If Ashara =Lemore, what's the sequence of events?

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, lehutin said:

You've been a fan longer than I have , so this is my guess as a more recent entrant to the fandom. From what I can tell, your question was a big reason why N+A=J fell by the wayside for many years. If Jon really is just Ned's bastard with Ashara, so what? What's the big deal?

 

The answers I've heard are that Ned was "ashamed" of his fling with Ashara, or that Ned wanted to "protect/preserve" Ashara's "memory." Both of which are really weak answers. Ned condemns his bastard son to a childhood of never knowing who his mother is and causes a rift in his marriage to Cat for these reasons? Nah.

Yes, the question “why the secrecy” is one of many that can’t be answered in a satisfactory manner. But IMO the fact that Ned never, not once, thinks about Ashara is as relevant. And there’s more, of course. From what I’ve seen over the years, the arguments against R+L=J come mostly from 3 groups: 

1) Targ fans who intensely dislike the Starks and/or Jon and can’t handle the fact that Jon is half Targ

2) Stark fans who dislike the Targs and can’t handle the fact that Jon is half Targ (this group is much smaller than group 1)

3) readers who find R+L=J too obvious and/or want to be the special snowflake who “figured it all out”. 

But IMO Martin did a brilliant job in how he handled the issue of Jon’s parentage. It’s clear to many readers that Ned isn’t Jon’s father, even at the very start. And then there’s subtle clues all over the place. But Martin also does a great job in how and when and how often he sprinkles red herrings throughout. But R+L=J is w/o question the answer that best fits and the one that doesn’t require excruciating mental gymnastics. Again, IMO.

7 minutes ago, lehutin said:

In fairness to @The Green Bard, despite my dislike of the Order, I admit that they at least try to address your question. Why the secrecy? Because Ned and Ashara were actually married! dun dun dun Jon is the trueborn eldest son of Ned Stark and thus the rightful heir to Winterfell! Ned keeps it a secret to keep the peace with Cat and their children. 

Sure. But readers who support an alternative to R+L=J always try to offer explanations and answers to these questions; the problem is that none of these answers make much sense. 

7 minutes ago, lehutin said:

From what I can tell, this seems to be current fashion among the N+A=J holdout crowd: the secret N+A marriage explains the J parentage secrecy. Of course despite addressing your question, that opens up a new can of worms. So Ned Stark isn't a loving and honorable husband and father? He's actually a two-timing bigamist who scammed his eldest son out of his rightful inheritance? Huh, whodathought.

Yes, that “explanation” has been offered many, many times. And I find it beyond preposterous b/c it goes against everything we do know, both irt the story but also the characters in it. 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, the question “why the secrecy” is one of many that can’t be answered in a satisfactory manner. But IMO the fact that Ned never, not once, thinks about Ashara is as relevant. And there’s more, of course. From what I’ve seen over the years, the arguments against R+L=J come mostly from 3 groups: 

1) Targ fans who intensely dislike the Starks and/or Jon and can’t handle the fact that Jon is half Targ

2) Stark fans who dislike the Targs and can’t handle the fact that Jon is half Targ (this group is much smaller than group 1)

3) readers who find R+L=J too obvious and/or want to be the special snowflake who “figured it all out”. 

I'll add a number 4 to this.

There are those who absolutely want to see Jon the next wielder of Dawn. If he is AA and Dawn is in fact the real Lightbringer, then it has to end up in Jon's hands somehow. Being a Dayne through Ashara squares that circle.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'll add a number 4 to this.

There are those who absolutely want to see Jon the next wielder of Dawn. If he is AA and Dawn is in fact the real Lightbringer, then it has to end up in Jon's hands somehow. Being a Dayne through Ashara squares that circle.

Definitely! Forgot that one, cheers.

 

[Frey family reunion]

22 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

3) readers who find R+L=J too obvious and/or want to be the special snowflake who “figured it all out”. 

I suppose I'd be in the third group of your category, as someone who believes that Rhaegar and Lyanna is a bit too easy of a mystery to figure out.  But what's more, it is a bit too formulaic.  The hidden prince motif has been done to death in the fantasy genre.  Which is also why it's a fairly easy mystery to solve, at least for readers familiar with the fantasy genre. 

I don't know how much GRRM you've read outside of this series, but the author does tend to steer his stories in strange and unexpected directions.  Not always completely subverting the genre that he's working with, but often making it messier, darker, more convoluted, and sometimes more human (if that's the right word) than we're used to.  As George's own wife, Paris, allegedly stated, Rhaegar being Jon's father is too obvious and George doesn't do obvious.

It's also fairly fundamental in writing to try and stay true to a character's story arc.  George has spent five books establishing an internal conflict for Jon: Jon's duty to the Wall vs Jon's perception of his place in Winterfell.  For the author to steer Jon's arc to the Iron Throne, for example, does nothing to further Jon's internal conflict set up in the series, in fact it would distract from it.  

One only has to look to the abomination that was the HBO series to see how abrupt and clumsy a transition it was to set up a dance of dragons between Jon and Danaerys.  And speaking of abominations...

You raise a good point, that whatever the mystery, there has got to be a good reason for Ned to keep it a secret.  Because of this, I think there are only two possibilities for Jon's paternal lineage. 

One, obviously, being Rhaegar.  This is certainly the conclusion the author is trying to steer the reader towards.  The only question in my mind being, is he trying to steer us in the right direction or the wrong.  In my opinion, the only possibility other than Rhaegar that would require Ned to keep Jon's parentage a closely held secret is that Jon is the product of an incestuous relationship.  

The reason the latter possibility is intriguing to me is that it's the one parentage possibility that would add to Jon's internal struggle between his place in the Night's Watch vs his desire for Winterfell.  Being Rhaegar's son does nothing to further this internal conflict, but Jon being the son of Brandon Stark does.  

   

 

[The Map Guy]

31 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There are those who absolutely want to see Jon the next wielder of Dawn. If he is AA and Dawn is in fact the real Lightbringer, then it has to end up in Jon's hands somehow. Being a Dayne through Ashara squares that circle.

Unless Dawn can summon meteors to fall from the sky to fight the zombies and the Long Night, Jon "Dayne-Stark" wielding Dawn is nothing special.

Even Ned and his gang kicked Arthur's ass at TOJ.

The only recorded deed that Dawn has was fighting the Smiling Knight.

Even if Jon is the wielder of Dawn, he has Longclaw already. Will he double-wield Dawn and Longclaw fighting zombies?

He could do a helicopter type move like in the bloody scene from Kill Bill, but can he kill all of them by himself?? We'll get tired of reading it as he slashes and hacks through the entire chapter, fighting the horde with swords constantly swinging.

I trust George to be more creative than that.

59 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

3) readers who find R+L=J too obvious and/or want to be the special snowflake who “figured it all out”. 

Who you calling snowflake?????!?!!
 

Also guys, R+L=J is wrong. I think you guys mean J=R+L ... big difference

[The Commentator]

44 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I suppose I'd be in the third group of your category, as someone who believes that Rhaegar and Lyanna is a bit too easy of a mystery to figure out.  But what's more, it is a bit too formulaic.  The hidden prince motif has been done to death in the fantasy genre.  Which is also why it's a fairly easy mystery to solve, at least for readers familiar with the fantasy genre. 

I don't know how much GRRM you've read outside of this series, but the author does tend to steer his stories in strange and unexpected directions.  Not always completely subverting the genre that he's working with, but often making it messier, darker, more convulsed, and sometimes more human (if that's the right word) than we're used to.  As George's own wife, Paris, allegedly stated, Rhaegar being Jon's father is too obvious and George doesn't do obvious.

It's also fairly fundamental in writing to try and stay true to a character's story arc.  George has spent five books establishing an internal conflict for Jon: Jon's duty to the Wall vs Jon's perception of his place in Winterfell.  For the author to steer Jon's arc to the Iron Throne, for example, does nothing to further Jon's internal conflict set up in the series, in fact it would distract from it.  

One only has to look to the abomination that was the HBO series to see how abrupt and clumsy a transition it was to set up a dance of dragons between Jon and Danaerys.  And speaking of abominations...

You raise a good point, that whatever the mystery, there has got to be a good reason for Ned to keep it a secret.  Because of this, I think there are only two possibilities for Jon's paternal lineage. 

One, obviously, being Rhaegar.  This is certainly the conclusion the author is trying to steer the reader towards.  The only question in my mind being, is he trying to steer us in the right direction or the wrong.  In my opinion, the only possibility other than Rhaegar that would require Ned to keep Jon's parentage a closely held secret is that Jon is the product of an incestuous relationship.  

The reason the latter possibility is intriguing to me is that it's the one parentage possibility that would add to Jon's internal struggle between his place in the Night's Watch vs his desire for Winterfell.  Being Rhaegar's son does nothing to further this internal conflict, but Jon being the son of Brandon Stark does.  

   

 

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow is my favorite and the one I hope for.  More drama.  The most likely, in my opinion, is Mance Raider + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow.  Either way, the need for secrecy is established.  

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I suppose I'd be in the third group of your category, as someone who believes that Rhaegar and Lyanna is a bit too easy of a mystery to figure out.  But what's more, it is a bit too formulaic.  The hidden prince motif has been done to death in the fantasy genre.  Which is also why it's a fairly easy mystery to solve, at least for readers familiar with the fantasy genre. 

I don’t really agree w/ the notion that R+L=J is truly that easy to figure out. How many readers have said that they didn’t pick up on it at first, or even on rereads? A whole bunch, and I’m only talking about readers posting here, and I’d argue that we are the minority. How many members do we have here? (I have no idea) and how many people have read the books? Most readers don’t go online to discuss books. For instance, I have many friends irl who have read the books. Not a single one has joined the forum, but more importantly not a single one came up w/ R+L=J. Just my 2p worth. 

Quote

I don't know how much GRRM you've read outside of this series, but the author does tend to steer his stories in strange and unexpected directions.  Not always completely subverting the genre that he's working with, but often making it messier, darker, more convulsed, and sometimes more human (if that's the right word) than we're used to. 

I’ve read quite a few, some a long time ago. I keep meaning to do a comprehensive reread of all/most but I need a holiday before I can even think of doing that.

And while I agree Martin isn’t too keen on very obvious stuff, I don’t think R+L=J is that obvious. 

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As George's own wife, Paris, allegedly stated, Rhaegar being Jon's father is too obvious and George doesn't do obvious.

Yes, I am aware of that comment. It was posted here, ages ago when I was still a lurker. I don’t really think much of it, tbh. For instance, a while back I saw Parris had as her background pic (I think it was as her background pic) an image that spelled out R+L=J, but in images: a harp w/ a dragon’s head + a blue winter rose = a white wolf w/ red eyes. I actually saved it and use it now as my bg image. You can see it here. 

Quote

It's also fairly fundamental in writing to try and stay true to a character's story arc.  George has spent five books establishing an internal conflict for Jon: Jon's duty to the Wall vs Jon's perception of his place in Winterfell.  For the author to steer Jon's arc to the Iron Throne, for example, does nothing to further Jon's internal conflict set up in the series, in fact it would distract from it.  

Does it really, though? I don’t think it does... if Jon believed all his life he was a bastard and thus had no rights (compared to his half-siblings/cousins) and suddenly learns not only he’s not a bastard but the rightful heir to the throne and this jeopardises his Stark-ness... Meaning, he’s not a reviled bastard, but a king. But in order to take on this new role he must reject all that he loves, all that he is. Which is why I don’t think he will. And also why I don’t see him becoming Aegon N, or Jon Targaryen but rather embracing who he is, Jon Snow, King of Winter. I don’t know, but seems like an interesting conflict to me, and one that takes the hidden prince trope and turns it on its head, only it does so in an unexpected way. 

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One only has to look to the abomination that was the HBO series to see how abrupt and clumsy a transition it was to set up a dance of dragons between Jon and Danaerys.  And speaking of abominations...

The abomination failed because it was abominable in every single respect. Jon’s parentage? Nothing. Night King? Nothing. Jon’s resurrection? Nothing. Magic? Nothing. Direwolves and dragons? Nothing. The “credit” for that mess has nothing to do w/ Martin and his story. 

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You raise a good point, that whatever the mystery, there has got to be a good reason for Ned to keep it a secret.  Because of this, I think there are only two possibilities for Jon's paternal lineage. 

One, obviously, being Rhaegar.  This is certainly the conclusion the author is trying to steer the reader towards.  The only question in my mind being, is he trying to steer us in the right direction or the wrong.  In my opinion, the only possibility other than Rhaegar that would require Ned to keep Jon's parentage a closely held secret is that Jon is the product of an incestuous relationship.  

The reason the latter possibility is intriguing to me is that it's the one parentage possibility that would add to Jon's internal struggle between his place in the Night's Watch vs his desire for Winterfell.  Being Rhaegar's son does nothing to further this internal conflict, but Jon being the son of Brandon Stark does.  

We will have to agree to disagree. There is nothing, nada, zero in the text that supports this idea. I know that Martin isn’t too keen on obvious, but he’s even less keen on asspulls. As a matter of fact, I can’t think of a single one. Then there’s also the fact that the timeline doesn’t work IMO.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

54 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

The only recorded deed that Dawn has was fighting the Smiling Knight.

Dawn was used in battle at the Redgrass Field. I imagine we will find out more about that in FaB v.2.

[Therae]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t really agree w/ the notion that R+L=J is truly that easy to figure out. How many readers have said that they didn’t pick up on it at first, or even on rereads? A whole bunch, and I’m only talking about readers posting here, and I’d argue that we are the minority. How many members do we have here? (I have no idea) and how many people have read the books? Most readers don’t go online to discuss books. For instance, I have many friends irl who have read the books. Not a single one has joined the forum, but more importantly not a single one came up w/ R+L=J. Just my 2p worth. 

I’ve read quite a few, some a long time ago. I keep meaning to do a comprehensive reread of all/most but I need a holiday before I can even think of doing that.

And while I agree Martin isn’t too keen on very obvious stuff, I don’t think R+L=J is that obvious. 

Yes, I am aware of that comment. It was posted here, ages ago when I was still a lurker. I don’t really think much of it, tbh. For instance, a while back I saw Parris had as her background pic (I think it was as her background pic) an image that spelled out R+L=J, but in images: a harp w/ a dragon’s head + a blue winter rose = a white wolf w/ red eyes. I actually saved it and use it now as my bg image. You can see it here. 

Does it really, though? I don’t think it does... if Jon believed all his life he was a bastard and thus had no rights (compared to his half-siblings/cousins) and suddenly learns not only he’s not a bastard but the rightful heir to the throne and this jeopardises his Stark-ness... Meaning, he’s not a reviled bastard, but a king. But in order to take on this new role he must reject all that he loves, all that he is. Which is why I don’t think he will. And also why I don’t see him becoming Aegon N, or Jon Targaryen but rather embracing who he is, Jon Snow, King of Winter. I don’t know, but seems like an interesting conflict to me, and one that takes the hidden prince trope and turns it on its head, only it does so in an unexpected way. 

The abomination failed because it was abominable in every single respect. Jon’s parentage? Nothing. Night King? Nothing. Jon’s resurrection? Nothing. Magic? Nothing. Direwolves and dragons? Nothing. The “credit” for that mess has nothing to do w/ Martin and his story. 

We will have to agree to disagree. There is nothing, nada, zero in the text that supports this idea. I know that Martin isn’t too keen on obvious, but he’s even less keen on asspulls. As a matter of fact, I can’t think of a single one. Then there’s also the fact that the timeline doesn’t work IMO.

Also I would go further and suggest, as have many others ( @Ygrain in particular) that the subversion in this case isn't that Jon is the hidden prince, but that the hidden prince won't end up on the Iron Throne, ruling happily ever after. And everyone who rejects the idea of R+L because it's a standard-issue love story seems to overlook the part where they both die horribly and far from each other.

If Ashara=Lemore (which I don't think, because Tyrion failing to notice purple eyes is a blatant literary cheat; you can't give someone a feature that striking, make a big deal about it, and then have one of your most observant characters ignore it to hide her identity from the readers), then I suppose there's no reason she even had to pretend to jump from the Tower. As far as I know, we haven't been told why anyone actually believes she jumped, so as long as it doesn't turn out someone saw her do it, she could have snuck out at any time and made her way to wherever she spent the time until YG was handed off to JonCon (this is also problematic; what did she do in the meantime?)

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Does it really, though? I don’t think it does... if Jon believed all his life he was a bastard and thus had no rights (compared to his half-siblings/cousins) and suddenly learns not only he’s not a bastard but the rightful heir to the throne and this jeopardises his Stark-ness... Meaning, he’s not a reviled bastard, but a king. But in order to take on this new role he must reject all that he loves, all that he is. Which is why I don’t think he will. And also why I don’t see him becoming Aegon N, or Jon Targaryen but rather embracing who he is, Jon Snow, King of Winter. I don’t know, but seems like an interesting conflict to me, and one that takes the hidden prince trope and turns it on its head, only it does so in an unexpected way. 

But the problem isn't that Jon's conflict revolves only around his umm, bastardness, bastardry (not sure of the word).  The conflict specifically revolves around Jon's oath and his desire for Winterfell.  Not the Iron Throne or any other claim to power but to Winterfell itself.  This is the fruit that he's been told he isn't deserving of.  This is the specific source of conflict between him and Catelyn.  

Martin has continued this conflict through the fifth book, where Jon goes into a berserker rage when he recalls the time that Robb told him that he could never be the Lord of Winterfell.  

Jon's dreams specifically put him in the crypts of Winterfell.  The crypts where Jon's dark secret may be buried, the tombs of Lyanna and Brandon.

From a story perspective, making Jon Rhaegar's son doesn't continue this storyline.  And that's the biggest issue.

Winterfell is also his most likely next destination assuming that he survives the events of the last book (or alternatively is resurrected from the events of the last book).  The fact that we only have two books left to go leaves it increasingly unlikely that Jon's story arc is going to have time to develop this much of a change in direction.

And that's the source of my suspicion.  George has certainly teased that Rhaegar is the father of Jon, there is no doubt about that.  But George hasn't laid a foundation within Jon's story arc for this to pay off.

And let's not forget the source of conflict between Ned and Catelyn either.  This conflict regarding Jon has more to do with Ned having cheated on Catelyn.  This conflict specifically stems from Catelyn's fear of Jon stealing her children's inheritance.

And once again, this conflict/story line becomes more poignant if it turns out that Jon in fact is Brandon's son.  The reason that Ned had to keep this secret from Catelyn specifically is to protect her from this truth, a truth that would have a bigger impact on her than anyone else other than Jon.

And George's MO is usually to concentrate on the human elements of the story as opposed to any overarching plot.  Jon's dark desire is Winterfell.  Only one parentage reveal would add to this aspect of Jon's story arc as opposed to subtract from it.

[kissdbyfire]

@Frey family reunion, I’m trying to cook dinner so will reply in a bit. But in the meantime, how would you explain the timeline for B+L=J? 

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Frey family reunion, I’m trying to cook dinner so will reply in a bit. But in the meantime, how would you explain the timeline for B+L=J? 

Simple Jon was born sometime before the Battle of the Trident.

[Lady Anna]

2 hours ago, Therae said:

Also I would go further and suggest, as have many others ( @Ygrain in particular) that the subversion in this case isn't that Jon is the hidden prince, but that the hidden prince won't end up on the Iron Throne, ruling happily ever after. And everyone who rejects the idea of R+L because it's a standard-issue love story seems to overlook the part where they both die horribly and far from each other.

Exactly. I don't think it's so much about who his parents were (R+L) but what will happen with that information, In other words, R+L= Jon may be obvious (agree to some extent although it doesn't bother me, it makes sense, it's coherent), but the story doesn't end there. The characters aren't  even aware of it yet, but once they are, what will happen? What does it mean? And that's the interesting thing about it.

[lehutin]

3 hours ago, Therae said:

which I don't think, because Tyrion failing to notice purple eyes is a blatant literary cheat; you can't give someone a feature that striking, make a big deal about it, and then have one of your most observant characters ignore it to hide her identity from the readers

I fully agree with this, and it's why I'm very skeptical that Ashara is Lemore. Now, one could say that Tyrion didn't notice "Ashara=Lemore"'s purple eyes because he was staring at her body the whole time.

 

However, in Tyrion VI (ADWD), we have this:

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Lemore had changed out of her septa’s robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really?

At that point, Tyrion was no longer being a horny pervert. He was actively trying to figure out whether Lemore might've been someone else like Griff and Young Griff. So I agree that it would be a literary cheat for Tyrion to fail to notice purple eyes, which are repeatedly stated to be one of Ashara's most striking and defining features.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, lehutin said:

Tyrion was no longer being a horny pervert.

Wut? When did that happen? I surely missed it... 

[The Map Guy]

11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Dawn was used in battle at the Redgrass Field. I imagine we will find out more about that in FaB v.2.

I said "recorded deeds." Unless I missed it, where was Dawn mentioned in this battle?

Anyways I'm going to borrow a bit of your Septa Lemore = Elia Martell theory and spin it to:
(f)Aegon is the son of Septa Lemore, who has convinced Young Griff that she is Elia Martell and he is Aegon Targaryen, and that they were rescued from the Sack of Kings Landing.

BUT Lemore is lying and she is not actually Elia Martell. IIyrio approached (f)Elia one day and offered this mummer's role, in exchange for her son to be King of Westeros. Sounds like a good deal.

(f)Aegon dies in battle, but Arianne eventually meets Septa Lemore and she claims to be her aunt (f)Elia Martell. She asks Arianne to escort her to Dorne for safety. Arianne complies, but when Doran finally meets (f)Elia the (f)sister ... hes like "who the hell are you?"

TWOW Spoilers

Spoiler

This sounds like Jeyne Poole continuing to lie to Stannis that she is (f)Arya, so she could be escorted to Castle Black safely. Of course, Jon Snow expects Arya to arrive at the Wall, but when he sees (f)Arya the (f)sister ... he'll be like "who the hell are you?"

... just a mini theory ... Septa leMore = (f)Elia Martell

Besides, what is the point of Ashara = Septa Lemore after (f)Aegon gets his head smashed in battle (again).

And didn't Jon Con danced with Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal? Wouldn't Ashara = Septa Lemore be obvious to Jon Con in his thoughts?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Never mind.

[Frey family reunion]

54 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's mentioned in The Sworn Sword if you read it. 

No, the battle (mentioned) in Sworn Sword was between Gwayne Corbray and Daemon Blackfyre.  It was Lady Forlorn vs Blackfyre

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, the battle in Sworn Sword was between Gwayne Corbray and Daemon Blackfyre.  It was Lady Forlorn vs Blackfyre

I've just gone over the passage with the mention of Dawn and yes, it is not specifically mentioned as being at the Redgrass Field.

I stand corrected.

[Frey family reunion]

I think regarding Septa Lemore, we need to look at the revolutionaries in the stories, specifically those revolutionaries that have training to be a Septa.

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Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight and slaying the former.

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It was a long day’s ride, but as dusk was settling they forded a brook and came up on Acorn Hall, with its stone curtain walls and great oaken keep. Its master was away fighting in the retinue of his master, Lord Vance, the castle gates closed and barred in his absence. But his lady wife was an old friend of Tom Sevenstrings, and Anguy said they’d once been lovers.

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-THEOMAR SMALLWOOD, Lord of Acorn Hall,

-his wife, LADY RAVELLA, of House Swann

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“My great-aunt is a septa at a motherhouse in Oldtown,”  Lady Smallwood said as the women laced the gown up Arya’s back.  “I sent my daughter there when the war began.”

ETA: I think there is a possibility that Lady Jeyne Swann didn’t really need to be rescued from the Kingswood Brotherhood.  

ETA again: and whatever exactly happened to Lady Jeyne Swann?