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Fragile Bird

US Politics: Money, Money, Money Makes the World Go Round

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20 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Okay, so first Sanders wasn't electable because he only appealed to far-left crazies and toxic Bernie-bros. Then, when he makes massive inroads with nearly all demographic groups, he suddenly becomes unelectable because...he was upset at MSNBC's absolutely outrageous coverage of his campaign (brownshirts, just like Stalin, etc.)? So now that makes him just like Trump apparently? Some people around here need to get a grip.

Address me directly, please.

Not what I said. I'd like people to admit that they're using double standards. Would Trump get a whatever pass if he got up in the face of a member of the press, stuck his finger in their face and began yelling? No.

What Bernie did was part of a long list of behaviors which remind people of Trump. The excuses and double standards from his supporters, like Trump's supporters, is the most disturbing part of all of this when it's both parties doing it and not just one.

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Address me directly, please.

Not what I said. I'd like people to admit that they're using double standards. Would Trump get a whatever pass if he got up in the face of a member of the press, stuck his finger in their face and began yelling? No.

What Bernie did was part of a long list of behaviors which remind people of Trump. The excuses and double standards from his supporters, like Trump's supporters, is the most disturbing part of all of this when it's both parties doing it and not just one.

You're not the only one freaking out, so I addressed my comment generally. Once you stop fear-mongering and make a post with actual substance, I'll address you directly.

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12 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Didn't say it goes away. I said its irrevocably damaged for at least a generation because the perception that it can't be done.  

Bernie's movement isn't the problem.  Bernie himself is the problem.  

And I'll still hold my nose and vote for him.  But I'd rather see him in the background with someone better able to get things done leading the way. Like Warren.

Unfortunately the mass of people who vote Democrat seem to be thinking that Bernie Sanders is the best choice to lead them.

And no , I am not a Bernie Bro. I am in Canada and my vote doesn't count.

Edited by maarsen

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7 minutes ago, Gorn said:

“This day, 30 years ago, Nelson Mandela walked out of prison and entered into discussions about apartheid,” Mr Biden said last week in South Carolina. “I had the great honor of meeting him. I had the great honor of being arrested with our UN ambassador on the streets of Soweto trying to get to see him on Robbens Island.”

...

“No, I was never arrested and I don’t think he was, either,” said Andrew Young, who was the UN ambassador from 1977 to 1979, told the newspaper.

Yeah been following this a bit.  Not a good story to gain steam as you head into SC relying on your strength with the black vote.  I mean, just on its face, the notion he was arrested as a sitting US Senator and that just kinda got ignored til you mention it 40 years later?  Sounds like grade A bullshit on its face.

Would be appropriate though.  Considering how his first presidential campaign was taken out in 1988, it'd be..symmetrical if his last gasp is finally felled by another story of him (unnecessarily) exaggerating and/or making things up.

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10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Address me directly, please.

Not what I said. I'd like people to admit that they're using double standards. Would Trump get a whatever pass if he got up in the face of a member of the press, stuck his finger in their face and began yelling? No.

What Bernie did was part of a long list of behaviors which remind people of Trump. The excuses and double standards from his supporters, like Trump's supporters, is the most disturbing part of all of this when it's both parties doing it and not just one.

The fundamental difference is that Trump attacks the Press generally.  What you pointed out was Sanders getting upset at a particular press organization.  They are not the same things at all.

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58 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Bernie raised his voice?

He gestured emphatically???

I never would have imagined...

Some WASPs are apparently threatened by an old Jewish man daring to not keep his hands by his sides while kvetching.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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12 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I stated that you were going with the characterization of a self-described "grad scho for celebrity gossip" as evidence that Sanders was threatening the press.  And that's what it was, a characterization of his behavior that no one else was reporting.  My point about MSNBC was that if his behavior was so outrageous, you'd think all the offended journalists would have said something other than to Page Six.

There's no ad hominem in there.  A sensational publication used sensational language.  

On another note, I do think that even saying that to any journalist (i use that term loosely here with msnbc) is dumb for Sanders because it looks bad.   

 

 

 

No, I'm going with the reporting from the site I referenced which I've never had a problem with. I expect they've checked the story before advancing it on their own site. If it's untrue, MSNBC and Sanders can say so and should. I've yet to see that.

And yes, page six prints only untrue things.

https://pagesix.com/2020/02/22/quentin-tarantinos-wife-gives-birth-to-couples-first-child/

https://pagesix.com/2020/02/22/johnny-depp-screens-new-film-minamata-in-germany/

https://pagesix.com/2020/02/22/rapper-pop-smoke-canceled-brooklyn-gig-over-gang-concerns-days-before-murder/

All crazy stuff, right? Ad hominem. Again, show me the denial from MSNBC or Sanders.

Bold: Could you have not just said that in the first place instead of trying to alternate between defending it and denying it all over the place?

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3 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

You're not the only one freaking out, so I addressed my comment generally. Once you stop fear-mongering and make a post with actual substance, I'll address you directly.

It's not fear-mongering after you research him. I posted links earlier in this thread. I'm beyond frustrated that people are nominating someone who's not being properly vetted and dragging me along with them. Four more years of Trump freaks people out.

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23 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not an equivalency and I never said it was. It's the same pattern of behavior which surrounds Bernie that reminds people of Trump. A lot. But some are still in denial about it or think everyone noticing this is just mass hysteria or something.

I'm mostly aggravated by Sanders' supporters making excuses and applying different standards to people they like. A lot of voters want Trump out because of his behavior more than anything. Putting up a candidate who reminds these people of Trump when Warren would have the same results as Bernie when considering what can actually pass is unexplainable.

MSNBC trotted our Carville to call him unelectable (he used to call Obama unelectable) and compared it to the end times, Matthews compared him (a man who is Jewish and list family members to Nazi’s) to Nazi’s storming France, he also said maybe Dems would be better letting Trump win, they also have a contributor who referred to his African American female supporters as “misfit black girls”. 
 

Yeah there is a huge false equivalency going on when you compare his campaign rightfully criticizing them for that trash that doesn’t belong on the air AND Trump calling every fact they don’t like “fake news”. 

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4 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Where are all this people who think bernie is the next trump?(apart from you, obviously) 

Me! The man is a demagogue who leads his supporters into an angry and conspiratorial mindset on r/politcs the New York Times and Washington Post are both routinely derided as fake news. Or the 2020 candidates Bernie is the only one to have a sub quarantined for hatred. A portion of Bernie supporters want a violent revolution and he dogwhistles to them all the time. He surrounds himself with surrogates who voted for Jill Stein rather than Hillary and he has demonized the democratic party. You could get all the good without the bad with Warren but it looks like Bernie has got the nom and we will all be doomed to four more years of Trump.

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52 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So what happens when Bernie loses in the general?  By a electoral college loss like HRC in '16?  What happens to his movement then?  All of the grand promises and pie in the sky change?  There will be more irrevocable damage to what he claims to want to do that the needed change will take at least another generation to get back to.  Bernie Sanders might be the leader of said movement, but he isn't the right President to see the start of enacting it.  He should be backing Warren, but instead his own hubris is going to cause things to end badly...

Bernie is no more or less likely to win the popular vote but lose the election than Hillary or any other Dem. If this happens again, for the third time in just six elections, it will just prove again what a Republican-favoring racket the electoral college is. It wouldn't reflect poorly on Bernie, or indicate that Biden or Warren or some other candidate would have done better. Enough of the Bernie fear mongering. Why should he have backed a candidate that most Democratic voters are not choosing to back? That is idiotic.

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not fear-mongering after you research him. I posted links earlier in this thread. I'm beyond frustrated that people are nominating someone who's not being properly vetted and dragging me along with them. Four more years of Trump freaks people out.

 By that metric, who has been properly vetted? He’s been in politics longer than candidate not named Biden (who btw if he gets the nom has a lot of skeletons that prevented him from nominations before). 

But who? Warren? She’s a Senator in arguably the most liberal state in country and has only been on the scene less than a decade.

The small time mayor from an average show city that nobody heard of a year ago who under his first intense look has a massive police corruption problem? 
 

The billionaire with a dozen sexual misconduct NDA’s? Who has only been in the race a few weeks? Yeah I’m sure that will work out and nothing is going to come from that. 
 

Klobuchar? Nobody has taken her seriously until NH and as soon as that happened she got hit with problematic prosecution. 
 

Im not sure I understand the validity of this metric 

 

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5 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Me! The man is a demagogue who leads his supporters into an angry and conspiratorial mindset on r/politcs the New York Times and Washington Post are both routinely derided as fake news. Or the 2020 candidates Bernie is the only one to have a sub quarantined for hatred. A portion of Bernie supporters want a violent revolution and he dogwhistles to them all the time. He surrounds himself with surrogates who voted for Jill Stein rather than Hillary and he has demonized the democratic party. You could get all the good without the bad with Warren but it looks like Bernie has got the nom and we will all be doomed to four more years of Trump.

Warren needed to win to do that. She was well positioned to be the middle ground candidate and she couldn’t deal with the pressure. 

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3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

One can view both Trump and Bernie as equally destructive in different ways. It can be argued that choosing the Bernie one finds when digging through his past (as opposed to people's Headcanon Bernie) can be worse because then both parties have gone off the rails instead of just one.

Bernie needs to be very careful to not make people feel like they're only choosing between the pot and the kettle and his past and not disavowing those views is extremely concerning.

And crap like this sometimes makes those differences look not so far apart. I'm sick of this sort of entitled it's-not-fair-if-it-goes-against-me behavior from Trump where he's reacting like a hostile playground bully instead of an adult and sometimes I have a lot of trouble seeing the difference between the two if you give Bernie that much power with a similar base to Trump's.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/bernie-sanders-reportedly-flipped-out-on-msnbc-execs-before-debate-over-networks-coverage/

What are you even talking about with his past? Yours is truly the "head cannon" in regards to Bernie. You've created something about him and his past that as much as we've asked you to expand, you just can't produce into reality.

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15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The fundamental difference is that Trump attacks the Press generally.  What you pointed out was Sanders getting upset at a particular press organization.  They are not the same things at all.

Again, drawing comparisons =/= making equivalencies. I don't have a problem with him being upset. It was the way he was upset. That behavior is not ok. Be an adult.

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1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Again, drawing comparisons =/= making equivalencies. I don't have a problem with him being upset. It was the way he was upset. That behavior is not ok. Be an adult.

So... Tone policing.

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Just now, Simon Steele said:

What are you even talking about with his past? Yours is truly the "head cannon" in regards to Bernie. You've created something about him and his past that as much as we've asked you to expand, you just can't produce into reality.

I posted sources upthread. Crazy sources like CNN.

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Just now, DanteGabriel said:

So... Tone policing.

Am I wrong?

Also, you can't accuse someone of tone policing without tone policing yourself.

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50 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

What did Al Gore's loss mean for Dems in 2000?  The end of the world?

 

Well in a very real way it's on fire, so... it definitely set back environmental regulation and change. And to hear most Bernard supporters tell it, the world is so doomed by climate change that if their man isn't elected they'd vote for Trump because acceleration=something

I've read such assertions on this forum. I've had these people in my house, I've listened to their brain dead prognostications and justifications for why Bernie is going to, by himself apparently, save the world and considering anyone else is blatantly racist/sexist/x-phobic/y-phobic/moreidioticaccusations.

Note that as Sanders has wrapped up the nomination I don't see a great deal of people around these parts saying they'll vote for Trump in November, rather they're expressing despair at what they perceive as an upcoming loss and stating they'll vote for him even in a losing effort. Y'know, like team players.

46 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

 

Women's Suffrage got it in 7 years via mass movement.  Civil Rights Act, mass movement.  Abolition of slavery, mass movement.  Through all those times there were "moderates" who said it couldn't be done.

There's zero percent chance the movement goes away.

 

Why don't you compare your little political hijacking to Gandhi and Haitian Revolution next.

I can't even conceive of what this 'movement' is. Is it just being obnoxious? Because Trump supporters are fucking obnovious. Is it workers' rights? I don't think so. Because nobody who gave a damn about workers' rights would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, never ever threaten to vote for the likes of Donald Trump for "reasons."

Movements require consistent ideological goals and generalized efforts to achieve them. Medicare for all is not a movement. There aren't people marching in the streets for their M4A. There aren't people marching in the streets for Workers' Rights or the environment. And even if they were, do you think it would matter? How did that whole Pussy Hat thing go?

Mass movement only matters if the masses actually want something and are actually willing to do something to get it.

This is America, ain't nobody a part of a movement that isn't dedicated to guns or rehabilitating the Nazi Party's image.

14 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Some WASPs are apparently threatened by an old Jewish man daring to not keep his hands by his sides while kvetching.

I don't know what WASPs are.

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