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Who is the brother that Bloodraven loved?


Bael's Bastard

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Bloodraven remained loyal to King Daeron II during the Blackfyre Rebellion, and he and his archers were even responsible for killing Daemon and his sons.

But Daemon was a fellow bastard of King Aegon IV, and close in age to Bloodraven. It's possible they became close before Daemon knew he was Aegon's.

The case for Daeron seems stronger, since Bloodraven could have grown up loving and looking up to his much older half brother Daeron.

But it would be all the more tragic if Bloodraven found himself opposing and even hunting his beloved brother and his sons out of duty or loyalty to the king.

What is your head canon?

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I don't belive that Bloodraven loved Daemon.

If this would be the case, he would show some regreat for killing Daemon and his kids, but instead bloodraven went on to even kill Aenys Blackfyre, and still tryied to justify his actions.

Even if the Brother that he love wasn't Daeron, there is no way that would be Daemon.

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I think this is no longer a question of head canon/personal preferences. TWoIaF gives us many hints that Daeron II and Brynden were close, both personally (with Brynden being the guy warning him of Daemon's planned treason, causing the attempted arrest by the Kingsguard) and by means of the connections between Brynden Rivers, Melissa Blackwood, Queen Naerys, the Dragonknight, and Daeron II.

By comparison, there is no indication whatsoever that Brynden Rivers and Daemon Blackfyre were close, ever. If this was the case then we could reasonably expect Bloodraven not only being vilified as a sorcerer and kinslayer but also as a man who betrayed Daemon Blackfyre, his beloved brother, on a personal level. After all, if Brynden loved Daemon people should be aware of that fact. But nobody ever mentions any of that - Dunk doesn't know anything of that, Egg doesn't mention it, Septon Sefton, Eustace Osgrey, and Gormon Peake never talk about that.

It wouldn't have been a brother-brother relationship as such, of course, more that Daeron II became some sort of mentor/foster father to Brynden Rivers. And considering the kind of men Daeron II surrounded himself with (smart people who don't necessarily have to be great warriors) it strikes me as very likely that he would be the only prince around to bond with the freak albino. Daemon Blackfyre was a god among mortal men - why should he bond with a scrawny, disfigured albino freak? Also, Daemon and Brynden weren't that close in age. Daemon was born in 170 AC, and Brynden in 175 AC, meaning that Brynden was still only seven years old when Daemon got knighted, and nine years when their royal father died. And Daemon was the son of a royal princess who may not even have resided at the Red Keep until the king acknowledged him as his son in 182 AC. After Daemon was acknowledged and given Blackfyre there is a chance that he was raised alongside the king's grandsons Baelor (who was born the same year as he was), Aerys, Rhaegel, and Maekar (although even that is not very likely considering that Prince Daeron resided on Dragonstone, meaning his sons were likely living there, too, not with their fat and corrupt grandfather).

And while we know that Brynden was able to keep close ties with court due to the popularity of his mother (with the queen, the Dragonknight, and Prince Daeron) we don't know whether he was raised there. Melissa was dumped by the king in 177 AC, about two years after Brynden's birth. It doesn't strike me as likely that the Unworthy cared about raising him or his older sisters Mya and Gwenys at court. Even if he took a personal interest in his great bastards, he wouldn't have bothered with infants and toddlers. Especially since we have it effectively confirmed that Aegor Rivers was raised at Stoneheck after the king had dumped Barba Bracken. There may have been visits and such and it seems Aegon IV bestowed certain incomes and privileges on his great bastards before his death, but I very much doubt there was any bonding going among the bastard gang.

In fact, it actually seems that it was Daeron II in his magnanimity and largesse who helped Aegor Rivers and Daemon Blackfyre to hook by allowing both of them to live at his court. Like Domeric Bolton he seems to have tried to befriend his bastard half-siblings, eventually paying the price for being a nice guy. One expects that the new King Daeron II had little problems befriending a nine-year-old Brynden, who he may have first noticed back at the funeral of the Dragonknight and his own mother, Queen Naerys, which Melissa and Brynden may have both attended and where Brynden may have shown real grief at the loss of those people. Aegor would have been three years older, and from a family who really tried to fuck with Daeron II's mother back in 172 AC as well as Aegon IV himself in the whole Bethany affair. He may have already felt that he and his family were treated unfairly, etc. at the age of twelve.

And with Aegor and Daemon getting close and Aegor and Brynden loathing each other from the start - and this hatred growing worse after Shiera and Brynden got together - there is pretty much no indication that Brynden and Daemon were ever so much as friends. In fact, the way Bloodraven later deals with the Blackfyres (very harshly) seems to indicate that Bloodraven never liked this man or his sons very much.

On 2/19/2020 at 5:38 PM, Arthur Peres said:

I don't belive that Bloodraven loved Daemon.

If this would be the case, he would show some regreat for killing Daemon and his kids, but instead bloodraven went on to even kill Aenys Blackfyre, and still tryied to justify his actions.

Even if the Brother that he love wasn't Daeron, there is no way that would be Daemon.

Yeah, the fact that he continued to persecute Daemon's children after the Redgrass Field is a strong sign that he never cared much for the Blackfyres. Nobody forced him to become Hand, nobody forced him to use sorcery and spies to stop the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, nobody forced him to fight in the Third, and nobody forced him to trick and execute Aenys Blackfyre.

In fact, nobody forced him to slay Daemon and his twins the way he did. If you have conflicted loyalties but fight on different sides, then you usually try to avoid to target your own - sort of like the Umbers do it in ADwD, fighting on different sides but not directly against each other. But Bloodraven's entire agenda on the Redgrass Field seems to have been to kill Daemon Blackfyre and his sons. That is not something a man who loved another man would do. He would find another way to do his duty to his king and to not kill the man he loved (or his children). And if he was forced to do it then he would likely resign afterwards and grieve for the rest of his life.

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17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And while we know that Brynden was able to keep close ties with court due to the popularity of his mother (with the queen, the Dragonknight, and Prince Daeron) we don't know whether he was raised there. Melissa was dumped by the king in 177 AC, about two years after Brynden's birth. It doesn't strike me as likely that the Unworthy cared about raising him or his older sisters Mya and Gwenys at court. Even if he took a personal interest in his great bastards, he wouldn't have bothered with infants and toddlers. Especially since we have it effectively have it confirmed that Aegor Rivers was raised at Stoneheck after the king had dumped Barba Bracken. There may have been visits and such and it seems Aegon IV bestowed certain incomes and privileges on his great bastards before his death, but I very much doubt there was any bonding going among the bastard gang.

From what I remember Brynden was raised at court, which was another point of contention with Bittersteel, seeing as Aegor was kicked from court along with his mother, while Brynden and his mother were allowed to remain even after Aegon was done with her. I do however agree with you that Aegon didn't care about his bastards until at least when they were older.

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6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

From what I remember Brynden was raised at court, which was another point of contention with Bittersteel, seeing as Aegor was kicked from court along with his mother, while Brynden and his mother were allowed to remain even after Aegon was done with her. I do however agree with you that Aegon didn't care about his bastards until at least when they were older.

We know that Brynden was able to keep close ties with court, but not that he was raised there after his mother left. I doubt Aegon IV would have wanted to bother himself or his court with a two-year-old, nor do I think Melissa was keen to leave her son in the hands of some wetnurse/servant at court when she returned to Raventree Hall.

It is possible that Brynden was sent back to court as a page at the age of seven or eight or so, I guess, or, perhaps more likely, that Prince Daeron accepted him as his ward on Dragonstone, possibly after Melissa talked to him at the funeral of the Dragonknight or Queen Naerys some time later.

But where Princess Daena and Daemon Waters lived before Aegon IV knighted Daemon is completely unclear at that point. The Red Keep is a strong possibility, of course, but we don't know that for sure. Aegon IV could have married Daena to some guy, just as he married Elaena to Ossifer Plumm.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We know that Brynden was able to keep close ties with court, but not that he was raised there after his mother left. I doubt Aegon IV would have wanted to bother himself or his court with a two-year-old, nor do I think Melissa was keen to leave her son in the hands of some wetnurse/servant at court when she returned to Raventree Hall.

It is possible that Brynden was sent back to court as a page at the age of seven or eight or so, I guess, or, perhaps more likely, that Prince Daeron accepted him as his ward on Dragonstone, possibly after Melissa talked to him at the funeral of the Dragonknight or Queen Naerys some time later.

But where Princess Daena and Daemon Waters lived before Aegon IV knighted Daemon is completely unclear at that point. The Red Keep is a strong possibility, of course, but we don't know that for sure. Aegon IV could have married Daena to some guy, just as he married Elaena to Ossifer Plumm.

With Ser Quentyn Ball being the master at arms at the Red Keep and being the person who taught Daemon. I would guess Daemon and probably his mother lived in the Red Keep before Daemon was knighted by Aegon IV.

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I tend to agree with @Lord Varys. Whilst loving Daemon fits in the book themes of tragedy and "the heart at war with itself", it doesn't mean that everything can be explained solely from that perspective. If we look at the quote:

"I have my own ghosts. A brother I loved, a brother I hated, a woman I desired. In my dreams I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them."

He is basically saying that he did all what he did (including an enormous amount of shit) out of love for a brother, out of hate for another, out of lust for a woman. Now he understand his life better he would like to explain that to them, but he can't.

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23 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

With Ser Quentyn Ball being the master at arms at the Red Keep and being the person who taught Daemon. I would guess Daemon and probably his mother lived in the Red Keep before Daemon was knighted by Aegon IV.

That could be the case, certainly. But it is also possible that Daemon only trained with Fireball after he was knighted and acknowledged, and to have continued this training with Daeron II's sons after his half-brother had become king in 184 AC. After all, the information we have on the era are just general comments, not details. As I said, Daeron's sons would have likely resided with him on Dragonstone during the reign of the Unworthy, meaning they would have trained with Fireball only infrequently at best until their father rose to the Iron Throne.

I'd also go with the tentative assumption that Daena did not live into the reign of Daeron II. In fact, she might already have been dead by the time Aegon IV acknowledged Daemon as his son. If this were the case, then chances are not that bad that she died in childbirth after her royal cousin forced her to marry some old guy. That's how he treated his other cousin after she gave birth to bastards.

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Any chance it is Maester Aemon? Perhaps they had a decent relationship together at the Wall as brothers of the Night's Watch.

 

"I have my own ghosts. A brother I loved, a brother I hated, a woman I desired. In my dreams I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them." - Bloodraven ADWD

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. - Maester Aemon AGOT

I know its about Egg! It was worth a shot lol

Perhaps Bloodraven thought highly of Aemon when he kept his vows, allowing Egg to be King.

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4 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Any chance it is Maester Aemon? Perhaps they had a decent relationship together at the Wall as brothers of the Night's Watch.

 

"I have my own ghosts. A brother I loved, a brother I hated, a woman I desired. In my dreams I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them." - Bloodraven ADWD

Well given that the brother he hated (Bittersteel) and the woman he desired (Shera) are both his actual siblings, it's fair to say that the brother he loved was an actual brother. Of all of them it was probably either Daemon or Daeron. Given Daemon's honor as well as arrogance and marital fetes, combined with Daeron's compassion, and willingness to seek out talented men not based solely on martial fetes, it is pretty obvious who the weird skinny albino kid grew attached to.

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16 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Any chance it is Maester Aemon? Perhaps they had a decent relationship together at the Wall as brothers of the Night's Watch.

 

"I have my own ghosts. A brother I loved, a brother I hated, a woman I desired. In my dreams I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them." - Bloodraven ADWD

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. - Maester Aemon AGOT

I know its about Egg! It was worth a shot lol

Perhaps Bloodraven thought highly of Aemon when he kept his vows, allowing Egg to be King.

Bloodraven is maester Aemon’s great-uncle or something, not his brother. They both had brothers they loved, doesn’t mean they are brothers. And yes, I know you know, but then why try to pretzel two sentences that have nothing to do w/ each other apart from the mention of loved brothers? :lol:

At least this has nothing to do w/ Star Wars! :P

OP, my money is on Daeron II.

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I agree that Daeron II makes the most sense. Bloodraven could have grown up idolizing him, won over by his positive treatment, especially knowing how easily he could have been shunned by the royal family like other bastards. And he could have already had an entrenched view of Daemon as a more distant relative by the time his paternity became known.

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On 2/19/2020 at 11:05 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

But it would be all the more tragic if Bloodraven found himself opposing and even hunting his beloved brother and his sons out of duty or loyalty to the king.

What is your head canon?

Duty comes before brotherly love.  It doesn't matter how he felt.  His first duty is to the Targaryen monarch on the throne not to the legitimized bastard brother that he loved.  It doesn't matter if he loved the bastard.  What mattered was duty.  It was not at all tragic to fight against the brother that he loved in order to do his duty to the king.  It doesn't even matter if he liked the king. 

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5 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I agree that Daeron II makes the most sense. Bloodraven could have grown up idolizing him, won over by his positive treatment, especially knowing how easily he could have been shunned by the royal family like other bastards. And he could have already had an entrenched view of Daemon as a more distant relative by the time his paternity became known.

Assuming he even thought much about him. Again, Brynden would have been about seven by the time Daemon got Blackfyre. Do Bran and Arya have 'entrenched views' about people back at the beginning of AGoT? Does Tommen have entrenched views right now? I don't think so.

9 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Duty comes before brotherly love.  It doesn't matter how he felt.  His first duty is to the Targaryen monarch on the throne not to the legitimized bastard brother that he loved.  It doesn't matter if he loved the bastard.  What mattered was duty.  It was not at all tragic to fight against the brother that he loved in order to do his duty to the king.  It doesn't even matter if he liked the king. 

Actually, we have no idea whether Bloodraven acts out of a sense of duty or because of the love he feels for his brother and king. We don't know him enough to even guess what his motivations for his actions were.

Chances are, though, that duty has little to do with him going as far as he went - just as it also has nothing to do with him being as harsh and cruel as he obviously is.

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20 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

it's fair to say that the brother he loved was an actual brother.

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Bloodraven is maester Aemon’s great-uncle or something, not his brother

I'm just trying to introduce a different perspective. I know odds are its Daeron.

But from Jon's POV, he considers his half-brothers and black brothers as brothers.

"Fire is life up here," said Qhorin Halfhand, "but it can be death as well." By his command, they'd risked no open flames since entering the mountains. They ate cold salt beef, hard bread, and harder cheese, and slept clothed and huddled beneath a pile of cloaks and furs, grateful for each other's warmth. It made Jon remember cold nights long ago at Winterfell, when he'd shared a bed with his brothers. These men were brothers too, though the bed they shared was stone and earth. {Jon VI ACOK}

Perhaps Aemon and Bloodraven got along at Castle Black as Night's Watch brothers ... until Bloodraven turned to the Dark Side.

 

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

At least this has nothing to do w/ Star Wars! :P

Had to call me out huh? :P

Fine ... maybe not past events, but perhaps future events ...

Spoiler Tag for potential future events via the Dark Side of ASOIAF, Jon Snow & Bloodraven ... brothers of the Night's Watch:

Spoiler


At the Nightfort - Bloodraven trying to get Jon to open the Black Gate, or else he kills Bran and company.

Bloodraven: You cannot fight this forever, Jon.
Jon: I will not join you.
Bloodraven: Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save Bran and his friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for ... sister! So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her too. Ned Stark was wise to hide her from the realm. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps she will!

 

 

There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher [Bloodraven]. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong." {Bran III ADWD}

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2 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Perhaps Aemon and Bloodraven got along at Castle Black as Night's Watch brothers ... until Bloodraven turned to the Dark Side.

Ah, so you fell for that as well? I expected more from you... 

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I don't know that we will ever know from Bloodraven himself, maybe we get more info via a Bran vision in the next books? I hope so. If I were to guess, and sticking with the theme of hearts in conflict with itself, I would guess Daemon Blackfyre. I am sure Bloodraven's constant tamping of the rebellions (past and in the near future) were a strain on family connections he never truly desired.

 

9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Perhaps Aemon and Bloodraven got along at Castle Black as Night's Watch brothers ... until Bloodraven turned to the Dark Side.

He ain't evul if that is what you are getting at :D Darkness in Martinworld writing is in no way a bad thing, in fact, it helps open up ones talent and third-eye = good thing :thumbsup: Don't confuse Martin's style with other (slightly more generic) writing styles.

9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

 

Had to call me out huh? :P

Fine ... maybe not past events, but perhaps future events ...

Spoiler Tag for potential future events via the Dark Side of ASOIAF, Jon Snow & Bloodraven ... brothers of the Night's Watch:

  Reveal hidden contents


At the Nightfort - Bloodraven trying to get Jon to open the Black Gate, or else he kills Bran and company.

Bloodraven: You cannot fight this forever, Jon.
Jon: I will not join you.
Bloodraven: Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save Bran and his friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for ... sister! So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her too. Ned Stark was wise to hide her from the realm. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps she will!

 

 

There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher [Bloodraven]. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong." {Bran III ADWD}

 

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11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ah, so you fell for that as well? I expected more from you... 

Oh yea ... I totally fell into the Dark Side of ASOIAF and enjoying every bit of it. What's the alternative? D&D? Yuck!

I think I am the only one in the entire world re-reading ASOIAF the way GRRM meant it to be read, and I understand why he takes so damn long to write his books.
I am also re-reading it at Top Secret level that GRRM probably never intended anyone to figure out during his lifetime.
I have a 15 minute explanation why Bloodraven is the main villain, and a 15 second explanation of why Bloodraven is the main villain lol.

 

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

He ain't evul if that is what you are getting at :D Darkness in Martinworld writing is in no way a bad thing, in fact, it helps open up ones talent and third-eye = good thing :thumbsup: Don't confuse Martin's style with other (slightly more generic) writing styles.

Yes Bloodraven is evil ... wouldn't that make a shocking, but natural & organic twist to the books?
Bloodraven does have a background story in the books, unlike the show.
In my version, our three-eyed crow villain wants the Iron Throne (The Dark Sister Rebellion)
In the show ... well ... you guys got your crappy D&D version of the ADOS endgame of the wheeled chair Three-Eyed Raven.

Knowing that ... don't you guys want that organic twist now? It changes everything. It automatically nulls D&D's work the last 4 seasons. Give yourselves to the Dark Side!

 

Dark Side of ASOIAF - the Dark Sister Rebellion theory teaser ... careful now ... a lot of information to digest

Spoiler

Tragedy of Summerhall was an assassination attempt by Bloodraven using shadow assassins
He had a vendetta against Egg and decided to kill his family along with Dunk
Later on, with the help of another ... he brainwashes Rhaegar at Summerhall


Timeline:
Bloodraven deserts the Night's Watch 252AC
Tragedy of Summerhall 259AC
Check

ForeShadowing:
". . . of doom. [Rhaegar] was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."
Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?"
{Daenerys IV ACOK}
Check

The Repeated History:
Stannis & Mel used a shadow assassin to kinslay & kingslay Renly. Brienne, descendant of Dunk, was also present. The tent caught fire soon afterwards.
Check

The "Better Story":
Bloodraven baits a trap for the DNA Descendants of Dunk & Egg - Hodor & Meera (Rhaegar's daughter). Jon gets captured later too. But another set of DNA Descendants of Dunk & Egg kills Bloodraven in a rescue attempt for Bran - Brienne & Jaime. The DNA descendants also unknowingly avenged Dunk & Egg's assassination.
Check

Top Secret Theory: ............
Check (trust me)


GRRM has fooled you guys all these years. GRRM has fooled D&D. D&D's fan-fic has betrayed you. Throw their version of the Three-Eyed Raven in the dumpster and come to the Dark Side!

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24 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

What's the alternative? D&D? Yuck

:ack:

But the answer is, the abomination is not the only alternative. In fact, I don’t think it even qualifies as an alternative... 

Seriously, fellow Theoryguard-ist... you are so off it’s not even funny. Well, a wee bit funny. B/c I will enjoy the “I told ya” moment. ;)

Care to make a lil wager? :)

 

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26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

the abomination is not the only alternative

What are the other alternatives? Jon as Azor Ahai swinging Dawn and killing all the zombies? Dany as Azor Ahai and dragonfire all the zombies? How does Bran help against the Long Night if he traveled all the way to White Walker territory to open his third eye? What is this "third eye" that will turn the tide of the war? Because D&D couldn't make any logical use out of it.

32 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Seriously, fellow Theoryguard-ist... you are so off it’s not even funny. Well, a wee bit funny. B/c I will enjoy the “I told ya” moment. ;)

Care to make a lil wager? 

Ha! Bring it on! What is your wager? :D

I'm warning you ahead of time, I have hundreds of pages of notes unpublished.

For example:
"How many wives does [Craster] have, truly?" Grenn asked.
"More'n you ever will, brother. Well, it's not so hard when you breed your own. There's your beast, Snow."
{Jon III ACOK}
DID GRRM CALL CRASTER A "BEAST"??? hahahaha ... sorry inside joke

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