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US Politics: Money, Money, Money Makes the World Go Round

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14 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So what happens when Bernie loses in the general?  By a electoral college loss like HRC in '16?  What happens to his movement then?  All of the grand promises and pie in the sky change?  There will be more irrevocable damage to what he claims to want to do that the needed change will take at least another generation to get back to.  Bernie Sanders might be the leader of said movement, but he isn't the right President to see the start of enacting it.  He should be backing Warren, but instead his own hubris is going to cause things to end badly...

It's a movement for progressive legislation and progressive representatives.  It's not about Sanders alone.  Bernie himself will probably do exactly what he promised to regarding mass pressure of politicians to enact M4A and Green New Deal and getting oligarch and corporate money out of politics.  He wouldn't have the bully pulpit of being president, but this is genuinely a movement.  If you think its done if he loses, you just don't understand the times at all.

Women's Suffrage got it in 7 years via mass movement.  Civil Rights Act, mass movement.  Abolition of slavery, mass movement.  Through all those times there were "moderates" who said it couldn't be done.

There's zero percent chance the movement goes away.

 

Edited by SpaceChampion

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12 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You can credibly criticize it. You can't dismiss it just 'cause. Ad hominem was against the NY Post for the reasons I stated above. Being in the Post is grounds for being skeptical and making extra sure their sources are solid. Like I said, it was MSNBC's debate and they witnessed it first-hand.

So...if it's not covered by MSNBC it must necessarily not be true? If you think MSNBC is taking shots at Sanders just wait until you see what the Republicans reveal. The silence surrounding Bernie, even from MSNBC, is stunning. Research his past and notice not even MSNBC is covering it. But the Republicans surely will.

https://www.axios.com/centrist-democrat-bernie-trump-wins-2020-76900aca-ca3c-42a6-a7db-983d1dded0e2.html

I stated that you were going with the characterization of a self-described "grad scho for celebrity gossip" as evidence that Sanders was threatening the press.  And that's what it was, a characterization of his behavior that no one else was reporting.  My point about MSNBC was that if his behavior was so outrageous, you'd think all the offended journalists would have said something other than to Page Six.

There's no ad hominem in there.  A sensational publication used sensational language.  

On another note, I do think that even saying that to any journalist (i use that term loosely here with msnbc) is dumb for Sanders because it looks bad.  

 

 

 

Edited by larrytheimp

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1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Btw, it appears that turnout in both New Hampshire and Nevada exceeded turnout relative to the 2008 primary.

"Did Sanders peak too early?  Pundits concerned that people will be tired of enthusiasm come November"

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7 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Holy fuck the gymnastics it takes to make Bernie complaining directly to MSNBC executives equivalent at all to Trump's insidious "fake news" campaign, Twitter campaigns against any journalist that crosses him, and constant "enemy of the people" rhetoric. I'm no fan of Bernie's behavior but this is deranged bullshit.

It's not an equivalency and I never said it was. It's the same pattern of behavior which surrounds Bernie that reminds people of Trump. A lot. But some are still in denial about it or think everyone noticing this is just mass hysteria or something.

I'm mostly aggravated by Sanders' supporters making excuses and applying different standards to people they like. A lot of voters want Trump out because of his behavior more than anything. Putting up a candidate who reminds these people of Trump when Warren would have the same results as Bernie when considering what can actually pass is unexplainable.

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@DMCi read some commentary on the results last night that said the big winner wasn't Sanders, but was actually Chris Matthews bartender.

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14 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:



There's zero percent chance the movement goes away.

 

Didn't say it goes away. I said its irrevocably damaged for at least a generation because the perception that it can't be done.  

Bernie's movement isn't the problem.  Bernie himself is the problem.  

And I'll still hold my nose and vote for him.  But I'd rather see him in the background with someone better able to get things done leading the way. Like Warren.

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5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not an equivalency and I never said it was. It's the same pattern of behavior which surrounds Bernie that reminds people of Trump. A lot. But some are still in denial about it or think everyone noticing this is just mass hysteria or something.

I'm mostly aggravated by Sanders' supporters making excuses and applying different standards to people they like. A lot of voters want Trump out because of his behavior more than anything. Putting up a candidate who reminds these people of Trump when Warren would have the same results as Bernie when considering what can actually pass is unexplainable.

Where are all this people who think bernie is the next trump?(apart from you, obviously) 

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election/joe-biden-arrested-south-africa-nelson-mandela-fact-check-a9352946.html

Quote

Joe Biden is facing fresh scrutiny over claims that he was once arrested in South Africa while trying to visit Nelson Mandela in prison four deades ago.

The story has been told on the campaign trail by the former vice president several times in the past two weeks as he attempts what would be a remarkable political comeback in the Democratic primary, claiming that he was detained in 1977 while visiting the country as a US Senator from Delaware.

“This day, 30 years ago, Nelson Mandela walked out of prison and entered into discussions about apartheid,” Mr Biden said last week in South Carolina. “I had the great honor of meeting him. I had the great honor of being arrested with our UN ambassador on the streets of Soweto trying to get to see him on Robbens Island.”

...

“No, I was never arrested and I don’t think he was, either,” said Andrew Young, who was the UN ambassador from 1977 to 1979, told the newspaper.

 

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20 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Okay, so first Sanders wasn't electable because he only appealed to far-left crazies and toxic Bernie-bros. Then, when he makes massive inroads with nearly all demographic groups, he suddenly becomes unelectable because...he was upset at MSNBC's absolutely outrageous coverage of his campaign (brownshirts, just like Stalin, etc.)? So now that makes him just like Trump apparently? Some people around here need to get a grip.

Address me directly, please.

Not what I said. I'd like people to admit that they're using double standards. Would Trump get a whatever pass if he got up in the face of a member of the press, stuck his finger in their face and began yelling? No.

What Bernie did was part of a long list of behaviors which remind people of Trump. The excuses and double standards from his supporters, like Trump's supporters, is the most disturbing part of all of this when it's both parties doing it and not just one.

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Address me directly, please.

Not what I said. I'd like people to admit that they're using double standards. Would Trump get a whatever pass if he got up in the face of a member of the press, stuck his finger in their face and began yelling? No.

What Bernie did was part of a long list of behaviors which remind people of Trump. The excuses and double standards from his supporters, like Trump's supporters, is the most disturbing part of all of this when it's both parties doing it and not just one.

You're not the only one freaking out, so I addressed my comment generally. Once you stop fear-mongering and make a post with actual substance, I'll address you directly.

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12 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Didn't say it goes away. I said its irrevocably damaged for at least a generation because the perception that it can't be done.  

Bernie's movement isn't the problem.  Bernie himself is the problem.  

And I'll still hold my nose and vote for him.  But I'd rather see him in the background with someone better able to get things done leading the way. Like Warren.

Unfortunately the mass of people who vote Democrat seem to be thinking that Bernie Sanders is the best choice to lead them.

And no , I am not a Bernie Bro. I am in Canada and my vote doesn't count.

Edited by maarsen

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7 minutes ago, Gorn said:

“This day, 30 years ago, Nelson Mandela walked out of prison and entered into discussions about apartheid,” Mr Biden said last week in South Carolina. “I had the great honor of meeting him. I had the great honor of being arrested with our UN ambassador on the streets of Soweto trying to get to see him on Robbens Island.”

...

“No, I was never arrested and I don’t think he was, either,” said Andrew Young, who was the UN ambassador from 1977 to 1979, told the newspaper.

Yeah been following this a bit.  Not a good story to gain steam as you head into SC relying on your strength with the black vote.  I mean, just on its face, the notion he was arrested as a sitting US Senator and that just kinda got ignored til you mention it 40 years later?  Sounds like grade A bullshit on its face.

Would be appropriate though.  Considering how his first presidential campaign was taken out in 1988, it'd be..symmetrical if his last gasp is finally felled by another story of him (unnecessarily) exaggerating and/or making things up.

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10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Address me directly, please.

Not what I said. I'd like people to admit that they're using double standards. Would Trump get a whatever pass if he got up in the face of a member of the press, stuck his finger in their face and began yelling? No.

What Bernie did was part of a long list of behaviors which remind people of Trump. The excuses and double standards from his supporters, like Trump's supporters, is the most disturbing part of all of this when it's both parties doing it and not just one.

The fundamental difference is that Trump attacks the Press generally.  What you pointed out was Sanders getting upset at a particular press organization.  They are not the same things at all.

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58 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Bernie raised his voice?

He gestured emphatically???

I never would have imagined...

Some WASPs are apparently threatened by an old Jewish man daring to not keep his hands by his sides while kvetching.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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12 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I stated that you were going with the characterization of a self-described "grad scho for celebrity gossip" as evidence that Sanders was threatening the press.  And that's what it was, a characterization of his behavior that no one else was reporting.  My point about MSNBC was that if his behavior was so outrageous, you'd think all the offended journalists would have said something other than to Page Six.

There's no ad hominem in there.  A sensational publication used sensational language.  

On another note, I do think that even saying that to any journalist (i use that term loosely here with msnbc) is dumb for Sanders because it looks bad.   

 

 

 

No, I'm going with the reporting from the site I referenced which I've never had a problem with. I expect they've checked the story before advancing it on their own site. If it's untrue, MSNBC and Sanders can say so and should. I've yet to see that.

And yes, page six prints only untrue things.

https://pagesix.com/2020/02/22/quentin-tarantinos-wife-gives-birth-to-couples-first-child/

https://pagesix.com/2020/02/22/johnny-depp-screens-new-film-minamata-in-germany/

https://pagesix.com/2020/02/22/rapper-pop-smoke-canceled-brooklyn-gig-over-gang-concerns-days-before-murder/

All crazy stuff, right? Ad hominem. Again, show me the denial from MSNBC or Sanders.

Bold: Could you have not just said that in the first place instead of trying to alternate between defending it and denying it all over the place?

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3 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

You're not the only one freaking out, so I addressed my comment generally. Once you stop fear-mongering and make a post with actual substance, I'll address you directly.

It's not fear-mongering after you research him. I posted links earlier in this thread. I'm beyond frustrated that people are nominating someone who's not being properly vetted and dragging me along with them. Four more years of Trump freaks people out.

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23 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not an equivalency and I never said it was. It's the same pattern of behavior which surrounds Bernie that reminds people of Trump. A lot. But some are still in denial about it or think everyone noticing this is just mass hysteria or something.

I'm mostly aggravated by Sanders' supporters making excuses and applying different standards to people they like. A lot of voters want Trump out because of his behavior more than anything. Putting up a candidate who reminds these people of Trump when Warren would have the same results as Bernie when considering what can actually pass is unexplainable.

MSNBC trotted our Carville to call him unelectable (he used to call Obama unelectable) and compared it to the end times, Matthews compared him (a man who is Jewish and list family members to Nazi’s) to Nazi’s storming France, he also said maybe Dems would be better letting Trump win, they also have a contributor who referred to his African American female supporters as “misfit black girls”. 
 

Yeah there is a huge false equivalency going on when you compare his campaign rightfully criticizing them for that trash that doesn’t belong on the air AND Trump calling every fact they don’t like “fake news”. 

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4 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Where are all this people who think bernie is the next trump?(apart from you, obviously) 

Me! The man is a demagogue who leads his supporters into an angry and conspiratorial mindset on r/politcs the New York Times and Washington Post are both routinely derided as fake news. Or the 2020 candidates Bernie is the only one to have a sub quarantined for hatred. A portion of Bernie supporters want a violent revolution and he dogwhistles to them all the time. He surrounds himself with surrogates who voted for Jill Stein rather than Hillary and he has demonized the democratic party. You could get all the good without the bad with Warren but it looks like Bernie has got the nom and we will all be doomed to four more years of Trump.

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52 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So what happens when Bernie loses in the general?  By a electoral college loss like HRC in '16?  What happens to his movement then?  All of the grand promises and pie in the sky change?  There will be more irrevocable damage to what he claims to want to do that the needed change will take at least another generation to get back to.  Bernie Sanders might be the leader of said movement, but he isn't the right President to see the start of enacting it.  He should be backing Warren, but instead his own hubris is going to cause things to end badly...

Bernie is no more or less likely to win the popular vote but lose the election than Hillary or any other Dem. If this happens again, for the third time in just six elections, it will just prove again what a Republican-favoring racket the electoral college is. It wouldn't reflect poorly on Bernie, or indicate that Biden or Warren or some other candidate would have done better. Enough of the Bernie fear mongering. Why should he have backed a candidate that most Democratic voters are not choosing to back? That is idiotic.

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