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Alyn Oakenfist

Is Ygritte a rapist?

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Oh Yes.  Rape can only be legally performed by a man through penetration of vagina, mouth or anus.

A woman can be convicted of aiding and abetting rape, and various forms of sexual assault, but it is legally impossible for her to be a rapist.  I expect the same would be true in most US States.

OMG that is absolutely appalling. Something should be done about that. But for example if a woman had sex with a minor, she'd be convicted of rape wouldn't she?

But man, if that's really true something needs to be done about that as soon as possibly. If a woman forces a man to penetrate her, that's equally rape as vice versa. I know it's in my country. penetration needs to be involved for it to be considered rape, everything else is sexual assault. 

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26 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Huh? According to the British papers I read females get imprisoned for it all the time.

Not an expert on the matter but i think it's on statutory rape, ie, grown woman having sex with a boy (yuck) or for related things like blackmail, not for the act itself.

But yes the law on this regard is massively fucked up in most countries. For example in the US while women are legally able to commit rape, however if they get pregnant the man still has to pay alimony. In most countries however rape can only happen with penetration so when women do it, it (I'm not calling a rapist a he or a she, they're not human beings) has to be punished for the auxiliary crimes not the thing per se (battery, blackmail, whatever). That's not even mentioning the fact that men report it even fewer times then women (who already report it way too few times) due to the social stigma of the thing. Our society has finally learned compassion for women victims of rape, however it is still very bad to be a man who was raped in our society nowadays has the worst expectations of men on one hand expecting them to be a ,,man" and not complain and on the other hand thinking that all men want to have sex with everybody and thus that the rape didn't really happen. Obviously all these lines of thought are absolute bullshit, however it does result in this phenomenon being actually quite widespread but horrifically underreported.

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But for example if a woman had sex with a minor, she'd be convicted of rape wouldn't she?

Yes she would thank God, but in the US at least the boy still has to pay alimony. 

5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I know it's in my country. penetration needs to be involved for it to be considered rape, everything else is sexual assault. 

Unfortunately that's the same case in mine, where something like this usually gets a suspended sentence (except if there was some battery involved, in which case it's 4-5 years in prison compared to the more normal 15-20 years in a gender reversal case). And we're lucky. In most cases it's not even sexual assault. Talk about sexual inequality, and that's not even mentioning that male rapists get their just comeuppance in the prison shower unlike their female conterparts.

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Hardly any sex scene in the books is unproblematic or unmistakably consensual. It's another problem in the books.

I'd say there are quite a few such - Asha and Qarl in ADwD is a very sex-positive scene of a couple living their sexual fantasies, Ned and Cat in AGoT, Arianne and Arys in AFfC are very consensual, too, Daario and Dany in ADwD, Roose and Walda (although we never see them).

There are also quite a few problematic scenes, of course.

57 minutes ago, TedBear said:

Certainly, even though he responded in the sexual act, he was coerced to do that to prove that he had left the NW, if he didn't, he had a good chance of being killed, I don't know if that would be totally fit as a rape if you take into account some legislation, much less in a medieval setting, but I think it was a rape. 

Sure, by the standards of Westeros I don't think anyone would say that women can 'rape' people. Men would be the only ones who could be guilty of rape, although the victims of male rape would be both women and men (one such case is Maester Kerwin).

But by our standards Jon-Ygritte is close to a textbook case of a woman raping a youth/boy.

51 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes and consent is primarily a new concept, that didn't really exist in the Middle Ages. Rape was a crime against the husband or father not the woman herself and rape of men was probably not acknowledged at all, but the men, who "let that happen" were guilty of sin themselves. Would be my guess at least since I'm not an expert, when it comes to the Middle Ages. 

I don't think it is as simple as that. Sure, the main issue of despoiling a woman is that she is damaged good for her male owners now, but Westerosi marriage customs (especially the more progressive marriage concept of the Andals) involves consent on part of the wife, meaning that a woman refusing to marry would definitely be seen as being raped if she was forced to have sex against her will.

39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

To the people in their society, especially her (Wildling) society, no. To us it certainly seems that way. A prisoner threatened with his life if he did not sleep with one of his jailers would certainly be rape in our society.

To GRRM I'm not so sure. These books were written 20 years ago by a man in his 50's. His thoughts on rape may have changed in that the last two decades, but certainly our societies thoughts on rape has changed in the last 20-30 years. Things that may have been acceptable when GRRM was in his 20's/30's/40's is not today.

I do think some readers get hung up on the 'rapes' in the series. That some readers don't seem to mind the murder or other violence characters do to get their way, but seem unsettled about the rape in the series. That some in the fandom find it easier to excuse people of the Middle Ages from physical violence but once they rape someone they become irredeemable.

Things do change. But for what it's worth I definitely don't think rape is a particularly bad crime in this world and in those books, nor do I think people are irredeemable because they raped some people. The characters are more complex than that. Drogo is child molester and rapist and he is still one of the better Dothraki with a sympathetic side to him. Similar things go for Ygritte and quite a few other characters.

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19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Dunno, if I'd say irredeemable, because as you say the context and culture is important, but rape and sexual abuse is hardly ever "necessary". Killing can is some cases be "justified", self-defense, you are a solider, have no choice, if you don't want to endanger yourself or you loved- ones, that's hardly ever the case for rape or sexual abuse, except maybe for the purpose of heir-making. Other than that you hardly ever improve your situation by raping or sexually abusing someone. And there is just something so wrong about "taking your pleasure" or whatever you get out of it, by inflicting pain and suffering on someone else. It is a form of torture and torture is for me personally also worse than killing. That doesn't mean, that you can't examine every case individually, while considering the context and culture.

True. But these are ignorant times, many don't even realize how wrong they are. They are brought up with different values.

I'd bet rape was pretty common. Tyrion comes off as a lovable rogue until he rapes that sex slave, but I wonder how many of the whores he slept with, brought to him by armed men like Bronn and Jyck to sleep with him

Be certain that you tell her who I am, and warn her of what I am." Jyck had not always troubled to do that. There was a look the girls got in their eyes sometimes when they first beheld the lordling they'd been hired to pleasure … a look that Tyrion Lannister did not ever care to see again.

Many of these whores would be scared of the consequences of saying no or would have their own pimps making them do these things. In our own age in the Western world there is still enforced slavery in the prostitution racket, this would be far worse in the middle ages. Yet from what we know most of the male nobles partake in this.

"She's a prize of war." Bracken retrieved his breeches from the floor and shook them out. "She belonged to one of Blackwood's sworn swords till I split his head in two. Put your hands down, woman. My lord of Lannister wants a proper look at those teats."

Is Hildy in a position to say no to Bracken, to Jaime is she was offered? There is likely a lot of rape in their society that the men of their time don't even realize that it is rape. Different mindset.

 

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3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not an expert on the matter but i think it's on statutory rape, ie, grown woman having sex with a boy (yuck) or for related things like blackmail, not for the act itself.

But yes the law on this regard is massively fucked up in most countries. For example in the US while women are legally able to commit rape, however if they get pregnant the man still has to pay alimony. In most countries however rape can only happen with penetration so when women do it, it (I'm not calling a rapist a he or a she, they're not human beings) has to be punished for the auxiliary crimes not the thing per se (battery, blackmail, whatever). That's not even mentioning the fact that men report it even fewer times then women (who already report it way too few times) due to the social stigma of the thing. Our society has finally learned compassion for women victims of rape, however it is still very bad to be a man who was raped in our society nowadays has the worst expectations of men on one hand expecting them to be a ,,man" and not complain and on the other hand thinking that all men want to have sex with everybody and thus that the rape didn't really happen. Obviously all these lines of though are absolute bullshit, however it does result in this phenomenon being actually quite widespread but horrifically underreported.

I agree. A friend of mine was raped by a girl. It was a friend of his. They were out partying. He got completely drunk and she slept over. He woke up with her on top of him. He immediately knew he didn't want it, but he was so drunk, that he couldn't stop her, shifting in and out of it. But of course he shouldn't even have been in a situation, where he should have had to stop her, she was sexually assaulting him from the moment she started touching him, when he was unconscious.

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1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

True. But these are ignorant times, many don't even realize how wrong they are. They are brought up with different values.

I'd bet rape was pretty common. Tyrion comes off as a lovable rogue until he rapes that sex slave, but I wonder how many of the whores he slept with, brought to him by armed men like Bronn and Jyck to sleep with him

Be certain that you tell her who I am, and warn her of what I am." Jyck had not always troubled to do that. There was a look the girls got in their eyes sometimes when they first beheld the lordling they'd been hired to pleasure … a look that Tyrion Lannister did not ever care to see again.

Many of these whores would be scared of the consequences of saying no or would have their own pimps making them do these things. In our own age in the Western world there is still enforced slavery in the prostitution racket, this would be far worse in the middle ages. Yet from what we know most of the male nobles partake in this.

"She's a prize of war." Bracken retrieved his breeches from the floor and shook them out. "She belonged to one of Blackwood's sworn swords till I split his head in two. Put your hands down, woman. My lord of Lannister wants a proper look at those teats."

Is Hildy in a position to say no to Bracken, to Jaime is she was offered? There is likely a lot of rape in their society that the men of their time don't even realize that it is rape. Different mindset.

 

They would probably take the view that forcing a woman who was married to another man, or a highborn maid, to have sex, would be rape.

There are probably very few people who would regard it as rape to take a whore, or lowborn unmarried woman by force.

 

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3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not an expert on the matter but i think it's on statutory rape, ie, grown woman having sex with a boy (yuck) or for related things like blackmail, not for the act itself.

But yes the law on this regard is massively fucked up in most countries. For example in the US while women are legally able to commit rape, however if they get pregnant the man still has to pay alimony. In most countries however rape can only happen with penetration so when women do it, it (I'm not calling a rapist a he or a she, they're not human beings) has to be punished for the auxiliary crimes not the thing per se (battery, blackmail, whatever). That's not even mentioning the fact that men report it even fewer times then women (who already report it way too few times) due to the social stigma of the thing. Our society has finally learned compassion for women victims of rape, however it is still very bad to be a man who was raped in our society nowadays has the worst expectations of men on one hand expecting them to be a ,,man" and not complain and on the other hand thinking that all men want to have sex with everybody and thus that the rape didn't really happen. Obviously all these lines of though are absolute bullshit, however it does result in this phenomenon being actually quite widespread but horrifically underreported.

Your reasoning here is actually problematic. Demonising rapists defeats the purpose since;

1 its gets even harder for anyone to admit to doing (almost all rapists deny it until their last breath), 2 it makes it very hard to accept guilt not only for the rapist but also for all who knows him/her (if the rapist isn't truly horrible in all meanings of the word people will have a hard time accepting he/she is capable of something so horrible), 3 this backfires towards the victim who dares accuse someone normal for such a horrible crime and 4 people in general gets rightfully riled up over how awful it'd be to be falsely accused.

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

They were out partying. He got completely drunk and she slept over. He woke up with her on top of him. He immediately knew he didn't want it, but he was so drunk, that he couldn't stop her, shifting in and out of it. But of course he shouldn't even have been in a situation, where he should have had to stop her, she was sexually assaulting him from the moment she started touching him, when he was unconscious.

The worse part is that legally this shit is barely illegal, if somehow she did get convicted it's doubtful she would even get a suspended sentence. Really sorry for your friend. Hopefully the cow didn't also get pregnant so it could steal his money.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think it is as simple as that. Sure, the main issue of despoiling a woman is that she is damaged good for her male owners now, but Westerosi marriage customs (especially the more progressive marriage concept of the Andals) involves consent on part of the wife, meaning that a woman refusing to marry would definitely be seen as being raped if she was forced to have sex against her will.

Sure I'm not denying that. Just saying if a daughter or a wife was raped in the Middle Ages, that was a serious crime against her father or her husband and would be punished harshly, but not against herself. Just like if a woman committed a crime, her husband/ father would be held responsible, not she herself. Because she is basically just a pet or something lol :ack:

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd say there are quite a few such - Asha and Qarl in ADwD is a very sex-positive scene of a couple living their sexual fantasies, Ned and Cat in AGoT, Arianne and Arys in AFfC are very consensual, too, Daario and Dany in ADwD, Roose and Walda (although we never see them).

Gilly and Sam- even though everyone seem to hate that scene

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17 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

OMG that is absolutely appalling. Something should be done about that. But for example if a woman had sex with a minor, she'd be convicted of rape wouldn't she?

But man, if that's really true something needs to be done about that as soon as possibly. If a woman forces a man to penetrate her, that's equally rape as vice versa. I know it's in my country. penetration needs to be involved for it to be considered rape, everything else is sexual assault. 

She'd be convicted of unlawful sexual activity with a minor.  I don't know how common sexual assaults by women are.  Obviously, sexual assaults by men are more common than sexual assaults by women, and most men who commit sexual assaults and rapes get away with it, sadly.  These are extremely difficult crimes to prosecute, not just because of the he said/she said argument, but also because so many people who have been sexually assaulted just don't want to go to court.  People may hate the idea of having to relive the experience in court, or may even want to maintain some sort of relationship with the assailant (if that person is a family member, member of your political party, church, scout group etc.)

But, it's only very recently that English law has caught up with the idea that sexual assaults by women are at all possible.  Up till a short while ago, the general view about f/m sexual assaults would be "you should be so lucky" and f/f sexual assaults would be "that's hot."

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2 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Your reasoning here is actually problematic. Demonising rapists defeats the purpose since;

1 its gets even harder for anyone to admit to doing (almost all rapists deny it until their last breath), 2 it makes it very hard to accept guilt not only for the rapist but also for all who knows him/her (if the rapist isn't truly horrible in all meanings of the word people will have a hard time accepting he/she is capable of something so horrible), 3 this backfires towards the victim who dares accuse someone normal for such a horrible crime and 4 people in general gets rightfully riled up over how awful it'd be to be falsely accused.

I'm sorry, but that's just my opinion. I really thing that rapists are the worst second only to murderers and pedophiles. The solution for rapists and pedophiles should in my opinion be castration with a brick chemicals followed by some 20 years of jail in which they can find out just how nice rape feels from the other side. I do agree that wrongful accusation is horrifying. In that case I think, if it can be proved that the accused did nothing wrong, then the accuser should serve some serious jail time.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

She'd be convicted of unlawful sexual activity with a minor.

That's usually a suspended sentence, especially if the accused is a she.

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't know how common sexual assaults by women are.  Obviously, sexual assaults by men are more common than sexual assaults by women, and most men who commit sexual assaults and rapes get away with it, sadly.

While sexual assaults by men are more common, the ratio is far tighter then most people think, but due to the social stigma of being a male raped by a woman such cases are horrifically under reported.

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11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sure I'm not denying that. Just saying if a daughter or a wife was raped in the Middle Ages, that was a serious crime against her father or her husband and would be punished harshly, but not against herself. Just like if a woman committed a crime, her husband/ father would be held responsible, not she herself. Because she is basically just a pet or something lol :ack:

That's an interesting point, and I would say, fair for its time.   English law held up till 1927, that if a woman committed a variety of serious crimes on the instruction of her husband, and could prove that fact, she would be acquitted, and the husband held liable.  After that, there was a more limited defence of matrimonial coercion, which was only abolished in 2013.

And, that is a case of a sexist legal system trying to be civilised;  acknowledging that the system is weighted heavily against women, and therefore it is unfair to hold a woman responsible to the same degree that you would hold a man responsible.  It ties in neatly with some of the discussions we've been having about collective punishment on other threads.  Brutes will slaughter women and children, along with adult male enemies;  civilised people recognise that women and children should be spared, even as adult males can be executed without a qualm.

Edited by SeanF

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16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Unfortunately that's the same case in mine, where something like this usually gets a suspended sentence (except if there was some battery involved, in which case it's 4-5 years in prison compared to the more normal 15-20 years in a gender reversal case). And we're lucky. In most cases it's not even sexual assault. Talk about sexual inequality, and that's not even mentioning that male rapists get their just comeuppance in the prison shower unlike their female conterparts.

No, that's not what I meant. In my country penetration needs to be involved for it to be considered rape. But a woman forcing a man to penetrate her is equally considered rape as vice versa. And that's how it should be. 

I agree with you that we have a culture, that doesn't take sexual abuse (or abuse in general) of men seriously, which is absolutely wrong and needs to change asap.

I've heard prison rape is actually not as common as it's always made out to be, though.

That's good video about it. 

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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It's dubious consent at best. Jon was put between a rock and a hard place by Qhorin to start who likely knew this would happen, then by Mance who threatened him. Ygritte took advantage of the situation to get what she wanted. 

 

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15 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's usually a suspended sentence, especially if the accused is a she.

While sexual assaults by men are more common, the ratio is far tighter then most people think, but due to the social stigma of being a male raped by a woman such cases are horrifically under reported.

I definitely agree, that there's probably a huge dark digit (do you say it like that). IMO domestic abuse against men is probably even more common, than rape. 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I've heard prison rape is actually not as common as it's always made out to be, though.

Well, I guess it depends from country to country and even from prison to prison. In my country at least it's fairly common and unofficial and I can't say I'm sorry about those rapists.

25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

We need to be conscious of how our culture in affecting victims and is making it easier for predators to get away with their crimes and that's actually what rape culture is (it's not people walking around being openly pro rape or something)

This is 100% true and needs to be said a lot more often. Luckily the most common type of rape (man rapes woman) is already pretty decently dealt with and the victims are helped. We should however try to expand that are to include all types of rape, cause it's just as horrifying regardless of the gender of the rapist or the rape victim.

25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No, that's not what I meant. In my country penetration needs to be involved for it to be considered rape. But a woman forcing a man to penetrate her is equally considered rape as vice versa.

Then you're really lucky.

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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