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How did certain families get Valyrian steel?


Lucia Targaryen

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Long ago I’ve “theorized” or whatever that Targaryens are the source of most of the Valyrian swords in Westeros; they sold off all their holdings and riches and came to Westeros with just 3 ships. How did they carry all that wealth to Ds? Simple, turn it into the most valuable thing with the lowest weight and volume and turn it into gold when needed. Carrying a few hundred VS swords are much easier than carrying gold, or even it’s equivelant in gems. Once in Westeros they can sell it and perhaps even make a profit being the sole supplier.

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We haven't had a really good sword discussion in a long time.  Through a great deal of research I am convinced that all the VS swords are what we are told they are.  Longclaw is NOT Blackfyre.   We have descriptions and they do not match up.  Ice, Lady Forlorn, Blackfyre and Orphan-Maker are all specifically described as dark blades.   Longclaw is not.   As I recall, Lady Forlorn, the Corbray sword, came with a sell sword from Essos when the Andals were establishing themselves in the Vale.  That's the original, non-VS Lady Forlorn.  I believe the VS version was a simple commission from House Corbray to Valyria.  Same with Ice and the Starks.  Blackfyre went to Essos with the Blackfyres.   I believe it is with Young Griff/Aegon waiting to be revealed.  Dark Sister and Blackfyre came from Valyria with the Targs.  Bloodraven took Dark Sister to the Wall with him and it's likely still in the vicinity.   Dark Sister doesn't match Longclaw's description, either.  We know Brightroar was bought (though not likely directly from Valyria--think middle man on this deal) and then lost when Tommen went in search of adventure or simple death in ruined Valyria.  The Lannisters didn't hang on to it for longer than a century even.  We have little intel on the origins of Heartsbane, but there have been suspicious concentrations of VS swords in the Reach and House Tarly is directly descended from one of Garth Greenhand's children.  That bloodline makes House Tarly auspicious.  The catch here is that they were known for their archery skills, but old nasty Randyll actually uses the great sword in the commission of his duties.  Sort of the opposite of Ned, though Ned did use Ice for the occasional beheading.   IIRC there are 15 named VS swords in total--that's just named, not all swords.  Given the Targ swords were named, it's possible there are many named swords, but these particular 15 are of interest.   We know that Ice was reforged into Oathkeeper and Widows Wail.   There is evidence that House Royce sword, Lamentation, was destroyed in the dragon pit.   It's not an overt statement from the text, but heavily implied.  The Royce bunch are an ancient First Men house and their acquisition of VS could be related to something surrounding their weird armor or just weird 1st men roots, like the Starks and Mormonts.  Red Rain was taken from a knight by an Ironborn Drumm.   The smart one, you remember!  The name alone leads many to believe this was House Reyne's sword, which would piss the Lannisters off to no end.   Nightfall was acquired by a very young Dalton Greyjoy when he took it from a dead pirate.  Score of all scores, really.  Nightfall sports a moonstone in the pommel which causes many readers to speculate on the origins of Nightfall.   Though some arguments are particularly persuasive or interesting, there is no real evidence for its origin.  It's interesting that the Ironborn have 2 VS swords though they are unlikely to hang on to them in TWOW.   I got nothing for Longclaw other than speculation.  Orphan-Maker may still be with House Peake as it was taken after the Caltrops from House Roxton.  Upon seeing Oathkeeper for the 1st time, Tyrion muses over 3 impoverished houses Tywin attempted to buy VS swords from.   I don't think the Ironborn or Mormonts are impoverished, but I'm willing to bet Lyn Corbray got an exploratory call about Lady Forlorn.   The only other houses I specifically recall being stated as impoverished are Westerling and Payne, curiously enough, though there has been no word at all about either actually owning a named VS sword.   After reading Blood & Fire, I think Truth is actually in the Vale as Modero needed funds to buy an army in Braavos and Gull Town was his last known place before leaving Westeros.   Someone had to pay for Truth.   Insofar as Vigilance is concerned, we have virtually no information other than the Hightowers had it.  So yah, lots of prizes of battle, lots of purchases and some dumb luck finding of named Valyrian Swords.   I'm watching bloodlines as to why rather than how certain families ended up with these weapons.   

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On 2/20/2020 at 12:12 PM, Megorova said:

It's a bit suspicious that out of all Valyrian Steel weapons ever made, there's only two bastard-swords, other swords are either two-handed greatswords or average swords, not a sword and a half like Blackfyre or Longclaw.

So it's not totally impossible that Longclaw could be Blackfyre, because Jeor Mormont could have lied about that sword's history. For example, if Jeor participated in the War of Ninepenny Kings (in 260), it's a possibility that he just picked up from the battlefield Maelys' sword, when Maelys Blackfyre was killed by Barristan. Or maybe when Bittersteel was sent to The Wall, and when he escaped on the way there, the sword was left behind, and was sent to The Wall (in 219). Jeor said that before him Longclaw was weilded by his father, and prior that by his grandfather (Jeor was born in 230). If it's a tradition for senior Mormonts to join Night's Watch when they became old, and both Jeor's father and grandfather served at The Wall sometime after 219, then it's a possibility that Longclaw is Blackfyre, and the part about Jeor's father and grandfather being the sword's previous owners is true, while the part about that sword belonging to Mormont family for 500 years is a lie. Maybe Jeor himself doesn't know that what he knew about his "ancestral" sword's history was a lie. 

2 custom bastard swords is no more suspicious than the odd custom configurations of Dark Sister and or Widows Wail.   Or 3 (maybe 4) great swords.  

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19 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It makes no sense that he was permitted to keep the ancestral Targaryen sword Dark Sister when he was exiled to the Wall for murdering Aenys Blackfyre on a promise of safe passage.

Why not?  Bloodraven was a legitimized Targaryen son of Aegon 4.  The Targaryen swords are bestowed to reward fighting prowess.  Bloodraven was a badass.  If Aegon 4 actually carried Blackfyre around he certainly had no reason other than being top Targ because he was not a fighter.  Aegon didn't seem interested in relics and may have shared Bloodraven's interest in prophecy or magic in general.  These swords are in story for a reason and that reason is magical.  Who better to wield a magical sword than a magical Blackwood/Targaryen greenseer? 

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On 2/23/2020 at 4:10 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I think it does make sense actually. Aegon V understood why BR did what he did, and yet he couldn’t give the impression that the crown condoned BR’s actions. So he condemned BR to death, then commuted the sentence to life on the NW, while letting BR keep the sword. 

TWoIaF, Aegon V

“THE FIRST ACT of Aegon’s reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King’s Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.
Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night’s Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. The king’s brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them.”

 

What are the optics of letting a condemned man keep that ancestral sword?

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Why not?  Bloodraven was a legitimized Targaryen son of Aegon 4.  The Targaryen swords are bestowed to reward fighting prowess.  Bloodraven was a badass.  If Aegon 4 actually carried Blackfyre around he certainly had no reason other than being top Targ because he was not a fighter.  Aegon didn't seem interested in relics and may have shared Bloodraven's interest in prophecy or magic in general.  These swords are in story for a reason and that reason is magical.  Who better to wield a magical sword than a magical Blackwood/Targaryen greenseer? 

Men of the Night's Watch are supposed to be severed from their families, and only to belong to the Watch. Bloodraven was not to father any children who could inherit the sword from him. Furthermore, Aegon IV actually was a fighter in his youth, and participated in Daeron's conquest of Dorne. He gave Blackfyre to Daemon partly in recognition of his prowess, but also partly to spite his legitimate son.

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7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What are the optics of letting a condemned man keep that ancestral sword?

Men of the Night's Watch are supposed to be severed from their families, and only to belong to the Watch. Bloodraven was not to father any children who could inherit the sword from him. Furthermore, Aegon IV actually was a fighter in his youth, and participated in Daeron's conquest of Dorne. He gave Blackfyre to Daemon partly in recognition of his prowess, but also partly to spite his legitimate son.

I cannot fault your reasoning.  This is a fantasy story which often engages my magical thinking.  Men of the NW have attempted to allow their children to inherit the title of LC, cavorted openly with chicks called Night's Queen, sacrificed, maintained political alliances and all manner of missing the mark they were supposed to hit.  The NW is I believe, a magical organization with a magical duty that requires magical swords to be or get handy to fight the Others.  The NW has forgotten its mission.  It's possible that in the research of prophecy that Aegon 5 and Bloodraven understood the necessity of taking a magical sword to the place it was destined to be.  Isn't it interesting that BR took Dark Sister, the smallest sword known at the time to the Wall.  He tells Bran he watched for him before he was born and before his father was born.  We have no idea if BR knew his own destiny much less that of Bran's when he was Hand of the King.  BR may have been able to see the future in his dreams from a very young age for all we know.  Personally, I think Aegon & BR were in cahoots for some higher conspiracy to save the world.  We know Aegon thought highly of BR even as a boy.      

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On 2/24/2020 at 8:31 PM, Curled Finger said:

Men of the NW have attempted to allow their children to inherit the title of LC

I don't recall that one, who was that?

Quote

Personally, I think Aegon & BR were in cahoots for some higher conspiracy to save the world.  We know Aegon thought highly of BR even as a boy.      

Egg disliked/feared BR, regarding him as a bastard bound to betrayal like Daemon and Bittersteel. Bloodraven did not get along with Maekar, which is why Kyle the Cat expected a civil war after Aerys died.

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On 2/24/2020 at 7:33 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

What are the optics of letting a condemned man keep that ancestral sword?

Men of the Night's Watch are supposed to be severed from their families, and only to belong to the Watch. Bloodraven was not to father any children who could inherit the sword from him. Furthermore, Aegon IV actually was a fighter in his youth, and participated in Daeron's conquest of Dorne. He gave Blackfyre to Daemon partly in recognition of his prowess, but also partly to spite his legitimate son.

Jeor brought his though.

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On 2/23/2020 at 5:44 PM, Curled Finger said:

Ice, Lady Forlorn, Blackfyre and Orphan-Maker are all specifically described as dark blades.   Longclaw is not.

Jon does think of Longclaw as dark when he first receives it.

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When Jon turned it sideways, he could see the ripples in the dark steel where the metal had been folded back on itself again and again. "This is Valyrian steel, my lord," he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel. (AGOT Jon VIII)

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Jon unsheathed Longclaw and showed it to them, turning it this way and that so they could admire it. The bastard blade glittered in the pale sunlight, dark and deadly. "Valyrian steel," he declared solemnly, trying to sound as pleased and proud as he ought to have felt. (AGOT Jon VIII)

 

17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't recall that one, who was that?

Benjen mentioned Runcel Hightower to Jon, at least.

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The first time he had seen Castle Black with his own eyes, Jon had wondered why anyone would be so foolish as to build a castle without walls. How could it be defended?

"It can't," his uncle told him. "That is the point. The Night's Watch is pledged to take no part in the quarrels of the realm. Yet over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitions. Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible. The Night's Watch had nine hundred and ninety-six Lords Commander before Jeor Mormont, most of them men of courage and honor . . . but we have had cowards and fools as well, our tyrants and our madmen. We survive because the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms know that we pose no threat to them, no matter who should lead us. Our only foes are to the north, and to the north we have the Wall." (ASOS Jon VII)

 

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22 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't recall that one, who was that?

Egg disliked/feared BR, regarding him as a bastard bound to betrayal like Daemon and Bittersteel. Bloodraven did not get along with Maekar, which is why Kyle the Cat expected a civil war after Aerys died.

Looks like our friend, @Nittanian provided the text quote regarding Runcel Hightower trying to leave his post as LC of the NW to his bastard.  That comedy gagster.  The NW is like any other long standing organization going through natural changes for better and worse accroding to the times and leadership.   There is corruption and there is deep honesty, not necessarily in equal measure. 

I didn't get that Egg disliked or feared BR in any way.   I always ready the exchanges as Dunk being afraid of Bloodraven whereas Egg trusts and even admires Bloodraven.   Egg gave Dunk examples of things BR said or did to illustrate BR's fairness.  I'll give you this is largely interpretive, but I honestly never read Egg as having anything but respect for his older cousin.   

A small example from The Mystery Knight.  Egg is explaining to Dunk what to expect from Bloodraven's judgement of the traitors at Whitewalls. 

"Some will be pardoned, so long as they tell the truth of what they know and give up a son or daughter to vouchsafe their future loyalty. It will go harder for those who took pardons after the Redgrass Field. They'll be imprisoned or attainted. The worst will lose their heads." Bloodraven had made a start on that already, Dunk saw when they came up on his pavilion. 

Egg understood that Bloodraven was fair and accepted his judgement as just.  Of course, that is only my interpretation of the text.  I would be very interested to read the text you base your own opinions on as Egg disliking Bloodraven or regarding him as a bastard bound to betrayal is a whole new idea for me.   

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4 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Jon does think of Longclaw as dark when he first receives it.

 

Benjen mentioned Runcel Hightower to Jon, at least.

 

VS is described as dark, can't argue that.   It appears to resemble cast iron more than silver but it it occasionally shines (just my own interpretation).   I think the arakh even glimmers during a fight Caggo takes part in.  So I can't argue your points to Longclaw's color.   What I can do is stress that Orphan-Maker is described as a black blade and Blackfyre is said to have darkened in Aegon I's funeral pyre.  I'm not finding the descriptions of Ice and Lady Forlorn in the search but my notes mention Ice and LF being described similarly as dark grey.   Great.   I will put the quotes in for you if I can find them.  I'm bringing the colors up as more of an investigative tool than argument.   I'm thinking OM may have undergone some fire similar to Blackfyre and have a really tough time reconciling that with Lamentation's destruction in the dragon pit.   Add the odd red markings of OK & WW and the possibility that RR may even be a red blade and the colors become something of a sticking point for an old sword geek.   These are fun swords.   

Thanks a million for digging up that quote about Hightower.   

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https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ is quite useful when searching for excerpts. 

For Ice, I found:

Quote

"Ice," that sword was called. It was as wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb. The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel. (AGOT Bran I)

and

Ser Ilyn drew a two-handed greatsword from the scabbard on his back. As he lifted the blade above his head, sunlight seemed to ripple and dance down the dark metal, glinting off an edge sharper than any razor. Ice, she thought, he has Ice! Her tears streamed down her face, blinding her. (AGOT Arya V)

For Lady Forlorn, Sansa thinks:

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Candlelight rippled along the smoke-grey steel of Corbray's blade, so dark that it put Sansa in mind of Ice, her father's greatsword. (AFFC Alayne I)

and

He slid the dark sword back into its scabbard and left them, shouldering Brune aside as if he were not there. (AFFC Alayne I)

 

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On 2/27/2020 at 3:36 PM, Sigella said:

Jeor brought his though.

He wasn't condemned, he voluntarily joined so his son could become lord of Bear Island.

Thanks @Nittanian for that quote.

 

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I didn't get that Egg disliked or feared BR in any way.   I always ready the exchanges as Dunk being afraid of Bloodraven whereas Egg trusts and even admires Bloodraven.   Egg gave Dunk examples of things BR said or did to illustrate BR's fairness.  I'll give you this is largely interpretive, but I honestly never read Egg as having anything but respect for his older cousin.   

A small example from The Mystery Knight.  Egg is explaining to Dunk what to expect from Bloodraven's judgement of the traitors at Whitewalls. 

"Some will be pardoned, so long as they tell the truth of what they know and give up a son or daughter to vouchsafe their future loyalty. It will go harder for those who took pardons after the Redgrass Field. They'll be imprisoned or attainted. The worst will lose their heads." Bloodraven had made a start on that already, Dunk saw when they came up on his pavilion. 

Egg understood that Bloodraven was fair and accepted his judgement as just.  Of course, that is only my interpretation of the text.  I would be very interested to read the text you base your own opinions on as Egg disliking Bloodraven or regarding him as a bastard bound to betrayal is a whole new idea for me.   

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"I call it being wroth," Egg declared loftily. "His Grace should have made my father Hand. He's his brother , and the finest battle commander in the realm since Uncle Baelor died. Lord Bloodraven's not even a real lord, that's just some stupid courtesy . He's a sorcerer, and baseborn besides."

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"King Aegon washed Bloodraven clean of bastardy," he reminded Egg, "the same as he did the rest of them."
"The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another," the boy said stubbornly. "Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal . . . Daemon Blackfyre, Bittersteel, even Bloodraven. Lord Rivers was more cunning than the other two, he said, but in the end he would prove himself a traitor, too. The High Septon counseled my father never to put any trust in him, nor in any other bastards, great or small."
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"I saw the dragon's egg." Dunk squirrled the food away with their hard-bread and salt beef. "It was red, mostly. Does Lord Bloodraven own a dragon's egg as well?" Egg lowered his book. "Why would he? He's baseborn."

It's also implied that Bloodraven wanted Egg as his hostage::

 

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