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Alyn Oakenfist

Is Ygritte a rapist?

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10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not really actually, but I get your point. The women's situation is so messed up that Jaime should be trying to help her. Again I'm not condoning his actions,

maybe it depends on the country. Looking at someone naked without their consent is definitely a form of sexual abuse where I'm from and in this case would also count as failure to render assistance. 

14 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm just saying that in the context of the story it's fairly tame.

agreed 

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7 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, you're right. I totally forgot about that. There really are only one or two non problematic sex scenes. No wonder I dislike them mostly.

That is probably due in large part to the fact that happy couples aren't very dramatic, so we don't read much about them.  The ones that are interesting are also the ones that are problematic, for the most part.  That's fiction for you.

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1 minute ago, Nevets said:

That is probably due in large part to the fact that happy couples aren't very dramatic, so we don't read much about them.  The ones that are interesting are also the ones that are problematic, for the most part.  That's fiction for you.

Oh man, and I thought it would be just like the notebook :dunno:

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2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The worse part is that legally this shit is barely illegal, if somehow she did get convicted it's doubtful she would even get a suspended sentence. Really sorry for your friend. Hopefully the cow didn't also get pregnant so it could steal his money.

Thanks, that's really nice!

No, nothing like that thank goodness. Thankfully it was at least protected rape ( ugh sounds gross :ack: not that she deserves credit for that) but I don't think, that's legal in my country to demand alimonies- got to do research on it- that's just horrific

He never reported her, took him long enough to even tell anyone about it. 

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Ygritte did not rape Jon Snow. Ygritte saved Jon's life by lying to Mance that she and Jon have been fucking for a time as in that was supposed to be proof that Jon broke his oath and is one of them now. Later, she did all she could to seduce him, giving Jon endless boners etc until Jon gave in. No rape. 

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18 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Thanks, that's really nice!

No, nothing like that thank goodness. Thankfully it was at least protected rape ( ugh sounds gross :ack: not that she deserves credit for that) but I don't think, that's legal in my country to demand alimonies- got to do research on it- that's just horrific

He never reported her, took him long enough to even tell anyone about it. 

My heart hurts for your friend. I'm not much of a "hugger" but if I could, I would give him a big hug. 

To continue on part of your previous conversation I've heard that the reason a child molester or rapist don't get the punishment that most of us would like is because basically there has to be some incentive not to kill the victim, as bad as that sounds. For instance if a criminal knows they may get 50 years in prison for rape or molestation & 50 years in prison for murder it would make them less likely to let their victim go afterwards because if the victim isn't alive, they can't tell. Of course they could still get caught for the murder but they are facing the same amount of time they would have. I don't know if I necessarily agree with this idea or that I agree it works but I understand the premise behind it. 

It's very unfortunate that rape often comes down to one persons word against the other. I cannot imagine how devastating it would be to finally gather the strength to report the perpetrator only to have nothing be done & worse be called a liar. 

On the flip side of that I think we, as a society have a tendency to believe the victim (which is great if they are truly a victim) or the woman or the child in the situation. The issue with this is that some women lie about things like this & while most young children wouldn't out & out lie they are very susceptible to leading. An adult can convince a child these things happened to them, even when they did not. I cannot imagine, either, how devastating it would be to be wrongfully accused & convicted of rape or molestation. 

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People's ideas of rape are often relative to who the assaulter is and who the victim is.

If it's say an unmarried young virgin girl is raped by a stranger(especially if the stranger comes from a group that is seen as deviant), in let's say here home then most people in a community would categorize that as rape.

But if a whore is raped by a client than more people will be inclined to see it as not rape. 

If a woman is raped by her husband that too is often not seen as such by too many people under the slim justification of if a man has a romantic relationship with a woman that means he could interpret her nos to mean yes, and her silence(even if she can't make a sound) as consent.

If a gay man is raped by another man that too is often maligned as not that bad. After all they're gay, why would they not want to bone every guy in sight?

Plenty of people genuinely cannot picture a scenario where a man refuses sex from a woman.

Let's take the scenario Jon found himself in and do a slight gender swap.

A woman is with a group of violent murdering brutes who are on the cusp of torturing/murdering her if she doesn't prove she is truly on her side.

A man who in the group whose previously been rebuffed the woman’s sexual advances-from flirtation to inappropriate touching-steps in and ”claims” the woman as his own sexual partner. 

Then after the group of murdering brutes leaves the man tells the woman she should/will sleep him. 

”Consent” here in any reasonable interpretation is not here.

I believe more people would recognize this scenario is rape if Ygritte was a man, and Jon a woman. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

People's ideas of rape are often relative to who the assaulter is and who the victim is.

If it's say an unmarried young virgin girl is raped by a stranger(especially if the stranger comes from a group that is seen as deviant), in let's say here home then most people in a community would categorize that as rape.

But if a whore is raped by a client than more people will be inclined to see it as not rape. 

If a woman is raped by her husband that too is often not seen as such by too many people under the slim justification of if a man has a romantic relationship with a woman that means he could interpret her nos to mean yes, and her silence(even if she can't make a sound) as consent.

If a gay man is raped by another man that too is often maligned as not that bad. After all they're gay, why would they not want to bone every guy in sight?

Plenty of people genuinely cannot picture a scenario where a man refuses sex from a woman.

Let's take the scenario Jon found himself in and do a slight gender swap.

A woman is with a group of violent murdering brutes who are on the cusp of torturing/murdering her if she doesn't prove she is truly on her side.

A man who in the group whose previously been rebuffed the woman’s sexual advances-from flirtation to inappropriate touching-steps in and ”claims” the woman as his own sexual partner. 

Then after the group of murdering brutes leaves the man tells the woman she should/will sleep him. 

”Consent” here in any reasonable interpretation is not here.

I believe more people would recognize this scenario is rape if Ygritte was a man, and Jon a woman. 

I agree with your post as a whole but don't think that the bolded is necessarily a good thing. It should only be viewed as rape, if it is indeed rape. Regardless of the victim or perpetrators gender, sexual orientation, age, race, religious beliefs etc. 

I'm not wholly convinced one way or another on Jon & Ygritte & would feel the same if the rolls were reversed. 

My point being that just because someone does not view it as rape doesn't mean it's a matter of that person thinking men can't be raped. Certainly, men can be raped and it's a very ignorant, uninformed, persons opinion who thinks otherwise. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

My heart hurts for your friend. I'm not much of a "hugger" but if I could, I would give him a big hug. 

thank you so much! I hug him often :) He is a very brave and tough cookie and an all around amazing human being.

Quote

To continue on part of your previous conversation I've heard that the reason a child molester or rapist don't get the punishment that most of us would like is because basically there has to be some incentive not to kill the victim, as bad as that sounds. For instance if a criminal knows they may get 50 years in prison for rape or molestation & 50 years in prison for murder it would make them less likely to let their victim go afterwards because if the victim isn't alive, they can't tell. Of course they could still get caught for the murder but they are facing the same amount of time they would have. I don't know if I necessarily agree with this idea or that I agree it works but I understand the premise behind it.

IMO in the US rape and child molestation already gets punished quite seriously in comparison to my country. In my country... just forget it it's really a shame. I think most Americans couldn't even believe it. You have to do more prison time for tax evasion or minor non-violent stuff, than rape or child molestation. 

Just for an example. It happened in Austria, which basically has the same laws as my country. Most people know the famous Josef Fritzl, who imprisoned his own daughter, case. before that he however did this. That's directly from wiki:

"In 1967, Fritzl broke into the Linz home of a 24-year-old nurse while her husband was away and raped her while holding a knife to her throat, threatening to kill her if she screamed.[31] According to an annual report for 1967 and a press release of the same year, he was also named as a suspect in a case of attempted rape of a 21-year-old woman, and was known for indecent exposure. Fritzl was arrested and served twelve months of an eighteen-month prison sentence.[32] In accordance with Austrian law, his criminal record was expunged after fifteen years. As a result, more than 25 years later, when he applied to adopt and/or foster Elisabeth's children, the local social service authorities did not discover his criminal history"

Another very recent case, a guy has prostituted his 10 year old step son and another girl all the step son's life and has sexually abused him himself. He got 10 years in prison. Will be out when the poor boy is 21.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

On the flip side of that I think we, as a society have a tendency to believe the victim (which is great if they are truly a victim) or the woman or the child in the situation.

I guess, that mostly depends on the country, but even in the US, I feel like, that has mostly changed in very recent years drastically. When you just look at the Larry Nassar case children and young women have been reporting their abuse since decades, but nobody did anything, only through the me too movement and social media are they finally believed now. And there are just so many other examples like Bill Cosby for example or Weinstein, or sexual harassment in big companies, Matt Lauer, Charlie Rose, Roger Ailes, it's not that people haven't been talking about that before, but nobody really cared. Now all over suddenly there has been a big cultural shift in the US it seems.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

thank you so much! I hug him often :) He is a very brave and tough cookie and an all around amazing human being

That is good to hear :)

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO in the US rape and child molestation already gets punished quite seriously in comparison to my country. In my country... just forget it it's really a shame. I think most Americans couldn't even believe it. You have to do more prison time for tax evasion or minor non-violent stuff, than rape or child molestation

Maybe, nationwide that's the case (in the US) generally speaking but child molestation isn't punished nearly harsh enough in my surrounding area. 

An example, that represents the "norm" This is a man that I knew. He got caught, red handed, in the act of molesting his young daughter. He was sentenced to serve 4 years in prison. With good behavior he was out in 18 months. He was supposed to register as a sex offender & did not. It took law enforcement a few months to find him. When they did he went to jail for a few weeks until court & then was released. This time he complied with the order to register as a sex offender & after a very short time got arrested for molesting the neighbor girl. The evidence was overwhelming & he again got sentenced to 4 years in prison & this time was released in 2. So this man has absolutely devastated the lives of 2 young girls & has served a total of 3.5 years in prison for it. That is absolutely disgusting to me. 

To clarify, I meant his sentence was the "norm", not his actions. 

I think a predator gets more time if the rape or molestation is violent but it still is not enough imo. 

9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Just for an example. It happened in Austria, which basically has the same laws as my country. Most people know the famous Josef Fritzl, who imprisoned his own daughter, case. before that he however did this. That's directly from wiki

Yes, I've heard of this. Absolutely disgusting! 

 

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

guess, that mostly depends on the country, but even in the US, I feel like, that has mostly changed in very recent years drastically. When you just look at the Larry Nassar case children and young women have been reporting their abuse since decades, but nobody did anything, only through the me too movement and social media are they finally believed now. And there are just so many other examples like Bill Cosby for example or Weinstein, or sexual harassment in big companies, Matt Lauer, Charlie Rose, Roger Ailes, it's not that people haven't been talking about that before, but nobody really cared. Now all over suddenly there has been a big cultural shift in the US it seems

Yeah, I am very uninformed when it comes to other countries but you are right, it is changing & I agree I don't think it was a matter of not believing them but more of not caring. 

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4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

At first I thought this was just going to be another one of those Janos Slynt oppressed hero or Walder Frey was misunderstood threads. But thinking about it, there was an implied threat and power disparity over Jon giving into Ygrette's desires. I'm not so sure as I would go so far as to call it rape, as Jon did seem to willingly give in. This was in his POV after all and he didn't describe feeling violated. But they way she manipulated him into the situation was shady as fuck, even if she wouldn't have turned him in if he failed to comply, which we don't know. 

It is comparable to Dany 'giving consent' after Drogo had touched her and made her oh so wet. Dany also didn't feel violated after her first night with Drogo - despite the fact that she molested and abused and raped in her wedding night. She never had any choice in the matter.

Ygritte was less physical but she, too, looked for a young and exotic piece of meet she could make into her plaything. The woman was sickly obsessed with Jon Snow. The guy killed Orell and nearly killed her and this made her hot? How sick do you have to be to fall in love/desire Jon in her position?

And her constantly harassing and molesting Jon when he was in a vulnerable position is just wrong on so many levels. Jon was in no position to tell her to go fuck herself. He was at the mercy of the wildlings and Ygritte was one of the few people who defended him and seemed to like him. He was in no position to oppose her advances.

And just as we don't know how great Dany's first night with Drogo was (perhaps it was very painful and not fun at all?) we have no idea what happened after Ygritte told Jon point blank that he had to fuck her now. We only meet him some time later after the hormones have kicked in and Ygritte no longer seems homely to him.

We don't judge this kind of thing by how the characters see it themselves (or interpret it to feel better) but by how the power dynamic is and what choice the people involved had. And there it is quite clear that Jon actually had even less power than Dany. She could have told Viserys and Illyrio and Drogo no - nobody had threatened her very life. But Jon basically had a choice between fucking the wildling and risking being killed.

I mean, keep in mind that this happened right after Mance Rayder had found out that Jon had lied to him about how and why he was north of the Wall. They had just discovered what had happened at the Fist. Jon was completely at Ygritte's mercy, completely dependent on whatever influence she wielded with Mance to stay alive. And the only thing that saved him was doing what Ygritte wanted of him.

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Another thing is that I don't think Ygritte necessarily intended to take him against his will. I think she thought she was seducing him, at least mostly. Not to say it being rape depends on whether or not the perpetrator intends for it to be. 

Seduction doesn't seem to be something the wildings do. A culture where women are stolen doesn't involve the concept of consent of persuading people to change their mind. You take what you want, you don't ask for it.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's an odd situation in that Ygritte doesn't have the strength to physically force him but she does, in theory, have enough strength to force him by other means. Would she have? I don't know, maybe. Ygritte was a wildling to the bone. She cared for Jon & iirc she was willing to give up, if not her way of life, all her clansmen & everything that comes along with them to run off with Jon. But that was after he reciprocated some of her feelings, willingly or no. 

Ygritte had no intention of giving up her way of life for Jon. That's very clear. For her Jon is hers now, and she is clearly not making any compromises. She is also no nice or even good person. She kills that poor old guy without a second thought, and rather than refusing to attack Castle Black she attacks it with the others, risking to kill Jon in the process of it. She never really considers that she and Jon leave the gang nor does she ever consider to try to team up with the NW somehow. Instead, she hates the Wall and the NW with a passion and wants to bring them both down.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

As I said, I think it depends on whether or not Jon thought the threat was real & I think he did. Again, I'll have to reread it. If he felt as if he had no choice but to have sex with her & that is the reason he agrees to have sex with her then, yeah, it's rape. I do think that may not have been the only reason he agrees though. 

It is irrelevant whether he had other reasons. He was under pressure and couldn't make a free choice. This kind of reasoning borders on 'it isn't rape when the victim enjoys it' or 'it isn't rape when the victim looked like she wanted it' or 'it cannot be rape if the victim desired the offender'.

The issue is about power and control. Ygritte had all power and control, and Jon had none.

 

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34 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

An example, that represents the "norm" This is a man that I knew. He got caught, red handed, in the act of molesting his young daughter. He was sentenced to serve 4 years in prison. With good behavior he was out in 18 months. He was supposed to register as a sex offender & did not. It took law enforcement a few months to find him. When they did he went to jail for a few weeks until court & then was released. This time he complied with the order to register as a sex offender & after a very short time got arrested for molesting the neighbor girl. The evidence was overwhelming & he again got sentenced to 4 years in prison & this time was released in 2. So this man has absolutely devastated the lives of 2 young girls & has served a total of 3.5 years in prison for it. That is absolutely disgusting to me. 

To clarify, I meant his sentence was the "norm", not his actions. 

I think a predator gets more time if the rape or molestation is violent but it still is not enough imo. 

wow, okay then it definitely makes a wrong impression from far away. It's really horrible, that those ppl have to be caught repeatedly, before there are any real consequences. But for example to be registered as sex offender for everyone to see doesn't even exist here.

I also of course think being falsely accused is horrible and that possibility should be taken seriously. I just wish they would use more trauma experts in court, because with their help wrong accusers could be found out quite easily. 

And also that those cases would be treated with more discretion and there would be a culture created, where neither the accused would be called a rapist right away, nor the accuser a liar or worse (slut or whatever), but both would be treated like human beings and carefully and with respect, with the knowledge, that this could be potentially very traumatic for both of them.

And also since most rapists and child molester are serial offenders it's just  really important to cultivate a culture, that makes it possible for ppl to come forward about abuse, would be great if that would be more possible for men as well soon. Because usually there's just more that one victim and then the case becomes more clear quickly.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Seduction doesn't seem to be something the wildings do. A culture where women are stolen doesn't involve the concept of consent of persuading people to change their mind. You take what you want, you don't ask for it

I don't know if we see enough of their culture to know if seduction is a part of it. Presumably there is some way for a wildling woman to let a man know she wants him to steal her. I think, to a point, seduction is just a part of being human. We all behave in a manner we think will be pleasing to the person we want to notice us. Not necessarily on a sexual level though. 

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte had no intention of giving up her way of life for Jon. That's very clear. For her Jon is hers now, and she is clearly not making any compromises. She is also no nice or even good person. She kills that poor old guy without a second thought, and rather than refusing to attack Castle Black she attacks it with the others, risking to kill Jon in the process of it. She never really considers that she and Jon leave the gang nor does she ever consider to try to team up with the NW somehow. Instead, she hates the Wall and the NW with a passion and wants to bring them both down

No she doesn't entertain the idea of joining with the NW & she hates them, that's why I said she wasn't willing to change her way of life. But she does tell Jon she will run away with him doesn't she? She has no intention of becoming a kneeler either but is willing to give up her clansmen & friends for him. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is irrelevant whether he had other reasons. He was under pressure and couldn't make a free choice. This kind of reasoning borders on 'it isn't rape when the victim enjoys it' or 'it isn't rape when the victim looked like she wanted it' or 'it cannot be rape if the victim desired the offender'.

The issue is about power and control. Ygritte had all power and control, and Jon had none

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if Jon agreed or conceded or whatever because he truly felt he had no other choice then, yes, it's absolutely rape. But if he agreed to sleep with her because she grew on him or because he was tired of her nagging or any reason other than he actually desired her, then it's not rape. 

I agree the victim of sexual abuse does not always see it as such but I also think it's worth taking into consideration Jon's own thoughts on the matter. He doesn't think about being pressured into having sex, he doesn't think about not having a choice (that I recall, correct me if I'm wrong) So it's possible that the threat or lack of choice was perceived as much greater than it actually was by some readers. 

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4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He was sentenced to serve 4 years in prison. With good behavior he was out in 18 months. He was supposed to register as a sex offender & did not. It took law enforcement a few months to find him. When they did he went to jail for a few weeks until court & then was released. This time he complied with the order to register as a sex offender & after a very short time got arrested for molesting the neighbor girl. The evidence was overwhelming & he again got sentenced to 4 years in prison & this time was released in 2. So this man has absolutely devastated the lives of 2 young girls & has served a total of 3.5 years in prison for it. That is absolutely disgusting to me. 

To be fair those 3.5 years were probably hell on earth. While some may call this inhumane, I actually agree with the ,,special treatment" pedos and rapists get from fellow inmates (I really think those things shouldn't ever get protective custody).

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

only through the me too movement and social media are they finally believed now

It really is a pity that that movement degenerated into every ,,diva" claiming she was harassed by everybody. We went from exposing monsters like Weinstein (or finally condemning ones like Polanski) to reporting a dude for inviting someone for coffee.

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I also of course think being falsely accused is horrible and that possibility should be taken seriously. I just wish they would use more trauma experts in court, because with their help wrong accusers could be found out quite easily. 

Luckily nowadays the standard of proof is so high that it is very hard to convict an innocent man. Damaging his reputation horrifically however is another thing entirely. For such a thing there should be some prison time.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if Jon agreed or conceded or whatever because he truly felt he had no other choice then, yes, it's absolutely rape. But if he agreed to sleep with her because she grew on him or because he was tired of her nagging or any reason other than he actually desired her, then it's not rape. 

Given how much he tells to himself he doesn't want it it's pretty clear how much consent he gives. Now you might argue that he is more deluding himself, but that doesn't really matter in the whole consent thing.

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2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It really is a pity that that movement degenerated into every ,,diva" claiming she was harassed by everybody. We went from exposing monsters like Weinstein (or finally condemning ones like Polanski) to reporting a dude for inviting someone for coffee.

Yeah, I mean I wouldn't reduce it just to that. It started long time before it blew up like this and it's still helping a lot of people. With every good thing, there also comes some bad. That's a normal development unfortunately. Now it's important, that it's able to evolves and that more nuanced discussions are possible. Maybe now it's time for men to take advantage of the movement as well and talk more about their abuse of all sorts :)

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17 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, I mean I wouldn't reduce it just to that. It started long time before it blew up like this and it's still helping a lot of people.

I can't say I share your optimism. Since Weinstein and Spacey, I haven't seen any valid report from the metoo movement, but I have seen a couple that not only were false, but were proven false in court.

19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

ow it's important, that it's able to evolves and that more nuanced discussions are possible.

I think they're getting a bit too nuanced. Sure harassment is bad, but we're getting to a point were men fear to make any advances at all (still out species does need to reproduce, and were rapidly going to a point were all courtship is frowned upon). I think that to keep it relevant we should keep ourself to the illegal and immoral and not include the unwanted.

26 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Maybe now it's time for men to take advantage of the movement as well and talk more about their abuse of all sorts :)

That would be really nice but I find it doubtful. First off our society is still idiotic when it comes to this type a thing and second off the ,,feminists" (they call themselves that but they're values and targets have nothing to do with fairness and equality) would probably start screaming and kicking that the ,,patriarchy" is trying to hijack their movement.

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[mod] Can we get back to the topic, please? This is the book forum, let's stick to discussing the books. There's a forum for discussing #metoo and other stuff. Thanks. [/mod]

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8 minutes ago, mormont said:

[mod] Can we get back to the topic, please? This is the book forum, let's stick to discussing the books. There's a forum for discussing #metoo and other stuff. Thanks. [/mod]

Yeah you're probably right. Come to think about it all the discussions on this website containing morally grey sexual stuff seem to degenerate quite quickly.

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