Is Ygritte a rapist?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Thank you for quoting me instead of making stuff up and saying I said it! 

You are right; I did say that. (And I do think that, actually.) But, I'm not going to get into the weeds about it and have specific scenarios picked apart as to whether something is moral or not, reasonable or not. I just don't want to go there.

I understand. No worries. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, the Val business is open to debate, but Jon doesn't even try with either woman, no? He recognizes their beauty but doesn't hang out with them, doesn't make a move, doesn't try anything. He doesn't even seem to grieve for Ygritte in a strong way, nor does he seem to have a strong sex drive (there is no masturbation going on in his chapters, unlike Tyrion's in ADwD).

In fact, I find the idea that Jon might about to be discover that he also likes boys not that far-fetched. Satin is a person he chooses to be his new steward and squire, and I would find it rather interesting if it turned out that Jon was bisexual or at least willing to explore that kind of thing.

Lord Varys, I think you may have read too much fan fiction. On why he doesn't jack off, well we only see one person doing it through the whole story, and that is Tyrion and we don't actually see it, we only have him thinking about it. Also Tyrion is a bit of an exception as he seems to have the appetite of Aegon the unworthy. Plus if he was gay, I don't think that he wouldn't jack off.

Also he never thinks of men in any strange way. He does think of women sexually quite a lot, especially with Ygrite, and a bit with Val and Mel. He doesn't do anything because of his vows. For Pete's sake he only did it with Ygritte when all was on the line, never before. He did everything he could in order to return to the Watch, knowing he could just as easily remain with the wildlings. This is a guy who clearly values his vows a lot. As to him exploring, I'm very curious (and a bit terrified) on how you think he might explore it.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Lord Varys, I think you may have read too much fan fiction. On why he doesn't jack off, well we only see one person doing it through the whole story, and that is Tyrion and we don't actually see it, we only have him thinking about it. Also Tyrion is a bit of an exception as he seems to have the appetite of Aegon the unworthy. Plus if he was gay, I don't think that he wouldn't jack off.

I don't read fan fiction of any type. My point was to illustrate that Jon Snow doesn't have a particularly strong sex drive. He had to be pressured into having sex with Ygritte. He would have *never* slept with her if he had a choice. First, because he wanted to keep his vows and not father a bastard, and second because he wasn't attracted to Ygritte. He thought she was homely before his hormones kicked in after they had sex.

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also he never thinks of men in any strange way. He does think of women sexually quite a lot, especially with Ygrite, and a bit with Val and Mel. He doesn't do anything because of his vows. For Pete's sake he only did it with Ygritte when all was on the line, never before. He did everything he could in order to return to the Watch, knowing he could just as easily remain with the wildlings. This is a guy who clearly values his vows a lot. As to him exploring, I'm very curious (and a bit terrified) on how you think he might explore it.

Jon Connington also never thinks about men in a 'strange way' - no idea what that's supposed to be.

Jon is in a strictly male environment, and the vows of the NW do not forbid sexual relations between men - nor is there any chance that Jon would father bastards on some men. And there is at least one homosexual relationship indicated among the NW.

To be clear - I'm not saying Jon will have a homosexual relationship. I just pointed out that you can make a case that he spends more time and shows more favors to a rather attractive homosexual young man who he put into a position that's usually to groom successors or high officers of the Watch. That certainly is significant.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon is in a strictly male environment, and the vows of the NW do not forbid sexual relations between men - nor is there any chance that Jon would father bastards on some men. And there is at least one homosexual relationship indicated among the NW

Not to derail the thread but I find it pretty odd we don't hear about any homosexual experiences or relationships at the Wall. Maybe because Moles town is close? You would just think in a strictly male environment some of this would occur. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

No ,  In Westeros he is a man , He was also ordered by her superior ride with the Wildlings . Jon willing performed that act on her .

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not to derail the thread but I find it pretty odd we don't hear about any homosexual experiences or relationships at the Wall. Maybe because Moles town is close? You would just think in a strictly male environment some of this would occur. 

I'm not actually sure how there would be that much visits to mole town. 

Most of the men are not Romeos who’d be able to woo a woman/girl.

Most would not have coin to pay a whore.

It doesn't seem homosexuality is that taboo in the watch.

Bowen Marsh’s complaint about Jon’s steward seemed more centered around the boy’s former life of a prostitute rather than the possibility of him being a none-heterosexual.

Also, I am surprised we don't hear about more sexual abuse going on between the brothers.

Look at any organization with the framework of extremely limiting rights, dehumanization, a glorification of violence and subjugation of men you’ll probably find rape to be a big problem.

Rape first and foremost is about control. Controlling another human being in the most intimate physically is a way to establish a sense of control. 

Rape in the US military and prison system is a massive problem largely because of the environment they put people under. 

The Watch little more than a walking prison full of rapists, men who enjoy violence. 

It’s a wonder that Jon or really any of his friends never seem see/hear any such abuse happening.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

No ,  In Westeros he is a man , He was also ordered by her superior ride with the Wildlings . Jon willing performed that act on her .

He performed under the threat of torture and death. 

Him getting placed in a situation doesn't detract from that. 

Also, men could be raped by women. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I'm not actually sure how there would be that much visits to mole town. 

Most of the men are not Romeos who’d be able to woo a woman/girl.

Most would not have coin to pay a whore.

It doesn't seem homosexuality is that taboo in the watch.

Bowen Marsh’s complaint about Jon’s steward seemed more centered around the boy’s former life of a prostitute rather than the possibility of him being a none-heterosexual.

Also, I am surprised we don't hear about more sexual abuse going on between the brothers.

Look at any organization with the framework of extremely limiting rights, dehumanization, a glorification of violence and subjugation of men you’ll probably find rape to be a big problem.

Rape first and foremost is about control. Controlling another human being in the most intimate physically is a way to establish a sense of control. 

Rape in the US military and prison system is a massive problem largely because of the environment they put people under. 

The Watch little more than a walking prison full of rapists, men who enjoy violence. 

 It’s a wonder that Jon or really any of his friends never seem see/hear any such abuse happening.

 

thats very unrealistic

[The Marquis de Leech]

My country has a common-law system... and as per the earlier discussion, women technically can't rape. The equivalent offence for them is sexual assault, which carries the same maximum penalty.

Anyway, to convict Ygritte here, you need to prove three things:

(1) Sex occurred.

(2) Jon did not consent to the sex.

(3) Ygritte lacked a reasonable belief that Jon was consenting.

(1) is non-contentious: Jon's penis penetrated Ygritte's vagina. Much of the discussion thus far has focused on (2), and how the implicit threats surrounding the situation makes Jon's consent rather moot. However, no-one has yet mentioned (3) - did Ygritte believe that Jon was consenting? That's actually the one that I think would get Ygritte off (if you'll pardon the expression), since in common law criminal cases, the standard for conviction is beyond reasonable doubt. 

So yeah... I think a criminal prosecution would fail, but it's morally very icky on Ygritte's part. If in doubt, reverse the genders, and imagine Joanna Snow and Ygri the Wilding.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 2/24/2020 at 5:58 AM, Peach King said:

Isn't Fat Walda like 15 and Roose 30?  And there's also the legal power he holds over her as her husband.

@Nagini's Neville The wiki says she's 3 years older.

Fat Walda is 15-16, and Roose (in the book) is in his 50s. His eldest son was of an age to race horses against Lyanna Stark.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 2/24/2020 at 4:47 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, the Val business is open to debate, but Jon doesn't even try with either woman, no? He recognizes their beauty but doesn't hang out with them, doesn't make a move, doesn't try anything. He doesn't even seem to grieve for Ygritte in a strong way, nor does he seem to have a strong sex drive (there is no masturbation going on in his chapters, unlike Tyrion's in ADwD).

In fact, I find the idea that Jon might about to be discover that he also likes boys not that far-fetched. Satin is a person he chooses to be his new steward and squire, and I would find it rather interesting if it turned out that Jon was bisexual or at least willing to explore that kind of thing. I guess his death is likely going to cut that thing short ... but then, it might turn out that Satin will be the guy caring for the corpse and eventually the resurrected Jon Snow. Who knows what's going to develop from that?

I would point out that Tyrion is the only male character in the entire book series where masturbation is mentioned - but I'd suggest it's rather more common than that. Hell, pre-Reek Theon Greyjoy is as horny as they come, and he never mentions it in his POVs either.

On the other hand, a bisexual book Jon would actually make him interesting, which he certainly isn't at the moment.  

[Peach King]

On 2/25/2020 at 9:22 AM, The Marquis de Leech said:

Fat Walda is 15-16, and Roose (in the book) is in his 50s. His eldest son was of an age to race horses against Lyanna Stark.

At least they're a happy couple?

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Fat Walda is 15-16, and Roose (in the book) is in his 50s. His eldest son was of an age to race horses against Lyanna Stark.

No, I think the comment was he was faster than Lyanna, not that he raced her.

He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."

Lyanna's fame at horse riding is mentioned by multiple characters in the series, this seems to be a comparison rather than them being of the same generation. Domeric died in 297, having only recently returned from his foster House in the Vale.

The Lord of the Dreadfort did not have a strong likeness to his bastard son. His face was clean-shaved, smooth-skinned, ordinary, not handsome but not quite plain. Though Roose had been in battles, he bore no scars. Though well past forty, he was as yet unwrinkled, with scarce a line to tell of the passage of time.

In his 40's rather than 50's.

[Lord Varys]

The interesting thing about Roose and Walda is that both seem to enjoy their sex - which is surprising both because of Roose's fucked-up personality and because of the age gap.

It seems to be one of those successful arranged marriages. Edmure-Roslin would be another one of those.

On 2/24/2020 at 3:54 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not to derail the thread but I find it pretty odd we don't hear about any homosexual experiences or relationships at the Wall. Maybe because Moles town is close? You would just think in a strictly male environment some of this would occur. 

We do have Garth Greyfeather and Alf of Runnymudd. I guess George originally did not think about exploring this in great detail, although the fact that the focus of the Watch plot is, at first, almost exclusively on Jon and the new recruits it makes sense that this would not be hitting people in the face.

And the fact that a brothel and women are not that far away also allows people other ways to have sex.

Although I'd still say that the percentage of homosexual sex/affairs/relationship in the Watch must be a little bit higher than in other environments - men who would not want to experiment with their own homosexual desires and tendencies under other circumstances might do that at the Wall. Especially those who have no intention to ever break their vows by having sex with women.

20 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

I would point out that Tyrion is the only male character in the entire book series where masturbation is mentioned - but I'd suggest it's rather more common than that. Hell, pre-Reek Theon Greyjoy is as horny as they come, and he never mentions it in his POVs either.

Sure, I know that, but Tyrion being cut off from women willing to fuck him led to his masturbation scene in ADwD. Jon did have Ygritte in ASoS ... yet he doesn't get a masturbation scene afterwards. We can see Tyrion as a very, very horny character and Jon as a less horny guy, I'd say. It is also possible George didn't want to explore that kind of stuff with Jon, of course. And I definitely don't believe Tyrion is the only character we should imagine masturbating.

Theon and many of the other horny noble pricks seem to have entered into sex with people as early as they could. Doesn't mean they do not also masturbate, of course, but possible less often than a real world youth growing up with less immediate control over the women in his environment. A youth like Theon should be able to have sex with essentially every female commoner he comes in contact with as soon as he leaves his chambers (and definitely with all the female commoners who take care of him and his chambers).

20 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

On the other hand, a bisexual book Jon would actually make him interesting, which he certainly isn't at the moment.  

If George wanted to explore this kind of thing he could have Satin tend Jon's corpse and later be the only person caring for 'wolf Jon', helping him to put himself back together in some form. It strikes me not as unlikely that something like that might happen, because we don't really have a person around Jon right now who would really tend him 24/7. Val and Mel are not very close to him ... and they are not the kind of people who burden themselves with caring for a corpse or beast-man their entire time. If Ygritte were still alive she might be able to do that, and if Sam or one of Jon's other friends were still at Castle Black they might do that. But they are all gone.

George and Lisa Tuttle have a long sequence of a caring man nursing the protagonist to health after a severe injury (Maris in Windhaven), so this is a thing that might happen again in some form with Jon.

And George definitely will use Satin some more or else he wouldn't have made him Jon's steward and squire.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Although I'd still say that the percentage of homosexual sex/affairs/relationship in the Watch must be a little bit higher than in other environments - men who would not want to experiment with their own homosexual desires and tendencies under other circumstances might do that at the Wall. Especially those who have no intention to ever break their vows by having sex with women

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Guys who wouldn't experiment otherwise would here, presumably. 

I don't see the clues leading to a possible Satin/Jon relationship. Maybe I just don't pay enough attention to that stuff. Apparently that's an issue I have IRL also; I had a very close friend growing up & after we turned into adults & didn't hang out often, she one day introduced me to her girlfriend. I never had a clue. I called one of our other friends later & was talking to her about it & she said she always knew. I suppose it just doesnt make a lot of difference to me, so I don't look for those signs. Idk lol

[Khal Eazy]

But Jon is not gonna say no...because of the implication...

[Corvo the Crow]

On 2/23/2020 at 7:04 PM, Peach King said:

He was born in 283 AC, and Storm took place in 299 AC.

So? It may very well be that he was born towards the end of the year and this takes place at the start of the year, making him 15. 

When Benjen takes him he says he’ll be 15 in his next name day. When Robb leads the army he is 15. Jon is younger than Robb, several months at least, based on Ned’s lie that Wylla is his mother.

 

[Peach King]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So? It may very well be that he was born towards the end of the year and this takes place at the start of the year, making him 15. 

When Benjen takes him he says he’ll be 15 in his next name day. When Robb leads the army he is 15. Jon is younger than Robb, several months at least, based on Ned’s lie that Wylla is his mother.

 

Quote

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing.

-A Storm of Swords, Jon II

 

Quote

 

Ygritte pushed herself onto an elbow. "I am nineteen, and a spearwife, and kissed by fire. How could I be maiden?"

- A Storm of Swords, Jon III

If Ygritte is 3 years older than Jon and 19 years old, that means Jon is 16.

ASOS doesn't take place at the start of 299 AC. It takes place at the end of 299 AC and moves onto 300 AC.

[Hugorfonics]

48 minutes ago, Khal Eazy said:

But Jon is not gonna say no...because of the implication...

Holy shit! I really meant to stay out of this thread.

Great post Ser. 

That's really it, your up in the relaxing mountains... In the middle of nowhere, and you can't refuse.... Because shes a fucking spearwife!

Lol, i mean, when he get out of that toxic relationship she shot him! Not even Dennis would do that

[R2D]

Reminder that Lord Varys thinks couples like Edmure and Roslin (late 20s and 16) and Roose and Walda (40s and 15) are successful. He also likes many incest couples.

But he'll say Jon and Ygritte is a horrible couple.