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US Politics: Money, Money, Money Makes the World Go Round

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not fear-mongering after you research him. I posted links earlier in this thread. I'm beyond frustrated that people are nominating someone who's not being properly vetted and dragging me along with them. Four more years of Trump freaks people out.

 By that metric, who has been properly vetted? He’s been in politics longer than candidate not named Biden (who btw if he gets the nom has a lot of skeletons that prevented him from nominations before). 

But who? Warren? She’s a Senator in arguably the most liberal state in country and has only been on the scene less than a decade.

The small time mayor from an average show city that nobody heard of a year ago who under his first intense look has a massive police corruption problem? 
 

The billionaire with a dozen sexual misconduct NDA’s? Who has only been in the race a few weeks? Yeah I’m sure that will work out and nothing is going to come from that. 
 

Klobuchar? Nobody has taken her seriously until NH and as soon as that happened she got hit with problematic prosecution. 
 

Im not sure I understand the validity of this metric 

 

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5 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Me! The man is a demagogue who leads his supporters into an angry and conspiratorial mindset on r/politcs the New York Times and Washington Post are both routinely derided as fake news. Or the 2020 candidates Bernie is the only one to have a sub quarantined for hatred. A portion of Bernie supporters want a violent revolution and he dogwhistles to them all the time. He surrounds himself with surrogates who voted for Jill Stein rather than Hillary and he has demonized the democratic party. You could get all the good without the bad with Warren but it looks like Bernie has got the nom and we will all be doomed to four more years of Trump.

Warren needed to win to do that. She was well positioned to be the middle ground candidate and she couldn’t deal with the pressure. 

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3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

One can view both Trump and Bernie as equally destructive in different ways. It can be argued that choosing the Bernie one finds when digging through his past (as opposed to people's Headcanon Bernie) can be worse because then both parties have gone off the rails instead of just one.

Bernie needs to be very careful to not make people feel like they're only choosing between the pot and the kettle and his past and not disavowing those views is extremely concerning.

And crap like this sometimes makes those differences look not so far apart. I'm sick of this sort of entitled it's-not-fair-if-it-goes-against-me behavior from Trump where he's reacting like a hostile playground bully instead of an adult and sometimes I have a lot of trouble seeing the difference between the two if you give Bernie that much power with a similar base to Trump's.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/bernie-sanders-reportedly-flipped-out-on-msnbc-execs-before-debate-over-networks-coverage/

What are you even talking about with his past? Yours is truly the "head cannon" in regards to Bernie. You've created something about him and his past that as much as we've asked you to expand, you just can't produce into reality.

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15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The fundamental difference is that Trump attacks the Press generally.  What you pointed out was Sanders getting upset at a particular press organization.  They are not the same things at all.

Again, drawing comparisons =/= making equivalencies. I don't have a problem with him being upset. It was the way he was upset. That behavior is not ok. Be an adult.

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Just now, Simon Steele said:

What are you even talking about with his past? Yours is truly the "head cannon" in regards to Bernie. You've created something about him and his past that as much as we've asked you to expand, you just can't produce into reality.

I posted sources upthread. Crazy sources like CNN.

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Just now, DanteGabriel said:

So... Tone policing.

Am I wrong?

Also, you can't accuse someone of tone policing without tone policing yourself.

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50 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

What did Al Gore's loss mean for Dems in 2000?  The end of the world?

 

Well in a very real way it's on fire, so... it definitely set back environmental regulation and change. And to hear most Bernard supporters tell it, the world is so doomed by climate change that if their man isn't elected they'd vote for Trump because acceleration=something

I've read such assertions on this forum. I've had these people in my house, I've listened to their brain dead prognostications and justifications for why Bernie is going to, by himself apparently, save the world and considering anyone else is blatantly racist/sexist/x-phobic/y-phobic/moreidioticaccusations.

Note that as Sanders has wrapped up the nomination I don't see a great deal of people around these parts saying they'll vote for Trump in November, rather they're expressing despair at what they perceive as an upcoming loss and stating they'll vote for him even in a losing effort. Y'know, like team players.

46 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

 

Women's Suffrage got it in 7 years via mass movement.  Civil Rights Act, mass movement.  Abolition of slavery, mass movement.  Through all those times there were "moderates" who said it couldn't be done.

There's zero percent chance the movement goes away.

 

Why don't you compare your little political hijacking to Gandhi and Haitian Revolution next.

I can't even conceive of what this 'movement' is. Is it just being obnoxious? Because Trump supporters are fucking obnovious. Is it workers' rights? I don't think so. Because nobody who gave a damn about workers' rights would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, never ever threaten to vote for the likes of Donald Trump for "reasons."

Movements require consistent ideological goals and generalized efforts to achieve them. Medicare for all is not a movement. There aren't people marching in the streets for their M4A. There aren't people marching in the streets for Workers' Rights or the environment. And even if they were, do you think it would matter? How did that whole Pussy Hat thing go?

Mass movement only matters if the masses actually want something and are actually willing to do something to get it.

This is America, ain't nobody a part of a movement that isn't dedicated to guns or rehabilitating the Nazi Party's image.

14 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Some WASPs are apparently threatened by an old Jewish man daring to not keep his hands by his sides while kvetching.

I don't know what WASPs are.

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41 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not an equivalency and I never said it was. It's the same pattern of behavior which surrounds Bernie that reminds people of Trump. A lot. But some are still in denial about it or think everyone noticing this is just mass hysteria or something.

I'm mostly aggravated by Sanders' supporters making excuses and applying different standards to people they like. A lot of voters want Trump out because of his behavior more than anything. Putting up a candidate who reminds these people of Trump when Warren would have the same results as Bernie when considering what can actually pass is unexplainable.

This is just all kinds of delusional.

1. Nothing about the behaviour or actions of Bernie or his supporters approaches Trump and his. If all Trump had going against him were a small group of anonymous internet trolls that may or may not actually be part of his camp we'd be a hell of a lot better off than we actually are. The idea that these anonymous trolls are at all directed by Bernie or representative of his base is total bullshit. I don't love that guy, and some of his supporters annoy me, but there's no comparison. 

2. The idea that Warren would have the same results as Bernie are without basis. She isn't even competitive against Bernie in the primary, the idea that she would somehow be more effective than Bernie this time is without basis.

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Just now, Lollygag said:

Am I wrong?

Also, you can't accuse someone of tone policing without tone policing yourself.

One of your sources is the implication that because he didn’t speak out directly saying Maduro should be ousted he is authoritatian friendly. 
 

That’s literally the first source you posted. 
 

 

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5 minutes ago, lancerman said:

 By that metric, who has been properly vetted? He’s been in politics longer than candidate not named Biden (who btw if he gets the nom has a lot of skeletons that prevented him from nominations before). 

All this stuff. Most of which is unknown to the general public. Praising Fidel Castro, Saying it was ok for the Sandinistas to lock up journalists, putting a Soviet flag in his office. Sanders has a history of excusing leftwing authoritarianism and it has not been brought up at all. I realize some of the links are smears, but some have videos and smears work even when addressed see how easy the narrative of Pete Buttiigieg being in the pocket of billionairesgot traction despite being based on half truths. and none of that stuff has been talked about to the American public and it will turn middle America off like no other.   

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13 minutes ago, lancerman said:

MSNBC trotted our Carville to call him unelectable (he used to call Obama unelectable) and compared it to the end times, Matthews compared him (a man who is Jewish and list family members to Nazi’s) to Nazi’s storming France, he also said maybe Dems would be better letting Trump win, they also have a contributor who referred to his African American female supporters as “misfit black girls”. 
 

Yeah there is a huge false equivalency going on when you compare his campaign rightfully criticizing them for that trash that doesn’t belong on the air AND Trump calling every fact they don’t like “fake news”. 

Yet again, I don't have a problem with Bernie calling them out. It was the way he called them out.

Comparisons aren't equivalencies. OMG.

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Am I wrong?

Also, you can't accuse someone of tone policing without tone policing yourself.

This seems an awful lot like "you are intolerant of my intolerance." Your arguments are nonsensical and rely on a strawman standing on a slippery slope.

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Again, drawing comparisons =/= making equivalencies. I don't have a problem with him being upset. It was the way he was upset. That behavior is not ok. Be an adult.

@Ser Scot A Ellison

Yeah Scot, and you know who else wears ties and has crazy hair? Only one DONALD J. TRUMP! This insidious, tie-wearing, crazy hair-having, finger-pointing monster MUST BE STOPPED!! Or else this is the inevitable outcome:

Mass hysteria!

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1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So what happens when Bernie loses in the general?  By a electoral college loss like HRC in '16?  What happens to his movement then?  All of the grand promises and pie in the sky change?  There will be more irrevocable damage to what he claims to want to do that the needed change will take at least another generation to get back to.  Bernie Sanders might be the leader of said movement, but he isn't the right President to see the start of enacting it.  He should be backing Warren, but instead his own hubris is going to cause things to end badly...

I have to think if Bernie loses the same way Clinton did, then we have evidence something bigger at play (than policy stances) is impacting these outcomes. Bernie's movement will "die" if he loses because this is his last shot. Other progressives will step into his place tho, and just like the safe, moderate choice losing in 2016 didn't kill that view, moving to the left won't die either.

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16 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Warren needed to win to do that. She was well positioned to be the middle ground candidate and she couldn’t deal with the pressure. 

True, but she didn't and now I'm praying that Joe Biden can pull a win in South Carolina and save us all from Trump.

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1 minute ago, Darzin said:

All this stuff. Most of which is unknown to the general public. Praising Fidel Castro, Saying it was ok for the Sandinistas to lock up journalists, putting a Soviet flag in his office. Sanders has a history of excusing leftwing authoritarianism and it has not been brought up at all. I realize some of the links are smears, but some have videos and smears work even when addressed see how easy the narrative of Pete Buttiigieg being in the pocket of billionairesgot traction despite being based on half truths. and none of that stuff has been talked about to the American public and it will turn middle America off like no other.   

You honestly think you couldn’t do that for every candidate? Or that it’s unknown? Or that even half of that plays well with the electorate? 
 

At least we know Bernie’s record. Half of these people the public never heard of or paid attention to until a month ago. 
 

Wait until Trump circulates videos of Biden saying you can’t go into seven eleven without a slight Indian accent and screaming at black men about not wearing condoms. Better yet wait until all the videos of him on the floor praising Bush make circulation. There’s a reason he couldn’t win before. 
 

Wait until they dig in on the others to 

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1 minute ago, Darzin said:

True, but she didn't and now I'm praying that Joe Biden can pull a win in South Carolina and save us all from Trump.

Biden will lose in my opinion. There’s a reason he’s disappointed in every primary he has been in. Not for nothing, we already ran a white centrist who supported the Iraq war who was part of the Obama admin that has a ready made fake scandal for Trump to go after. It didn’t work out 

 

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