Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

[Black Crow]

How closely has the letter been examined - physically?

The arguments rehearsed above all assume that X wrote the letter from Dear Sir all the way down to Yours Faithfully, and then try to figure out the contradictions between.

However there is an entirely different possibility, namely that Ramsay did indeed write a letter which he then sealed with pink wax and posted to Castle Black.

But [and remember Clydas' guilty demeanor] when it arrived, it was opened, tampered with and then re-sealed with the remains of the wax. 

That, obviously points to Mel, who is perfectly capable of intimidating Clydas, and who doesn't actually need to know the stuff about Reek, etc. if it was originally written by Ramsey

[Melifeather]

30 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Did the writer believe Theon may make it to Jon ahead of the letter? 

Yes, exactly. The timing of the letter is after Theon and fArya escaped, but also long enough after that a search party went out and came back without them.

[Lady Rhodes]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Jon has no idea who Reek is. Only the letter writer would know, or pretend to know, who Reek is, but the letter writer is assuming Reek made his way to the Wall with fArya. Jon would think that since Alys already arrived at Castle Black that the bride in question might actually be Arya. IMO the mere existence of the demand for Reek confirms the letter writer is someone at Winterfell.

Lol I think we are saying the same thing differently. Or perhaps I am doing a horrible job explaining (I am chasing a toddler around, too).

Anyway, yes I agree that no one knows who Reek is, Jon certainly does not. So why include that? Is the writer, who I am inclined to agree is someone inside Winterfell, most likely Mance, assuming he (Reek) would have made it to The Wall and revealed himself to Jon? Or could there be someone at the Wall who knows who Reek is?

I read long, long ago that Stannis May have written the letter to try to provoke Jon to join (and help get Northern loyalty). Melisandre could be part of this ploy, in that regard. Stannis, who I find just as bad as Joffrey in the “I am the king!” regard, may have the arrogance to assume Jon knows.
 

but overall, I’m inclined to say Mance 

[QhorinQuarterhand]

Quote

“We need to talk about the ranging,” said Jon. “I want us to be of one mind at the Shieldhall, we must—” He broke off when Mully poked his nose inside the door, grim-faced, to announce that Clydas had brought a letter.
“Tell him to leave it with you. I will read it later.”
“As you say, m’lord, only … Clydas don’t look his proper self … he’s more white than pink, if you get my meaning … and he’s shaking.”
“Dark wings, dark words,” muttered Tormund. “Isn’t that what you kneelers say?”
“We say, Bleed a cold but feast a fever too,” Jon told him. “We say, Never drink with Dornishmen when the moon is full. We say a lot of things.”
Mully added his two groats. “My old grandmother always used to say, Summer friends will melt away like summer snows, but winter friends are friends forever.”
“I think that’s sufficient wisdom for the moment,” said Jon Snow. “Show Clydas in if you would be so good.”
Mully had not been wrong; the old steward was trembling, his face as pale as the snows outside. “I am being foolish, Lord Commander, but … this letter frightens me. See here?”
Bastard, was the only word written outside the scroll. No Lord Snow or Jon Snow or Lord Commander. Simply Bastard. And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax. “You were right to come at once,” Jon said. You were right to be afraid. He cracked the seal, flattened the parchment, and read.

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.
Your false king’s friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.
I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.
I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.
It was signed,
Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

 

[St Daga]

On 4/6/2020 at 4:23 AM, Black Crow said:

On 4/5/2020 at 4:47 PM, St Daga said:

...I expect to see him dark and cold, a vengeful spirit, just like the lords of Winterfell that Ned introduces us to in his very first POV.

I think that might fit Jon better

Since Jon and Ned seem to be written as dopplegangers in many ways, I suppose one could see that the foreshadowing in Ned's story is intended to be played out in Jon's storyline. Yet, as far as the Osiris imagery I see in Ned, Jon has no wife to have children with, although he does have one lover who is now dead. I think she was burned though, and can't come back. I suppose either Mel or Val could be stand ins for this.  Jon and Ned both have sword imagery, some of it is shared in Ice, but some is Jon's own with Longclaw, but so far Jon as retained his sword, where as Ned has lost his. Now, Jon could very well come back cold and vengeful, but it stands out to me that it is Ned who fears this about the Lords of Winterfell.  So far Jon is not a Lord of Winterfell (except wanting it badly and shouting it out in a dream), although Eddard was. My gut instinct is that resurrection that is special to the Starks is linked to the Lord of Winterfell, so that fits Ned and Robb.  Jon clearly dreams of the crypts, which is certainly a nod to the underworld, but I think that Ned does as well. And the Lords of Winterfell that Ned worried about were the ones who had statues in the crypts, statues that had no sword. Again, this fits Ned, not Jon. Part of my thoughts might be because I don't think that Jon will die, and some of this is based on GRRM's own discussion of resurrection and the toll that is paid for the gift, and until we ever get Winds, I am going to hang onto that thought. Jon's resurrection is almost as accepted as the concept of RLJ within the fandom, except it hasn't been written yet, and might never be.

[Black Crow]

I don't have the reference to hand but GRRM did warn some time back that Jon was going to become darker

[LynnS]

This cracked me up today:  Speaking Moistly

 

 

[Black Crow]

20 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

 

Actually, re-reading the whole passage, I'm coming round to the notion that the letter ought to be read at face value.

[Melifeather]

On 4/8/2020 at 7:04 AM, LynnS said:

This cracked me up today:  Speaking Moistly

 

 

hahaha, god I hate the word "moist"! I suppose he had a brain fart and "moistly" was the best he could come up with in a pinch!

[Melifeather]

21 hours ago, St Daga said:

Since Jon and Ned seem to be written as dopplegangers in many ways, I suppose one could see that the foreshadowing in Ned's story is intended to be played out in Jon's storyline. Yet, as far as the Osiris imagery I see in Ned, Jon has no wife to have children with, although he does have one lover who is now dead. I think she was burned though, and can't come back. I suppose either Mel or Val could be stand ins for this.  Jon and Ned both have sword imagery, some of it is shared in Ice, but some is Jon's own with Longclaw, but so far Jon as retained his sword, where as Ned has lost his. Now, Jon could very well come back cold and vengeful, but it stands out to me that it is Ned who fears this about the Lords of Winterfell.  So far Jon is not a Lord of Winterfell (except wanting it badly and shouting it out in a dream), although Eddard was. My gut instinct is that resurrection that is special to the Starks is linked to the Lord of Winterfell, so that fits Ned and Robb.  Jon clearly dreams of the crypts, which is certainly a nod to the underworld, but I think that Ned does as well. And the Lords of Winterfell that Ned worried about were the ones who had statues in the crypts, statues that had no sword. Again, this fits Ned, not Jon. Part of my thoughts might be because I don't think that Jon will die, and some of this is based on GRRM's own discussion of resurrection and the toll that is paid for the gift, and until we ever get Winds, I am going to hang onto that thought. Jon's resurrection is almost as accepted as the concept of RLJ within the fandom, except it hasn't been written yet, and might never be.

While I agree that Jon will become "darker", I think the crypt imagery has more to do with the circumstances surrounding his birth than even his resurrection. Yes, I believe he will die and be resurrected, but my gut says the Bastard O'Winterfell story is part of this crypt imagery. In that story the Lord of Winterfell didn't have a male heir and then his daughter went missing. She was gone for about a year. I'm sure he was worried that she was dead, but she turned up asleep in her bed with a baby next to her. Then we learn she had been "hiding in the crypts", which to me doesn't necessarily mean she was physically living in the crypts, but rather she was only pretending to be dead.

I believe Ashara is Jon's mother. The accepted story is that Ashara committed suicide and jumped from the Palestone Tower, but I think she faked it and is still alive and living in her ancestral home at Starfall under an assumed identity: Wylla. In effect, she's "hiding in the crypts" - pretending to be dead - and Jon will learn the truth somehow.

Learning that Ashara is his mother will fulfill the requirement that Jon was "born with the dead". Lyanna and Ashara are intended to be thought of as "sisters", even if they are not blood related. Many readers believe Lyanna died shortly after giving birth to Jon. I don't believe Lyanna ever gave birth at all. I think she died of a sword wound to the belly. The imagery of the bed of blood is the same. Robert's death by goring demonstrated that. I also think Lyanna died at relatively the same time as when Ashara gave birth to Jon. She had already assumed the Wylla identity in order to travel in disguise with Ned to Winterfell. The two "deaths" - Lyanna's actual death and Ashara's pretend death - occurred when Jon was born. If Ashara gave birth to Jon at Winterfell, then I expect there is some kind of evidence there. Did they have birth certificates in medieval times? Posters here have joked about Jon finding a moldy marriage certificate in Lyanna's tomb, but I think the proof Jon finds will have to do with Ashara. Hypothetically, what would a marriage certificate even mean to Jon? Is he supposed to have a eureka moment that if Lyanna was married to Rhaegar that he'd automatically jump to the conclusion that Ned wasn't his father after all? I don't think so!

St Daga, you're a nurse, right? How are things where you work? Are you OK?

[alienarea]

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Actually, re-reading the whole passage, I'm coming round to the notion that the letter ought to be read at face value.

How would Ramsay know about Val and Dalla's child? I cannot imagine Mance giving this information easily, and if Ramsay were to torture Mance, would Ramsay ask for this?

Another very odd part is the seven days of battle. Of course, it could be Ramsay bragging, but none of the battles took seven days. Add the snow and the condition of Stannis' army, and it is extemely unlikely.

But seven days of battle makes sense for someone who knows Stannis is camped three days away from Winterfell. Three days from Winterfell to get to Stannis' camp, one day of battle, three days to return to Winterfell. Seven days in total.

Maybe this will get know as the pink knot and get blamed for not releasing TWoW. 

GRRM sure is a sloppy gardener.

[alienarea]

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

While I agree that Jon will become "darker", I think the crypt imagery has more to do with the circumstances surrounding his birth than even his resurrection. Yes, I believe he will die and be resurrected, but my gut says the Bastard O'Winterfell story is part of this crypt imagery. In that story the Lord of Winterfell didn't have a male heir and then his daughter went missing. She was gone for about a year. I'm sure he was worried that she was dead, but she turned up asleep in her bed with a baby next to her. Then we learn she had been "hiding in the crypts", which to me doesn't necessarily mean she was physically living in the crypts, but rather she was only pretending to be dead.

I believe Ashara is Jon's mother. The accepted story is that Ashara committed suicide and jumped from the Palestone Tower, but I think she faked it and is still alive and living in her ancestral home at Starfall under an assumed identity: Wylla. In effect, she's "hiding in the crypts" - pretending to be dead - and Jon will learn the truth somehow.

Learning that Ashara is his mother will fulfill the requirement that Jon was "born with the dead". Lyanna and Ashara are intended to be thought of as "sisters", even if they are not blood related. Many readers believe Lyanna died shortly after giving birth to Jon. I don't believe Lyanna ever gave birth at all. I think she died of a sword wound to the belly. The imagery of the bed of blood is the same. Robert's death by goring demonstrated that. I also think Lyanna died at relatively the same time as when Ashara gave birth to Jon. She had already assumed the Wylla identity in order to travel in disguise with Ned to Winterfell. The two "deaths" - Lyanna's actual death and Ashara's pretend death - occurred when Jon was born. If Ashara gave birth to Jon at Winterfell, then I expect there is some kind of evidence there. Did they have birth certificates in medieval times? Posters here have joked about Jon finding a moldy marriage certificate in Lyanna's tomb, but I think the proof Jon finds will have to do with Ashara. Hypothetically, what would a marriage certificate even mean to Jon? Is he supposed to have a eureka moment that if Lyanna was married to Rhaegar that he'd automatically jump to the conclusion that Ned wasn't his father after all? I don't think so!

The only thing I can think of Jon might find in the crypts is Dawn. It could prove that Jon is half-Dayne? 

Other than that, Rhaegar's harp and some cheesy poetry.

 

[LynnS]

35 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

hahaha, god I hate the word "moist"! I suppose he had a brain fart and "moistly" was the best it could come up with in a pinch!

LOL He is known for his brain farts and has this in common with Sylvester:

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

This cracked me up today:  Speaking Moistly

 

 

Back in the day we would have said “say it don’t spray it”

[Lady Rhodes]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but has anyone analyzed whether the Others are the old gods?

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, alienarea said:

How would Ramsay know about Val and Dalla's child? I cannot imagine Mance giving this information easily, and if Ramsay were to torture Mance, would Ramsay ask for this?

Another very odd part is the seven days of battle. Of course, it could be Ramsay bragging, but none of the battles took seven days. Add the snow and the condition of Stannis' army, and it is extemely unlikely.

But seven days of battle makes sense for someone who knows Stannis is camped three days away from Winterfell. Three days from Winterfell to get to Stannis' camp, one day of battle, three days to return to Winterfell. Seven days in total.

Maybe this will get know as the pink knot and get blamed for not releasing TWoW. 

GRRM sure is a sloppy gardener.

It could certainly have been written by Mance, but I'm rather wary of assuming that there are things in it which certain people could or couldn't know.

Simple example. The letter demands the return of Reek

Who is Reek? Jon might not know him from Adam, but if Ramsay's Missus has indeed turned up at Winterfell then he must be the guy who came with her. ID is not required.

What's of rather more importance at this stage is Mel's performance. Her slipping out of the Shieldhall just before the assassination strongly suggests she knew what was in the letter and tipped the black spot after she saw his reaction, but she didn't need to have written it, It would have been enough to have forced Clydas to let her read it, and then use it as a test.

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but has anyone analyzed whether the Others are the old gods?

GRRM has very firmly stated in the past that there will be no personal appearances by the Gods.

But on the other hand we've certainly discussed a connection between the Others/Wild Hunt and the Old Gods

[Lady Rhodes]

39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has very firmly stated in the past that there will be no personal appearances by the Gods.

But on the other hand we've certainly discussed a connection between the Others/Wild Hunt and the Old Gods

I recalled GRRM saying that after I had posted. Could you briefly explain the general opinion on the subject?

[Melifeather]

Anyone interested in exploring the Quiet Isle as a sinister location? I have a theory that King Aerys kept women hostage there - women that he impregnated in order to have a constant supply of "dragonseed" to sacrifice in dragon-egg hatching experiments.

[St Daga]

On 4/8/2020 at 3:21 AM, Black Crow said:

I don't have the reference to hand but GRRM did warn some time back that Jon was going to become darker

Yes. I have heard about this. Jon doesn't have to dead and resurrected to become a darker version of himself. I think we have already seen that a very alive Tyrion became a terribly darker version of himself by the time he was killing his father and Shae and then off to Essos to drown in wine and rape slaves. 

One of my favorite quotes from Jon, and about his potential for chaos and destruction (gosh, I might be reading to much about Elric of Melnibone right now) is this:

Quote

Jon looked up at the Wall shining in the sun, the melting ice creeping down its side in a hundred thin fingers. Jon's rage was such that he would have smashed it all in an instant, and the world be damned. AGOT-Jon VI

I think we have been teased with a darker Jon Snow for a long time, I just don't know that it has to be tied to resurrection. But the discussion is always interesting, and I hope we get another book so we can get some answers in this regard.