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Fragile Bird

US Politics: Money, Money, Money Makes the World Go Round

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41 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not an equivalency and I never said it was. It's the same pattern of behavior which surrounds Bernie that reminds people of Trump. A lot. But some are still in denial about it or think everyone noticing this is just mass hysteria or something.

I'm mostly aggravated by Sanders' supporters making excuses and applying different standards to people they like. A lot of voters want Trump out because of his behavior more than anything. Putting up a candidate who reminds these people of Trump when Warren would have the same results as Bernie when considering what can actually pass is unexplainable.

This is just all kinds of delusional.

1. Nothing about the behaviour or actions of Bernie or his supporters approaches Trump and his. If all Trump had going against him were a small group of anonymous internet trolls that may or may not actually be part of his camp we'd be a hell of a lot better off than we actually are. The idea that these anonymous trolls are at all directed by Bernie or representative of his base is total bullshit. I don't love that guy, and some of his supporters annoy me, but there's no comparison. 

2. The idea that Warren would have the same results as Bernie are without basis. She isn't even competitive against Bernie in the primary, the idea that she would somehow be more effective than Bernie this time is without basis.

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Just now, Lollygag said:

Am I wrong?

Also, you can't accuse someone of tone policing without tone policing yourself.

One of your sources is the implication that because he didn’t speak out directly saying Maduro should be ousted he is authoritatian friendly. 
 

That’s literally the first source you posted. 
 

 

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5 minutes ago, lancerman said:

 By that metric, who has been properly vetted? He’s been in politics longer than candidate not named Biden (who btw if he gets the nom has a lot of skeletons that prevented him from nominations before). 

All this stuff. Most of which is unknown to the general public. Praising Fidel Castro, Saying it was ok for the Sandinistas to lock up journalists, putting a Soviet flag in his office. Sanders has a history of excusing leftwing authoritarianism and it has not been brought up at all. I realize some of the links are smears, but some have videos and smears work even when addressed see how easy the narrative of Pete Buttiigieg being in the pocket of billionairesgot traction despite being based on half truths. and none of that stuff has been talked about to the American public and it will turn middle America off like no other.   

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13 minutes ago, lancerman said:

MSNBC trotted our Carville to call him unelectable (he used to call Obama unelectable) and compared it to the end times, Matthews compared him (a man who is Jewish and list family members to Nazi’s) to Nazi’s storming France, he also said maybe Dems would be better letting Trump win, they also have a contributor who referred to his African American female supporters as “misfit black girls”. 
 

Yeah there is a huge false equivalency going on when you compare his campaign rightfully criticizing them for that trash that doesn’t belong on the air AND Trump calling every fact they don’t like “fake news”. 

Yet again, I don't have a problem with Bernie calling them out. It was the way he called them out.

Comparisons aren't equivalencies. OMG.

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Am I wrong?

Also, you can't accuse someone of tone policing without tone policing yourself.

This seems an awful lot like "you are intolerant of my intolerance." Your arguments are nonsensical and rely on a strawman standing on a slippery slope.

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Again, drawing comparisons =/= making equivalencies. I don't have a problem with him being upset. It was the way he was upset. That behavior is not ok. Be an adult.

@Ser Scot A Ellison

Yeah Scot, and you know who else wears ties and has crazy hair? Only one DONALD J. TRUMP! This insidious, tie-wearing, crazy hair-having, finger-pointing monster MUST BE STOPPED!! Or else this is the inevitable outcome:

Mass hysteria!

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1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So what happens when Bernie loses in the general?  By a electoral college loss like HRC in '16?  What happens to his movement then?  All of the grand promises and pie in the sky change?  There will be more irrevocable damage to what he claims to want to do that the needed change will take at least another generation to get back to.  Bernie Sanders might be the leader of said movement, but he isn't the right President to see the start of enacting it.  He should be backing Warren, but instead his own hubris is going to cause things to end badly...

I have to think if Bernie loses the same way Clinton did, then we have evidence something bigger at play (than policy stances) is impacting these outcomes. Bernie's movement will "die" if he loses because this is his last shot. Other progressives will step into his place tho, and just like the safe, moderate choice losing in 2016 didn't kill that view, moving to the left won't die either.

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16 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Warren needed to win to do that. She was well positioned to be the middle ground candidate and she couldn’t deal with the pressure. 

True, but she didn't and now I'm praying that Joe Biden can pull a win in South Carolina and save us all from Trump.

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1 minute ago, Darzin said:

All this stuff. Most of which is unknown to the general public. Praising Fidel Castro, Saying it was ok for the Sandinistas to lock up journalists, putting a Soviet flag in his office. Sanders has a history of excusing leftwing authoritarianism and it has not been brought up at all. I realize some of the links are smears, but some have videos and smears work even when addressed see how easy the narrative of Pete Buttiigieg being in the pocket of billionairesgot traction despite being based on half truths. and none of that stuff has been talked about to the American public and it will turn middle America off like no other.   

You honestly think you couldn’t do that for every candidate? Or that it’s unknown? Or that even half of that plays well with the electorate? 
 

At least we know Bernie’s record. Half of these people the public never heard of or paid attention to until a month ago. 
 

Wait until Trump circulates videos of Biden saying you can’t go into seven eleven without a slight Indian accent and screaming at black men about not wearing condoms. Better yet wait until all the videos of him on the floor praising Bush make circulation. There’s a reason he couldn’t win before. 
 

Wait until they dig in on the others to 

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1 minute ago, Darzin said:

True, but she didn't and now I'm praying that Joe Biden can pull a win in South Carolina and save us all from Trump.

Biden will lose in my opinion. There’s a reason he’s disappointed in every primary he has been in. Not for nothing, we already ran a white centrist who supported the Iraq war who was part of the Obama admin that has a ready made fake scandal for Trump to go after. It didn’t work out 

 

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Just now, lancerman said:

You honestly think you couldn’t do that for every candidate? Or that it’s unknown? Or that even half of that plays well with the electorate? 
 

No I don't think I could find most candidates praising authoritarian regimes or hanging the flag of a hated enemy in their office. I realize every candidate has oppo research, but just the Castro stuff takes Florida out of play not to mention being pretty morally problematic.

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21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

indicate that Biden or Warren or some other candidate would have done better. Enough of the Bernie fear mongering. Why should he have backed a candidate that most Democratic voters are not choosing to back? That is idiotic.

Actually, yes, it may well suggest that Biden or Warren or any other candidate could have won while Bernie didn't because of the unique and identifiable weaknesses Bernie has that literally every other candidate does not.  As for Bernie stepping aside for Warren, no, I don't think it would have been "idiotic."  If you're good friends with another candidate, your policies essentially align, she has quite a bit of buzz, and you're a 78-year-old retread that has the socialist label sewed on as a scarlet letter, I'd say it'd be the pretty classy and prudent thing to do to put the support of this movement you've built behind a candidate like Warren.  Obviously it's been too late to do so for months now, so it's moot, but that definitely wouldn't have been idiotic.

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1 minute ago, Darzin said:

No I don't think I could find most candidates praising authoritarian regimes or hanging the flag of a hated enemy in their office. I realize every candidate has oppo research, but just the Castro stuff takes Florida out of play not to mention being pretty morally problematic.

What makes you think Biden who is very similar to Hillary (who lost Florida), can do it? 
 

Or Buttigieg and Klobuchar who have no minority support will win a Latino heavy state? 
 

Or Warren who is just as liberal and doesn’t perform well there in most polls? 

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Actually, yes, it may well suggest that Biden or Warren or any other candidate could have won while Bernie didn't because of the unique and identifiable weaknesses Bernie has that literally every other candidate does not.  As for Bernie stepping aside for Warren, no, I don't think it would have been "idiotic."  If you're good friends with another candidate, your policies essentially align, she has quite a bit of buzz, and you're a 78-year-old retread that has the socialist label sewed on as a scarlet letter, I'd say it'd be the pretty classy and prudent thing to do to put the support of this movement you've built behind a candidate like Warren.  Obviously it's been too late to do so for months now, so it's moot, but that definitely wouldn't have been idiotic.

1. He asked her to run a long time ago. She didn’t 

2. She blew a surge already and has shown no ability to build a coalition or that she would succeed at all here. 

3. She’s also in her 70’s.

4. Your kidding yourself if you think her policies won’t get her labeled a socialist. They called Obama a socialist 

 

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Just now, lancerman said:

1. He asked her to run a long time ago. She didn’t 

2. She blew a surge already and has shown no ability to build a coalition or that she would succeed at all here. 

3. She’s also in her 70’s.

4. Your kidding yourself if you think her policies won’t get her labeled a socialist. They called Obama a socialist 

1.  He says he asked her to run in 2016.  Against Hillary who everyone assumed would win.  As opposed to now with a much more wide open field.

2.  This has nothing to do with the points I raised.  And, not for nothing, there were significant attacks on her health care plan by Bernie surrogates/supporters that likely contributed to her "blowing" her surge.

3.  She's still 8 years younger, which is the (hopefully still) maximum length of a presidency.  More importantly, she has not been on the national scene nearly to the degree of Sanders, thus opinions of her are much more malleable/less entrenched.

4.  Sigh, this isn't the point at all and I'm running out of patience for this response.  Elizabeth Warren is not a self-identified democratic socialist.  That is an objective, clear electoral difference - and advantage - for her compared to Sanders.

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7 minutes ago, lancerman said:

What makes you think Biden who is very similar to Hillary (who lost Florida), can do it? 
 

Or Buttigieg and Klobuchar who have no minority support will win a Latino heavy state? 
 

Or Warren who is just as liberal and doesn’t perform well there in most polls? 

So I won't defend going after Florida (It's dead red to me) but I don't think fixating on it is to your credit. The concern is clearly about the man's...

I just can't get past this. Can someone give me a reference to this Soviet flag business? Because that is... fucking awful. Not even in an "I won't vote for him" way, because I'll take a Soviet over a Nazi any day. But that's truly disappointing. I've thought a lot of things about Senator Sanders over the years, however I don't recall thinking he was a fucking moron before today.

Edited by Jace, Basilissa

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15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Am I wrong?

Also, you can't accuse someone of tone policing without tone policing yourself.

Maybe you are not wrong, who cares, like  really, how is sanders waving a finger to some journalist, such a big deal, dont you think, that maybe you are building a mountain out of a grain of sand? Maybe cuz your supposed "skeletons" on bernie's closet, arent real, so you have to give sooo much time on something so little. 

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5 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Wait, did he really hang a Soviet flag in his office? Because that's... gross.

Yes he did.

2 minutes ago, lancerman said:

What makes you think Biden who is very similar to Hillary (who lost Florida), can do it? 
 

Well I think that if it were a straight popular vote I would be a lot less worried he polls decently against Trump, but once you get into state polls he does worse. Running up the score in California won't help, Hillary herself got more votes.  I don't think he can win middle America and  it also worries me his base are the young and nonvoters, two of the the most unreliable voting blocks. That combined with the torrent of anti socialist anti communist propaganda the Republicans will unleash combined with Bernie's favorable statements of the same will sink him with old but reliable voters who are primed to hate these things. 

 

Notice I didn't say his polices are too far left, it;s everything else about him and even there he won't make some simple changes. He could turn medicare for all from an unpopular one to a popular one by taking out the line banning private insurance. It wouldn't cost the government any more money or anything but he won't and people who equate health insurance with healthcare, will hear the true statement, Bernie wants to make your health insurance illegal, and think that means they won't get healthcare. 

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Bernie losing the election wouldn't be a huge blow to leftists.  Bernie winning the presidency would be.  In the current polarized environment the chance of Bernie being able to actually enact any major new laws is very low.  Especially, because Bernie being elected president will probably temporarily cost the Democrats a seat in the senate which is is already a long shot for them to recapture.  4 years of Bernie probably won't be too different than 4 years of any other Democrat.  Leftist enthusiasm will diminish like Obama's did.

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