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US Politics: Money, Money, Money Makes the World Go Round

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

That's an ad hominem and sounds a lot like fake news. I don't have any respect for the Post, but not every single thing they print is wrong. And MSNBC was kinda there as first-hand witnesses. I look forward to Sanders' denial of the claim if he didn't really do it.

You're really sounding like a Trump supporter now.

Lol now because of fake news we can't criticize any media or reporting.  And where's the ad hominem?

Not seeing this covered in MSNBC, which certainly hasn't shied from taking shots ant Sanders when possible.  

 

Edited by larrytheimp

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Holy fuck the gymnastics it takes to make Bernie complaining directly to MSNBC executives equivalent at all to Trump's insidious "fake news" campaign, Twitter campaigns against any journalist that crosses him, and constant "enemy of the people" rhetoric. I'm no fan of Bernie's behavior but this is deranged bullshit.

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8 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Bernie raised his voice?

He gestured emphatically???

I never would have imagined...

He looked like he wanted to line Chris Matthews up in front of a firing squad.  

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1 minute ago, DanteGabriel said:

Holy fuck the gymnastics it takes to make Bernie complaining directly to MSNBC executives equivalent at all to Trump's insidious "fake news" campaign, Twitter campaigns against any journalist that crosses him, and constant "enemy of the people" rhetoric. I'm no fan of Bernie's behavior but this is deranged bullshit.

Agreed wholeheartedly. This sounds like the biggest nothing story ever. Good to know Sanders' nomination is bringing the party together like I was repeatedly shouted at.

1 minute ago, larrytheimp said:

He looked like he wanted to line Chris Matthews up in front of a firing squad.  

Don't we all?

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Okay, so first Sanders wasn't electable because he only appealed to far-left crazies and toxic Bernie-bros. Then, when he makes massive inroads with nearly all demographic groups, he suddenly becomes unelectable because...he was upset at MSNBC's absolutely outrageous coverage of his campaign (brownshirts, just like Stalin, etc.)? So now that makes him just like Trump apparently? Some people around here need to get a grip.

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So what happens when Bernie loses in the general?  By a electoral college loss like HRC in '16?  What happens to his movement then?  All of the grand promises and pie in the sky change?  There will be more irrevocable damage to what he claims to want to do that the needed change will take at least another generation to get back to.  Bernie Sanders might be the leader of said movement, but he isn't the right President to see the start of enacting it.  He should be backing Warren, but instead his own hubris is going to cause things to end badly...

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5 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So what happens when Bernie loses in the general?  By a electoral college loss like HRC in '16?  What happens to his movement then?  All of the grand promises and pie in the sky change?  There will be more irrevocable damage to what he claims to want to do that the needed change will take at least another generation to get back to.  Bernie Sanders might be the leader of said movement, but he isn't the right President to see the start of enacting it.  He should be backing Warren, but instead his own hubris is going to cause things to end badly...

Yeah guess it's over I guess I'll just vote for Trump instead.  

At* evidence that Warren or anyone else is more likely to beat Trump?  

 

Edited by larrytheimp
Any*

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2 hours ago, butterbumps! said:

I’m obviously not as far along as DMC in my stages of grief.

If you want I can PM you the number to my therapist.  It's this guy:

 

I feel kinda obligated to defend Mathews a bit, met and conversed with him at least a dozen times back in the mid-00s when he frequented a bar a friend of mine worked at (and thus I frequented as well for a time).  Always an incredibly nice, accessible, even sweet guy, nothing like his media persona.  Anyway, obviously his Nazi comparison last night was incredibly stupid and insensitive, but I don't think he meant any malicious intent by it, or even was actually comparing Bernie/Bernie supporters to Nazis in any substantive way.  He pretty clearly is just currently reading a book and the fact that Bernie has so quickly and (to Mathews) surprisingly already almost wrapped up the nomination reminded him of how surprised everyone was when the blitz took over France.  Again, should've never made that comparison, but it's just one of a host of really stupid things he's said over the past twenty years, which tends to happen when you're on TV multiple hours a day.

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Just now, larrytheimp said:

Lol now because of fake news we can't criticize any media or reporting.  And where's the ad hominem?

Not seeing this covered in MSNBC, which certainly hasn't shied from taking shots ant Sanders when possible.  

 

You can credibly criticize it. You can't dismiss it just 'cause. Ad hominem was against the NY Post for the reasons I stated above. Being in the Post is grounds for being skeptical and making extra sure their sources are solid. Like I said, it was MSNBC's debate and they witnessed it first-hand.

So...if it's not covered by MSNBC it must necessarily not be true? If you think MSNBC is taking shots at Sanders just wait until you see what the Republicans reveal. The silence surrounding Bernie, even from MSNBC, is stunning. Research his past and notice not even MSNBC is covering it. But the Republicans surely will.

https://www.axios.com/centrist-democrat-bernie-trump-wins-2020-76900aca-ca3c-42a6-a7db-983d1dded0e2.html

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Just now, larrytheimp said:

Yeah guess it's over I guess I'll just vote for Trump instead.  

At evidence that Warren or anyone else is more likely to beat Trump?  

 

Theres a lot of data out there indicating that depending on what you think the election will be like. If you think itll be like 2018, for instance, where suburban women are key, then buttigieg and biden are far better. 

But the question isn't asking why vote for Sanders. It is asking what happens when he loses. A core understanding from 2016 was that women cant win, and that has affected candidates this time. If the understanding after Sanders loses is that progressives cant win , what does that mean for the future?

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3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Theres a lot of data out there indicating that depending on what you think the election will be like. If you think itll be like 2018, for instance, where suburban women are key, then buttigieg and biden are far better. 

But the question isn't asking why vote for Sanders. It is asking what happens when he loses. A core understanding from 2016 was that women cant win, and that has affected candidates this time. If the understanding after Sanders loses is that progressives cant win , what does that mean for the future?

Mass suicide duh

Eta:

Actual response- keep advocating and pursuing goals?  Same as anytime you lose an election.  Lost the primary in 2016?  Won it in 2020.  Keep on promoting leftist candidates especially in safe blue districts with moderate reps.  

Also, with people under 50 Sanders is very popular.  Difficult to believe all those people will abandon their views because they don't win right now.  

What did Al Gore's loss mean for Dems in 2000?  The end of the world?

 

Edited by larrytheimp

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14 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So what happens when Bernie loses in the general?  By a electoral college loss like HRC in '16?  What happens to his movement then?  All of the grand promises and pie in the sky change?  There will be more irrevocable damage to what he claims to want to do that the needed change will take at least another generation to get back to.  Bernie Sanders might be the leader of said movement, but he isn't the right President to see the start of enacting it.  He should be backing Warren, but instead his own hubris is going to cause things to end badly...

It's a movement for progressive legislation and progressive representatives.  It's not about Sanders alone.  Bernie himself will probably do exactly what he promised to regarding mass pressure of politicians to enact M4A and Green New Deal and getting oligarch and corporate money out of politics.  He wouldn't have the bully pulpit of being president, but this is genuinely a movement.  If you think its done if he loses, you just don't understand the times at all.

Women's Suffrage got it in 7 years via mass movement.  Civil Rights Act, mass movement.  Abolition of slavery, mass movement.  Through all those times there were "moderates" who said it couldn't be done.

There's zero percent chance the movement goes away.

 

Edited by SpaceChampion

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12 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You can credibly criticize it. You can't dismiss it just 'cause. Ad hominem was against the NY Post for the reasons I stated above. Being in the Post is grounds for being skeptical and making extra sure their sources are solid. Like I said, it was MSNBC's debate and they witnessed it first-hand.

So...if it's not covered by MSNBC it must necessarily not be true? If you think MSNBC is taking shots at Sanders just wait until you see what the Republicans reveal. The silence surrounding Bernie, even from MSNBC, is stunning. Research his past and notice not even MSNBC is covering it. But the Republicans surely will.

https://www.axios.com/centrist-democrat-bernie-trump-wins-2020-76900aca-ca3c-42a6-a7db-983d1dded0e2.html

I stated that you were going with the characterization of a self-described "grad scho for celebrity gossip" as evidence that Sanders was threatening the press.  And that's what it was, a characterization of his behavior that no one else was reporting.  My point about MSNBC was that if his behavior was so outrageous, you'd think all the offended journalists would have said something other than to Page Six.

There's no ad hominem in there.  A sensational publication used sensational language.  

On another note, I do think that even saying that to any journalist (i use that term loosely here with msnbc) is dumb for Sanders because it looks bad.  

 

 

 

Edited by larrytheimp

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1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Btw, it appears that turnout in both New Hampshire and Nevada exceeded turnout relative to the 2008 primary.

"Did Sanders peak too early?  Pundits concerned that people will be tired of enthusiasm come November"

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7 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Holy fuck the gymnastics it takes to make Bernie complaining directly to MSNBC executives equivalent at all to Trump's insidious "fake news" campaign, Twitter campaigns against any journalist that crosses him, and constant "enemy of the people" rhetoric. I'm no fan of Bernie's behavior but this is deranged bullshit.

It's not an equivalency and I never said it was. It's the same pattern of behavior which surrounds Bernie that reminds people of Trump. A lot. But some are still in denial about it or think everyone noticing this is just mass hysteria or something.

I'm mostly aggravated by Sanders' supporters making excuses and applying different standards to people they like. A lot of voters want Trump out because of his behavior more than anything. Putting up a candidate who reminds these people of Trump when Warren would have the same results as Bernie when considering what can actually pass is unexplainable.

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@DMCi read some commentary on the results last night that said the big winner wasn't Sanders, but was actually Chris Matthews bartender.

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14 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:



There's zero percent chance the movement goes away.

 

Didn't say it goes away. I said its irrevocably damaged for at least a generation because the perception that it can't be done.  

Bernie's movement isn't the problem.  Bernie himself is the problem.  

And I'll still hold my nose and vote for him.  But I'd rather see him in the background with someone better able to get things done leading the way. Like Warren.

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5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not an equivalency and I never said it was. It's the same pattern of behavior which surrounds Bernie that reminds people of Trump. A lot. But some are still in denial about it or think everyone noticing this is just mass hysteria or something.

I'm mostly aggravated by Sanders' supporters making excuses and applying different standards to people they like. A lot of voters want Trump out because of his behavior more than anything. Putting up a candidate who reminds these people of Trump when Warren would have the same results as Bernie when considering what can actually pass is unexplainable.

Where are all this people who think bernie is the next trump?(apart from you, obviously) 

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election/joe-biden-arrested-south-africa-nelson-mandela-fact-check-a9352946.html

Quote

Joe Biden is facing fresh scrutiny over claims that he was once arrested in South Africa while trying to visit Nelson Mandela in prison four deades ago.

The story has been told on the campaign trail by the former vice president several times in the past two weeks as he attempts what would be a remarkable political comeback in the Democratic primary, claiming that he was detained in 1977 while visiting the country as a US Senator from Delaware.

“This day, 30 years ago, Nelson Mandela walked out of prison and entered into discussions about apartheid,” Mr Biden said last week in South Carolina. “I had the great honor of meeting him. I had the great honor of being arrested with our UN ambassador on the streets of Soweto trying to get to see him on Robbens Island.”

...

“No, I was never arrested and I don’t think he was, either,” said Andrew Young, who was the UN ambassador from 1977 to 1979, told the newspaper.

 

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