Is Ygritte a rapist?

[Sigella]

On 26 februari 2020 at 1:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

It seems to be one of those successful arranged marriages. Edmure-Roslin would be another one of those.

I get what you mean, Edmure and Roslin was a good match and might have been very happy. But I'm still giggling over calling their horrid history "a successful marriage".  

On 27 juli 2020 at 10:49 PM, R2D said:

Reminder that Lord Varys thinks couples like Edmure and Roslin (late 20s and 16) and Roose and Walda (40s and 15) are successful. He also likes many incest couples.

But he'll say Jon and Ygritte is a horrible couple.

Some of us here aren't native english.

[R2D]

9 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I get what you mean, Edmure and Roslin was a good match and might have been very happy. But I'm still giggling over calling their horrid history "a successful marriage".  

Some of us here aren't native english.

I mean that Lord Varys will say that Jon-Ygritte is so terrible, Ygritte treated Jon as a sex toy, etc

But he supports couples like Edmure-Roslin and Walda-Roose. When you can even say that those couples have the same issues as Jon and Ygritte. Roslin cried on her wedding day and Edmure still had sex with her. Walda is 15 and Roose is waay older.

But he praises those couples while saying Jon and Ygritte is so bad. And he even likes Targ couples without acknowledging that by modern  standards incest between siblings who grew up together is abusive.

So yeah maybe I  am a bit mad that people are making out Jon and Ygritte to be the worst when there are all these other couples they don't mind.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

I get what you mean, Edmure and Roslin was a good match and might have been very happy. But I'm still giggling over calling their horrid history "a successful marriage".  

Oh, their are honestly both better than Robert-Cerse, Jon-Lysa, and Stannis-Selyse. They do like each other and enjoy each other's company, they are not disgusted by each other nor do they try to kill each other - Jon-Ygritte are in the latter category, too.

4 hours ago, R2D said:

I mean that Lord Varys will say that Jon-Ygritte is so terrible, Ygritte treated Jon as a sex toy, etc

But he supports couples like Edmure-Roslin and Walda-Roose. When you can even say that those couples have the same issues as Jon and Ygritte. Roslin cried on her wedding day and Edmure still had sex with her. Walda is 15 and Roose is waay older.

But he praises those couples while saying Jon and Ygritte is so bad. And he even likes Targ couples without acknowledging that by modern  standards incest between siblings who grew up together is abusive.

So yeah maybe I  am a bit mad that people are making out Jon and Ygritte to be the worst when there are all these other couples they don't mind.

Man, I'm not obliged to give a list of couples I like and don't like when discussing a given topic. It makes no sense to deflect to other couples in a thread discussing the question whether Ygritte is a rapist or not. If you don't like that topic, you are free to ignore it.

Roslin likes Edmure, she wept because she knew what would happen to Edmure's family and people. I don't give a damn about the age gap between Walda and Roose as long as she enjoys her marriage ... which she does.

Ygritte forced Jon into sex even by Westerosi standards, this has nothing to do with modern context. We don't have to call it rape to know that Jon had to choose between Ygritte's cunny and torture and/or death. That is made very explicit.

Arranged incestuous marriages are not more abusive than other arranged marriages. And they are even less abusive when siblings who actually like or even love each other are married to each other - like, you know, Aegon-Rhaena, Jaehaerys-Alysanne, Aemon-Jocelyn, Baelon-Alyssa, Jaehaerys-Shaera, etc.

Aegon IV abusing his wife isn't worse than, say, Robert abusing Cersei just because his wife also happens to be his sister.

[R2D]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Man, I'm not obliged to give a list of couples I like and don't like when discussing a given topic. It makes no sense to deflect to other couples in a thread discussing the question whether Ygritte is a rapist or not. If you don't like that topic, you are free to ignore it.

Roslin likes Edmure, she wept because she knew what would happen to Edmure's family and people. I don't give a damn about the age gap between Walda and Roose as long as she enjoys her marriage ... which she does.

Ygritte forced Jon into sex even by Westerosi standards, this has nothing to do with modern context. We don't have to call it rape to know that Jon had to choose between Ygritte's cunny and torture and/or death. That is made very explicit.

Arranged incestuous marriages are not more abusive than other arranged marriages. And they are even less abusive when siblings who actually like or even love each other are married to each other - like, you know, Aegon-Rhaena, Jaehaerys-Alysanne, Aemon-Jocelyn, Baelon-Alyssa, Jaehaerys-Shaera, etc.

Aegon IV abusing his wife isn't worse than, say, Robert abusing Cersei just because his wife also happens to be his sister.

Didn't you say Rhaegar + Lyanna was abusive cause of the age gap? Either condemn all or condemn none!

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, R2D said:

Didn't you say Rhaegar + Lyanna was abusive cause of the age gap? Either condemn all or condemn none!

I condemn what I want.

Rhaegar and Lya are problematic because Rhaegar is already a married man with children of his own who seems to have used violence and/or intimidation to get to Lyanna. He didn't ask her father or brothers for her hand, he took it, possibly with force.

But I never compared that to Jon-Ygritte. It is problematic as a scenario of 'true love' but clearly not necessarily the same kind of rape scenario as Jon-Ygritte.

Renly-Loras are similarly problematic as I pointed out. There were have an age gap combined with a master-squire relationship. It is about as appropriate that Renly fucks Loras as it would be if Dunk would eventually fucked Egg.

[R2D]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I condemn what I want.

Rhaegar and Lya are problematic because Rhaegar is already a married man with children of his own who seems to have used violence and/or intimidation to get to Lyanna. He didn't ask her father or brothers for her hand, he took it, possibly with force.

But I never compared that to Jon-Ygritte. It is problematic as a scenario of 'true love' but clearly not necessarily the same kind of rape scenario as Jon-Ygritte.

Renly-Loras are similarly problematic as I pointed out. There were have an age gap combined with a master-squire relationship. It is about as appropriate that Renly fucks Loras as it would be if Dunk would eventually fucked Egg.

So what? If you're talking about power imbalance men literally have the power to beat and rape and order their wives around. Which makes Fat Walda and Roose and Edmure and Roslin abusive by your standards. 

You're literally making stuff up about Rhaegar and Lyanna. We know nothing about them.

Incest relationships should also be bad because having a relationship with someone who you grew up with him and see as a sibling isn't ok.

Now Renly and Loras isn't as bad because it only has a 4 year difference and master-squire is basically like lord-servant (see Robb-Olyvar and Tyrion-Pod) and we can just make up when and how they started their relationship.

[Orm]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon IV abusing his wife isn't worse than, say, Robert abusing Cersei just because his wife also happens to be his sister.

Except Aegon IV abusing his wife/sister is in fact actually much worse than Robert abusing Cersei (never mind the fact that Cersei abused him more and killed Robert).......

 Cersei and Robert hate eachother..... Yet they sexually didn't abuse eachother in their later marriage.....

Where as Aegon IV abused/bred his sister till the day she died in child-birth out of Jealousy and pettiness....... The fact that they were siblings, even makes it worse than it already is......

[Orm]

10 minutes ago, R2D said:

You're literally making stuff up about Rhaegar and Lyanna. We know nothing about them.

We do know Rhaegar was married with two kids and Lyanna was bethrothed to his 2nd cousin........

[R2D]

1 minute ago, Orm said:

We do know Rhaegar was married with two kids and Lyanna was bethrothed to his 2nd cousin........

I mean the part about using force/intimidation on Lyanna.

[Orm]

2 minutes ago, R2D said:

I mean the part about using force/intimidation on Lyanna.

Until the author clears that they eloped or Rhaegar forced Lyanna, we cannot say....... 

But I am damn sure Lyanna as she is described...... Wouldn't play house with Rhaegar when she learns that her father and brother were murdered heniously partly due to her.........

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte forced Jon into sex even by Westerosi standards, this has nothing to do with modern context. We don't have to call it rape to know that Jon had to choose between Ygritte's cunny and torture and/or death. That is made very explicit.

Ygritte is a wildling.  And for Wildlings either the crime of rape does not exist, or it is far different than our concept of rape or even the concept of rape in South Westeros (everywhere south of the Wall).  Basically Ygritte captured her choice of mate.  Perfectly acceptable among her people and customs.  

[R2D]

Just now, Orm said:

Until the author clears that they eloped or Rhaegar forced Lyanna, we cannot say....... 

But I am damn sure Lyanna as she is described...... Wouldn't play house with Rhaegar when she learns that her father and brother were murdered heniously partly due to her.........

Maybe she was too pregnant and couldn't travel far.

[Orm]

1 minute ago, R2D said:

Maybe she was too pregnant and couldn't travel far.

 Then wouldn't their relationship be abusive from then on?...........

[R2D]

3 minutes ago, Orm said:

 Then wouldn't their relationship be abusive from then on?...........

Why? 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, R2D said:

So what? If you're talking about power imbalance men literally have the power to beat and rape and order their wives around. Which makes Fat Walda and Roose abusive by your standards.

Of course every marriage in Westeros is wrong if you consider the power of the husband. That's why I say that structurally every arranged marriage in Westeros where the spouses do not actually like each other prior to the marriage is inherently abusive, even something like Cat and Ned (where the spouses didn't even know each other prior to their wedding, but, of course, also things like Jon-Lysa and especially Stannis-Selyse and Robert-Cersei).

The proper way how good marriages are arranged can be seen in FaB with Queen Alysanne - she pairs family members who really love each other (Aemon-Jocelyn and Baelon-Alyssa) and cancels matches involving siblings who loathe each other (Vaegon-Daella). She does the same thing when she arranges matches outside the family as is evidence with her search for a husband for Daella. Most of her other match-making involved inviting ladies to court where they could meet and get to know highborn nobles before talks about a marriage contract starts.

This is how nobility does it to this day - you don't arrange marriages between people who don't know each other if you are smart, you have them meet at balls and feasts, look where sympathies and romances develop, and then you arrange a match. It is still a paternalistic way to do it, of course, but much better than the stuff we see with Cat-Ned, Robert-Cersei or the planned Joff-Sansa match.

1 minute ago, R2D said:

Incest relationships are bad because having a relationship with someone who you grew up with him and see as a sibling isn't ok.

That is a personal preference on your part, not some sort of metaphysical truth. If the spouses love or like each other, then such a marriage isn't worse than an arranged marriage between people who aren't related in a close degree.

1 minute ago, R2D said:

Now Renly and Loras isn't as bad because it only has a 4 year difference and master-squire is basically like lord-servant (see Robb-Olyvar and Tyrion-Pod) and we can just make up when and how they started their relationship.

Last time I looked Dunk as Egg's knightly master had the right and perhaps even the duty to beat him if he was disobedient, insolent, or made mistakes, etc. That we don't see him beating the lad doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Remember how Aegon III was mistreated and abused by his master-of-arms - and he was the king and his person was inviolable. All that means that it is perfectly normal to beat and otherwise discipline even royal princes during their squire days.

That is just an unhealthy power dynamic for any romantic relationship which may or may not grow out of it. Without further information we don't know whether Loras fell in love with Renly because he was such a nice and good-looking guy or whether Renly groomed the impressionable, inexperienced boy the Tyrells sent him as squire to eventually become his lover. Both is possible - and Renly showing pornography to Loras doesn't reflect all that well on Renly, all things considered.

10 minutes ago, Orm said:

Except Aegon IV abusing his wife/sister is in fact actually much worse than Robert abusing Cersei (never mind the fact that Cersei abused him more and killed Robert).......

 Cersei and Robert hate eachother..... Yet they sexually didn't abuse eachother in their later marriage.....

Where as Aegon IV abused/bred his sister till the day she died in child-birth out of Jealousy and pettiness....... The fact that they were siblings, even makes it worse than it already is......

I know that. I just used that as an example that Aegon IV would have been a shithead to his wife regardless whether they are brother or sister. You can say it is worse because they were also siblings - and I'd agree there, just I think Jaime eventually killing Cersei is going to be worse because they are twins and lovers and not just lovers - but I'd not give Aegon some slack if Naerys hadn't been his sister.

Robert raped Cersei every time they had sex aside from that first time. She never wanted to sleep with him and made that perfectly clear. She never initiated sexual relations and only pleasured him the way she did so she would not have vaginal intercourse with him. That is rape, plain and simple.

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ygritte is a wildling.  And for Wildlings either the crime of rape does not exist, or it is far different than our concept of rape or even the concept of rape in South Westeros (everywhere south of the Wall).  Basically Ygritte captured her choice of mate.  Perfectly acceptable among her people and customs.  

Can you point me where it is said that something like 'husband-stealing' is a thing among wildlings? I don't think it is. Men can steal wives, but women cannot steal husbands as far as I know.

Ygritte clearly wants Jon Snow, and there are weirdo folk around here who imagine that Jon killing Orell and letting her go means he 'stole her' in Ygritte's own mind (which I'd just read as weird fantasies in the minds of certain readers), but she never invokes the idea that Jon is her 'stolen mate/husband' - she falsely claims that she and Jon are fucking to protect him, and then makes it very clear to him that they better make her lie a reality. The underlying threat there is quite clear - either you do as I please or you pay the ultimate price.

And as I think I pointed out in this very thread - we don't even know how honest Ygritte was to Jon. We know how she deceived him about the Horn of Joramun. She is capable of lying. It is entirely possible that she and Mance played a mummer's farce there to force Jon to break his vows some more so he couldn't possible return to the Watch.

We can be pretty sure that Mance realized what was going on there or suspected it - making Jon a wildling lover went a long way to prevent him from ever going back even if he was a secret agent. Because he would no longer be welcome with them.

[Orm]

21 minutes ago, R2D said:

Why? 

You tell me??

I don't know maybe the fact that I eloped with this guy........ This guy's dad murders my daddy and brother...... Now I am preggers with this guy's baby and he is going to make  war with my remaining brothers and family accepted Bf........

To put it mildly I would be 'upset' with my relationship with this guy........

[R2D]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course every marriage in Westeros is wrong if you consider the power of the husband. That's why I say that structurally every arranged marriage in Westeros where the spouses do not actually like each other prior to the marriage is inherently abusive, even something like Cat and Ned (where the spouses didn't even know each other prior to their wedding, but, of course, also things like Jon-Lysa and especially Stannis-Selyse and Robert-Cersei).

Ok good. You acknowledge it's also bad.

Even if they like each other that doesn't change the power dynamic.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a personal preference on your part, not some sort of metaphysical truth. If the spouses love or like each other, then such a marriage isn't worse than an arranged marriage between people who aren't related in a close degree.

Wrong. Ever heard of incestual grooming? Even if your sibling is just 2 years older you won't know if you were subconsciously influenced.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Last time I looked Dunk as Egg's knightly master had the right and perhaps even the duty to beat him if he was disobedient, insolent, or made mistakes, etc. That we don't see him beating the lad doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Remember how Aegon III was mistreated and abused by his master-of-arms - and he was the king and his person was inviolable. All that means that it is perfectly normal to beat and otherwise discipline even royal princes during their squire days.

That is just an unhealthy power dynamic for any romantic relationship which may or may not grow out of it. Without further information we don't know whether Loras fell in love with Renly because he was such a nice and good-looking guy or whether Renly groomed the impressionable, inexperienced boy the Tyrells sent him as squire to eventually become his lover. Both is possible - and Renly showing pornography to Loras doesn't reflect all that well on Renly, all things considered.

Maybe Jaeherys groomed Alysanne and Baelon groomed Alyssa? Renly thought books were for maesters and him owning those sort of books is just a reflection of that.

But ok, I don't regard any of these relationships are abusive. It is just how Westeros operates.

[Orm]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert raped Cersei every time they had sex aside from that first time. She never wanted to sleep with him and made that perfectly clear. She never initiated sexual relations and only pleasured him the way she did so she would not have vaginal intercourse with him. That is rape, plain and simple.

Yeah..... But concepts such as Marital rape didn't exist in westeros....... Still Rob was an asshole sometimes.... But the murderous Pyschopath that Cersei was really doesn't let me garner any sympathy towards her.......... Especially the case of paternal fraud and emotional abuse on her husband.......

And in my opinion Rob could've married almost anyone and at worst might have an average relationship...... But I just can't imagine Cersei in a healthy relationship with anyone........ 

[R2D]

15 minutes ago, Orm said:

Yeah..... But concepts such as Marital rape didn't exist in westeros....... Still Rob was an asshole sometimes.... But the murderous Pyschopath that Cersei was really doesn't let me garner any sympathy towards her.......... Especially the case of paternal fraud and emotional abuse on her husband.......

And in my opinion Rob could've married almost anyone and at worst might have an average relationship...... But I just can't imagine Cersei in a healthy relationship with anyone........ 

It's still seen as wrong to hurt your wife in bed (look at the reactions to Ramsay - fArya).

 

[R2D]

35 minutes ago, Orm said:

You tell me??

I don't know maybe the fact that I eloped with this guy........ This guy's dad murders my daddy and brother...... Now I am preggers with this guy's baby and he is going to make  war with my remaining brothers and family accepted Bf........

To put it mildly I would be 'upset' with my relationship with this guy........

Well, true...