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Alyn Oakenfist

Is Ygritte a rapist?

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In fairness to Ygritte, she's a person of her times and place (as we all are).  Her society has dubious notions about what constitutes consent to sex, and what constitutes legitimate violence.

I certainly don't think she's a rapist by the standards of her time and place. By modern standards, I'd view her more as a harasser than a rapist.

And, bear in mind the story is written by a man, and most men do fantasise about being pursued by a woman who won't take no for an answer.

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17 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah you're probably right. Come to think about it all the discussions on this website containing morally grey sexual stuff seem to degenerate quite quickly.

I wonder, who comes up with such topics? lol

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14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd say there are quite a few such - Asha and Qarl in ADwD is a very sex-positive scene of a couple living their sexual fantasies,

Well may be. But it's rape reenactment, which brings other problems.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned and Cat in AGoT.

Unfortunately we only see the aftermath because it could have been something nice.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Arianne and Arys in AFfC are very consensual.

Arys is full of guilt because he's in love with Arianne.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 Daario and Dany in ADwD.

From the sexual PoV is probably the most healthy one however, one cannot forget that Dany is 16yo and sentences like "That night Daario had her every way a man can have a woman, and she gave herself to him willingly" are still problematic.

I don't want to sound old-fashioned. I know what teens do at that age and I know what I did at that age. Still, do we need to read that?

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Roose and Walda (although we never see them).

as you say

 

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16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes and consent is primarily a new concept, that didn't really exist in the Middle Ages. Rape was a crime against the husband or father not the woman herself and rape of men was probably not acknowledged at all, but the men, who "let that happen" were guilty of sin themselves. Would be my guess at least since I'm not an expert, when it comes to the Middle Ages. 

But GRRM is a contemporary author. We are not reading Don Quixote  or some ancient story. Why did our author choose to give us so many problematic scenes when sex is concerned? A possibility is just to show that this is an abusive world, where is difficult to have healthy friendships, relationships, sex, power structures, etc. We see for example, very few friendships, so it's not unexpected that also healthy relationships are rare.

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1 minute ago, rotting sea cow said:

But GRRM is a contemporary author. We are not reading Don Quixote  or some ancient story. Why did our author choose to give us so many problematic scenes when sex is concerned? A possibility is just to show that this is an abusive world, where is difficult to have healthy friendships, relationships, sex, power structures, etc. We see for example, very few friendships, so it's not unexpected that also healthy relationships are rare.

agreed. would also love to see some great, really tight friendships. In my head- canon Dany, Sansa and Arya all become the best of friends- it's ridiculous, but still fun to think about lol- they are all around the same age after all. And for most girls close female friendships are important :P

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8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

agreed. would also love to see some great, really tight friendships. In my head- canon Dany, Sansa and Arya all become the best of friends- it's ridiculous, but still fun to think about lol- they are all around the same age after all. And for most girls close female friendships are important :P

That's an interesting point.  Most of the main protagonists are actually pretty lonely people.

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Just now, SeanF said:

That's an interesting point.  Most of the main protagonists are actually pretty lonely people.

agreed. the closest we got was Arya and hot pie and gendry and Sam and Jon (which IMO is not an equal relationship)

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50 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

From the sexual PoV is probably the most healthy one however, one cannot forget that Dany is 16yo and sentences like "That night Daario had her every way a man can have a woman, and she gave herself to him willingly" are still problematic.

Dany was sold into marriage at 13 to a guy, who didn't treat her like a person in the beginning and her first sexual experiences were so painful and horrible, that she considered suicide over it. 

Therefore and her abusive upbringing I'm not sure she has a completely healthy relationship to sex or romantic relationships in general. I always felt like part of her attraction to Daario was, that she knew he was dangerous and not a good person. I feel like, because she grew up so powerless and helpless as a young woman she is now attracted to powerful people, potentially violent people.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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Nah just a hands on teacher. Like those people who say well the best way you will learn is to get in there and do it

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55 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Dany was sold into marriage at 13 to a guy, who didn't treat her like a person in the beginning and her first sexual experiences were so painful and horrible, that she considered suicide over it. 

Therefore and her abusive upbringing I'm not sure she has a completely healthy relationship to sex or romantic relationships in general. I always felt like part of her attraction to Daario was, that she knew he was dangerous and not a good person. I feel like, because she grew up so powerless and helpless as a young woman she is now attracted to powerful people, potentially violent people.

This is what I mean. Every time we look at some sexual relationship we can always come up with a "but..." which is kind of weird.

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3 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

This is what I mean. Every time we look at some sexual relationship we can always come up with a "but..." which is kind of weird.

guess all the characters are just kinda messed up :unsure: no one happy and healthy. Maybe in the future? there must be something sweet to bittersweet.

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3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

But GRRM is a contemporary author. We are not reading Don Quixote  or some ancient story. Why did our author choose to give us so many problematic scenes when sex is concerned? A possibility is just to show that this is an abusive world, where is difficult to have healthy friendships, relationships, sex, power structures, etc. We see for example, very few friendships, so it's not unexpected that also healthy relationships are rare.

I think we would probably see more healthy relationships among the smallfolk. But almost all the POVs are nobles or people of high rank. But the little people are not subjected to the institutionalized rape culture of arranged marriages. And while even the smallfolk live in a patriarchy, it would be less important to them and the chances of them marrying for love is a lot higher. I guess the chances among nobility would slightly increase in Dorne but only because women have it a tiny bit better there than average Westeros. But you can't have Westeros' system of arranged marriages and patriarchy, have most of your POVs be of noble rank and expect there to be a lot of positive or unproblematic sexual encounters in the books.

IMO even regular relationships or friendships would be more prevalent among smallfolk because they exist outside of the power structure that the nobility deals with.

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8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Given how much he tells to himself he doesn't want it it's pretty clear how much consent he gives. Now you might argue that he is more deluding himself, but that doesn't really matter in the whole consent thing.

Yeah, I still haven't reread the chapter/s so I can't really remember how much he tells himself he doesn't want it. I remember him thinking he doesn't want to break his vows, but that's not the same thing. 

I don't think he is deluding himself though, either way. If he says he doesn't want it, repeatedly, that's direct evidence that he was coerced into it. I am going to try to read those sections again today or tomorrow & I'll get back with ya with a firmer opinion. 

 

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6 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well may be. But it's rape reenactment, which brings other problems.

I'd differentiate there. Consensual roleplaying and consensual BDSM are fine. A pathological sadist getting off if he hurts people against their will basically has nothing in common with a loving couple living their sexual fantasies in a consensual and loving manner.

In that sense I really like it that there are characters like Asha and Qarl who are so confident in their sexuality that they can play such game and enjoy them.

6 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

From the sexual PoV is probably the most healthy one however, one cannot forget that Dany is 16yo and sentences like "That night Daario had her every way a man can have a woman, and she gave herself to him willingly" are still problematic.

There are issues with the age, of course, but Daenerys is still the queen and has all the power in her relationship with Daario. With him she has the kind of sex she wants and she wants whatever sex she wants - sexual preferences aren't things we can choose. And I think she mature beyond her years in romantic things - she understands that Daario is a problem for her as queen and ruler which is why she eventually pushes him away. Not to mention that she takes a piece of shit like Hizdahr as her consort for reasons of state.

As for Sam-Gilly, I think this is more comparable to a parent gently pushing a child to find the courage to do something they really want to do. Sam does love Gilly and he does want to have sex with her, but he is too afraid. Sure, he also has sworn the vow, and doesn't want to break it, but they are friends who love each other already and have suffered a lot of shit together.

And I never thought that sex scene was written badly or anything.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd differentiate there. Consensual roleplaying and consensual BDSM are fine. A pathological sadist getting off if he hurts people against their will basically has nothing in common with a loving couple living their sexual fantasies in a consensual and loving manner.

In that sense I really like it that there are characters like Asha and Qarl who are so confident in their sexuality that they can play such game and enjoy them.

There are issues with the age, of course, but Daenerys is still the queen and has all the power in her relationship with Daario. With him she has the kind of sex she wants and she wants whatever sex she wants - sexual preferences aren't things we can choose. And I think she mature beyond her years in romantic things - she understands that Daario is a problem for her as queen and ruler which is why she eventually pushes him away. Not to mention that she takes a piece of shit like Hizdahr as her consort for reasons of state.

As for Sam-Gilly, I think this is more comparable to a parent gently pushing a child to find the courage to do something they really want to do. Sam does love Gilly and he does want to have sex with her, but he is too afraid. Sure, he also has sworn the vow, and doesn't want to break it, but they are friends who love each other already and have suffered a lot of shit together.

And I never thought that sex scene was written badly or anything.

The Sam/Gilly scene is one that I find rather amusing, and true to life.

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On 2/19/2020 at 1:23 PM, rotting sea cow said:

Hardly any sex scene in the books is unproblematic or unmistakably consensual. It's another problem in the books.

You have to admit that Cersei and Taena's relationship was tastefully handled... #Myrishswamp

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You have to admit that Cersei and Taena's relationship was tastefully handled... #Myrishswamp

I think it's supposed to be very uncomfortable to read, especially given how it's supposed to be Cersei's bitterness bottling up and finally spilling over. It's her turning herself from the victim of Robert's rapes to becoming basically Robert, or at least trying to.

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2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think it's supposed to be very uncomfortable to read, especially given how it's supposed to be Cersei's bitterness bottling up and finally spilling over. It's her turning herself from the victim of Robert's rapes to becoming basically Robert, or at least trying to.

Yeah that's definitely not a healthy sexual experience. I thought the FFR was joking ...

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4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think it's supposed to be very uncomfortable to read, especially given how it's supposed to be Cersei's bitterness bottling up and finally spilling over. It's her turning herself from the victim of Robert's rapes to becoming basically Robert, or at least trying to.

I would go one step further; turning  herself into something she always wanted to be; a man. 
 

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I always viewed it as an initiation. I mean Jon was a spy. Ygritte/Mance just made his inevitable "betrayal" more difficult.

Serious counter question: Do people really think Ygritte would've told Mance if Jon and her didn't have sex?

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