea said:

All of you please wash your hands, practise social distancing, and stay healthy at least until Winds of Winter is out. I want to discuss it with each of you.

The same to you! I'm hoping everyone shows up for TWOW theory crafting. Though I'll be absent long enough to read the book first.

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Posted (edited)

Just a bit of a tangent here... 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

 

Is Hodor a dark angel?  The shadow that follows Bran through life and will lead him to the Nightlands when Bran's sins and suffering become too great to continue?

Edited by LynnS

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On 3/11/2020 at 8:45 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I am firmly convinced that Euron is the same person as Urrathon Nightwalker, who has a glass candle that is burning in Qarth. He had to have had a home base somewhere during his exile from the Iron Islands, he has a known proclivity for rare artifacts, and his having Pyat Pree puts him in the immediate vicinity (within a fortnight) of Qarth. 

I'm inclined to think the same thing.  Urrathon so close to Urragon:
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Wayward Bride

"He was a king during the Age of Heroes." She recalled that much about him, but little else. "What of him?"

"Torgon Greyiron was the king's eldest son. But the king was old and Torgon restless, so it happened that when his father died he was raiding along the Mander from his stronghold on Greyshield. His brothers sent no word to him but instead quickly called a kingsmoot, thinking that one of them would be chosen to wear the driftwood crown. But the captains and the kings chose Urragon Goodbrother to rule instead. The first thing the new king did was command that all the sons of the old king be put to death, and so they were. After that men called him Badbrother, though in truth they'd been no kin of his. He ruled for almost two years."

 

 I do think Euron travelled to Qaarth seeking magic power.  I think he went into the House of Undying and part of his soul resides there:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard.

A kingly man in rich robes rose when he saw her, and smiled. "Daenerys of House Targaryen, be welcome. Come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth."

"Long have we awaited you," said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be.

 

As for the glass candles in the House of Urrathon Night-Walker; it depends on the meaning of night-walking.  I think this may have something to do with using candles to walk through the dreams of others and use their fears against them.   Moqorro says that the enemy's dark eye has set upon Dany.   He may be watching her by glass candle but so far hasn't invaded her dreams. 

But rather, I'm guessing that glass candles are being used to invade Cersei's dreams either by Euron or Qyburn. 

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Posted (edited)

Has anyone heard of the YouTube channel Order of the Greenhand? I just now started watching their videos, and they are definitely interesting. 

Edited by QhorinQuarterhand

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8 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Has anyone heard of the YouTube channel Order of the Greenhand? I just now started watching their videos, and they are definitely interesting. 

Yes, I've heard of it but haven't spent any time on it.  If you have something interesting, post a link.

Sigh, I wonder if Martin will publish in July, if that has been the plan.  A book that includes a pandemic might not be the best thing to publish right now.

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37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I've heard of it but haven't spent any time on it.  If you have something interesting, post a link.

Sigh, I wonder if Martin will publish in July, if that has been the plan.  A book that includes a pandemic might not be the best thing to publish right now.

Will do!

This virus might actually go long enough to delay even if he finishes. I do believe he planned last year to be done in time to publish this Summer. Though it wouldn't be too much longer to wait for a more fitting December release. 

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17 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I've heard of it but haven't spent any time on it.  If you have something interesting, post a link.

Sigh, I wonder if Martin will publish in July, if that has been the plan.  A book that includes a pandemic might not be the best thing to publish right now.

Aux Contraire. Very topical and see how many extol his priesience

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I'm almost done with ADWD on this re-read. Just when I thought I was free, I get drawn back into ASOIAF theories (currently Order of the Green Hand videos) and I feel like I'm going to end up closing ADWD and picking up AGOT instead of a different series. 

That's one of the genuises of GRRM. No matter how many times I read the books I always end up feeling like there's more to discover.

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Posted (edited)

Ok so I've seen a few theories from Order of the Green Hand I'd like to get everyone's opinions on. But I just saw the one I'd like to start off with. 

Who wrote the Pink Letter? The answer is one I don't recall hearing before. There are 2 videos. 

 

Edited by QhorinQuarterhand

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Posted (edited)
On 3/24/2020 at 3:13 PM, QhorinQuarterhand said:

I'm almost done with ADWD on this re-read. Just when I thought I was free, I get drawn back into ASOIAF theories (currently Order of the Green Hand videos) and I feel like I'm going to end up closing ADWD and picking up AGOT instead of a different series. 

That's one of the genuises of GRRM. No matter how many times I read the books I always end up feeling like there's more to discover.

A Song of Ice and Fire does reveal its secrets after a second and third reading. I think its because we're more sensitive to certain key words after forum discussions that our attention gets drawn by passages that we barely considered the first time around.

Regarding the Pink Letter...even after watching the video, I don't think Mance can be eliminated simply by saying he wouldn't know which ravens know how to fly to the Wall. Why wouldn't he? He was raised by the men of the Watch since he was a small boy. Surely the ravens wear bands that designate the places they are from? Real life homing pigeons wear a metal band secured to their leg indicating their home roost. A man of the Watch would probably know that - at least what the band of a Wall raven would look like.

I think the biggest clue in the Pink Letter is Mance's description. It states that he's hanging naked in a cage wearing a cloak made of six skins. There are several things in that description that indicate Mance is wearing a glamor. IMO the cage hints at Rattleshirt's vest made of bones as well as the reference to when he hung in a cage over a huge fire. Rattleshirt was "naked", because Mance had his bone vest. The word "cloak" refers to a glamor, and "six-skins" is intended to recall the skinchanger, Varamyr Six-skins.

Edited by Melifeather

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

A Song of Ice and Fire does reveal its secrets after a second and third reading. I think its because we're more sensitive to certain key words after forum discussions that our attention gets drawn by passages that we barely considered the first time around.

Regarding the Pink Letter...even after watching the video, I don't think Mance can be eliminated simply by saying he wouldn't know which ravens know how to fly to the Wall. Why wouldn't he? He was raised by the men of the Watch since he was a small boy. Surely the ravens themselves wear bands that designate the places they are from? Real life homing pigeons wear a metal band secured to their leg indicating their home roost. A man of the Watch would probably know that - at least what the band of a Wall raven would look like.

I think the biggest clue in the Pink Letter is Mance's description. It states that he's hanging naked in a cage wearing a cloak made of six skins. There are several things in that description that indicate Mance is wearing a glamor. IMO the cage hints at Rattleshirt's vest made of bones as well as the reference to when he hung in a cage over a huge fire. Rattleshirt was "naked", because Mance had his bone vest. The word "cloak" refers to a glamor, and "six-skins" is intended to recall the skinchanger, Varamyr Six-skins.

Thank you. Did you watch the 2nd video? 

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1 hour ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Thank you. Did you watch the 2nd video? 

Not yet.

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11 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Ok so I've seen a few theories from Order of the Green Hand I'd like to get everyone's opinions on. But I just saw the one I'd like to start off with. 

Who wrote the Pink Letter? The answer is one I don't recall hearing before. There are 2 videos. 

 

That answer doesn't make much sense to me. 

Plus, they exclude Melisandre as an option. 
 

And the possibility that the letter wasn't send from Winterfell but created at Castle Black.

 

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