How were the Targaryens viewed in universe, in westeros and essos ?

[Shi Qiang]

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

They certainly weren't going to follow Viserys but that isn't the point. 

Viserys wasn't promised the whole khalasar, just some. 

The point is, the poster quoted said Drogo promised to cross the poisined waters for Danys hand in marriage - that's what we are pointing out isn't true. 

Viserys agreed to the marriage in exchange for Khal Drogo's help in taking back his kingdom from the usurper.  Khal Drogo's help can only be in military terms.  It was a formal exchange of gifts where both men are fully expected to honor.  So yeah, Drogo knew by marrying the Princess, what his obligations to the king of Westeros would be, military force to take the throne from Robert.  Now, unless they were gonna teleport themselves to Westeros, yeah, the Dothraki will cross the seas. 

[Shi Qiang]

On 2/22/2020 at 10:30 PM, Mario Seddy said:

How were the Targaryens viewed in universe, in westeros and essos? 

House Targaryen is the most famous family in the world.  They are held in high esteem for their achievements and their family line.  They are the heirs to the lands which once belonged to the Freehold as well as the continent of Westeros.  The calendar is measured from the time Aegon landed.  The most valuable currency is the Golden Dragon.  They built the capital city of King's Landing.  Yeah, I'd say they are the greatest family to have ever come along on Earthos. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

Viserys agreed to the marriage in exchange for Khal Drogo's help in taking back his kingdom from the usurper.  Khal Drogo's help can only be in military terms.  It was a formal exchange of gifts where both men are fully expected to honor.  So yeah, Drogo knew by marrying the Princess, what his obligations to the king of Westeros would be, military force to take the throne from Robert.  Now, unless they were gonna teleport themselves to Westeros, yeah, the Dothraki will cross the seas. 

I'm fairly certain (I still haven't looked for more quotes, but will tomorrow) that the deal was an army in exchange for Danys hand. Drogo had no intention of going with the army he gave Viserys - who would lead the rest of his khalasar? 

My contention isn't that Dothraki weren't going to cross the poison waters, but that is not what Drogo agreed to in return for the marriage. Drogo had no intention whatsoever in crossing them. He was to give Viserys an army, knowing full right & well that not only would this army NOT follow Viserys but that they most certainly wouldn't obey his command to cross the poison waters, so I don't think there was any real fear even the Dothraki given to Viserys were going to Westeros, but certainly Drogo wasn't. 

So, yeah Drogo's end of the deal was to offer military support for whatever Viserys could/wanted to do with them & he very likely knew what Viserys intended to do - no dispute there. The dispute is that Drogo took Dany's hand & promised to go to Westeros in return. 

 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 2/22/2020 at 11:46 PM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Mostly with admiration, envy, respect, and awe.  The Targaryens accomplished more than any family ever has.  If any House can be called Great, it is the Targaryens.  

Fear too.  Theirs is a feudal system and one cannot stay at the top without those bellow having a healthy dose of fear.  I would add affection.  House Darry had affection for the Targaryens.  Houses Goodbrooke and Thorne stayed loyal to the Targs.  They are seen by the masses as standing apart from the other houses of nobility.  The exception to the rule and having the right to rule.  Robert, for those reasons, despite his hate for the Targaryens, used his connection to the family to justify his right to the throne.  The Targaryens are basically at the top of the pyramid.  All the other houses stand beneath the dragons.

 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

20 hours ago, Allardyce said:

House Targaryen is the most famous family in the world.  They are held in high esteem for their achievements and their family line.  They are the heirs to the lands which once belonged to the Freehold as well as the continent of Westeros.  The calendar is measured from the time Aegon landed.  The most valuable currency is the Golden Dragon.  They built the capital city of King's Landing.  Yeah, I'd say they are the greatest family to have ever come along on Earthos. 

Prestige, for the lack of a better word.  They have more prestige than any other family.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 2/28/2020 at 1:14 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm pretty sure it was an army not a crown. I think it's highly implied Viserys was going to go on by himself with the army he is given. 

The khal has promised you a crown, and you shall have it."

"I was promised a crown, and I mean to have it"

And of course, Drogo finally honours his promise to Viserys by giving him a crown made of molten gold.

In fairness, there is this: "He will go as soon as he has his ten thousand. My lord husband promised a golden crown" which was said after Viserys said he'd only need 10,000 screamers, but I think the actual promise was a crown. I guess it depends on how Drogo interpreted it, which I don't think is made clear.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:13 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Viewed well enough that Drogo's willing to marry Daenerys.

10,000 doesn't seem to be enough to sweep the Seven Kingdoms. Rhaegar had 40,000 men who didn't have to hurl their guts across seawater and they got trounced by a 35,000 strong force.

I guess he was also banking on Dorne and some other Targ loyalists to support his claim too. Then again, nobody ever said Viserys was a great (or even decent) military strategist lol

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The khal has promised you a crown, and you shall have it."

"I was promised a crown, and I mean to have it"

And of course, Drogo finally honours his promise to Viserys by giving him a crown made of molten gold.

In fairness, there is this: "He will go as soon as he has his ten thousand. My lord husband promised a golden crown" which was said after Viserys said he'd only need 10,000 screamers, but I think the actual promise was a crown. I guess it depends on how Drogo interpreted it, which I don't think is made clear.

Fair enough, I suppose it isn't made clear. 

There's two reasons I don't think Drogo promised to cross the poison waters himself; he would need to either take his whole khalasar - which isn't part of the promise, only 10,000 men or leave a large portion of them behind - which would equal losing control over them. Also, because when Dany wants him to go to Westeros he repeatedly refuses on the grounds that the world stops at the poison waters. He refuses repeatedly, something that would be odd to do if he had intended on crossing them with Viserys. 

I read it like Viserys was promised the army to get his crown & then they are used interchangeably. 

I've often wondered what exactly Drogo did promise, or if he promised anything. Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't hear him admit he promised him anything do we? I don't recall him talking about an army or a crown until he does crown Viserys. Even then I don't think he mentions having promised it to him. Could this have been some ploy of Illyrios? 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Fair enough, I suppose it isn't made clear. 

There's two reasons I don't think Drogo promised to cross the poison waters himself; he would need to either take his whole khalasar - which isn't part of the promise, only 10,000 men or leave a large portion of them behind - which would equal losing control over them. Also, because when Dany wants him to go to Westeros he repeatedly refuses on the grounds that the world stops at the poison waters. He refuses repeatedly, something that would be odd to do if he had intended on crossing them with Viserys.  

I read it like Viserys was promised the army to get his crown & then they are used interchangeably. 

I've often wondered what exactly Drogo did promise, or if he promised anything. Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't hear him admit he promised him anything do we? I don't recall him talking about an army or a crown until he does crown Viserys. Even then I don't think he mentions having promised it to him. Could this have been some ploy of Illyrios? 

 

But he'd be losing control of the men he'd hand over to Viserys too, no? I dunno. Viserys mused he'd only need 10,000 well after the marriage, so there obviously wasn't any clear cut deal made. I think Viserys' intentions to reclaim his seat must have been made obvious though, because "promised a crown" keeps being brought up (also because it would have been common knowledge). They must have gone into the arrangement knowing helping Viserys with this goal was expected, just as military alliances would be expected of any arranged marriage.

"the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio told him, but your brother does not listen. The horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal."

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

But he'd be losing control of the men he'd hand over to Viserys too, no? I dunno

Yeah but a smaller amount than what remained & if he was giving 10,000 to Viserys & planned to go with them to Westeros he is effectively losing his whole khalasar - the ones he leaves behind & the ones he gave to Viserys. 

4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Viserys mused he'd only need 10,000 well after the marriage, so there obviously wasn't any clear cut deal made

He actually mused before the wedding but he doesn't say he was promised 10,000 he says he could win Westeros with 10,000. That quote I put up thread was from before the wedding. 

4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think Viserys' intentions to reclaim his seat must have been made obvious though, because "promised a crown" keeps being brought up (also because it would have been common knowledge)

Yeah, I might be reading too far into it but Viserys doesn't speak Dothraki & no one who does mentions giving Viserys anything. Anyone who could speak the common tongue would clearly know what Viserys expected because he never shuts up about it but Drogo doesn't speak the common tongue. 

4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

They must have gone into the arrangement knowing helping Viserys with this goal was expected, just as military alliances would be expected of any arranged marriage.

We don't know much about what Dothraki marriages entail though. A military alliance would be expected from a marriage in Westeros but not necessarily from the Dothraki. 

It's definitely not out of the realm of possibility though, like I said, maybe I'm just reading too much into it. 

4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio told him, but your brother does not listen. The horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal.

Right so I would be curious to know if it is custom for the other party to name their 'gift' or if it is at the khals discretion. He certainly was in to hurry to pay his gift & to him it very well may have appeared that he made this 'deal' with Illyrio & therefore owed him this gift. 

Sorry - I'm derailing the thread. Maybe I'll make a new one to discuss this stuff. 

[Ser Uncle P]

On 2/28/2020 at 1:47 AM, Allardyce said:

House Targaryen is the most famous family in the world.  They are held in high esteem for their achievements and their family line.  They are the heirs to the lands which once belonged to the Freehold as well as the continent of Westeros.  The calendar is measured from the time Aegon landed.  The most valuable currency is the Golden Dragon.  They built the capital city of King's Landing.  Yeah, I'd say they are the greatest family to have ever come along on Earthos. 

In Fire and Blood, a Braavosi banker tells Septon Barth "Your Targaryen kings are Valyrian to the bone" (can't find my copy to quote it exact)

 

For a Braavosi this meant the Targaryens are not to be trusted. I'd say the Rhoynish pedigree in Dorne's rulers would have concurred. 

Equally I'd say the Essosi who didn't have bad blood with the Freehold would have viewed the Targaryens with a degree of awe, especially when their dragons still lived. 

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He certainly was in to hurry to pay his gift

(That was a typo?)

He was in no hurry, but that’s because he followed the omens. The man had a time table.

.

 

"How long must we linger amidst these ruins before Drogo gives me my army? I grow tired of waiting."

"The princess must be presented to the dosh khaleen …"

"The crones, yes," her brother interrupted, "and there's to be some mummer's show of a prophecy for the whelp in her belly, you told me.

.

Viserys of course fucked all that up.

Although it became painfully clear that he is not the khallasars champion. That’s his nephew, the stallion who mounts the world.

Viserys thought he was meant to be king. Not his nephew. That wasn’t the plan. 

.

 

"Which plan?" said Tristan Rivers. "The fat man's plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back.

.

God damn nephews.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah but a smaller amount than what remained & if he was giving 10,000 to Viserys & planned to go with them to Westeros he is effectively losing his whole khalasar - the ones he leaves behind & the ones he gave to Viserys. 

So, 50k the GC was told, not 10k. I suppose Drogo would lose some of his army, but hed be in it for the long haul. Hed be like, the head of the vanguard in every battle, brother in law to the king, or father of the king, or uncle of the king lol

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

it very well may have appeared that he made this 'deal' with Illyrio & therefore owed him this gift. 

Thats a possibility. It was his arrangement, his venue. And we know he was scheming with the GC behind Viserys back

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

That was a typo?

No not a typo. I know he was operating under his own timeline, I only meant the time line was laid out by other people. As in, maybe it wasn't Drogo's timeline at all & he had no intention of giving Viserys anything. 

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, 50k the GC was told, not 10k. I suppose Drogo would lose some of his army, but hed be in it for the long haul. Hed be like, the head of the vanguard in every battle, brother in law to the king, or father of the king, or uncle of the king lol

The GC were told Viserys was to receive 50,000 Dothraki screamers? I don't remember that. 

The thing is though I don't think Drogo was in it for the long haul. I think if the deal was an army, both Viserys & Drogo understood that to mean Viserys would take the army & go. The reason I think this is because Drogo acts as if crossing the poison waters is an absurd suggestion when Daenerys is trying to talk him into it. If he had intended on going across them with Viserys it doesn't make any sense to be so weirded out by it when Dany is saying it. 

24 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats a possibility. It was his arrangement, his venue. And we know he was scheming with the GC behind Viserys back

Yeah for sure. I might just be reading too much into it though. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 The GC were told Viserys was to receive 50,000 Dothraki screamers? I don't remember that. 

Thats what I said  

Quote

"The first Aegon took Westeros without eunuchs," said Lysono Maar. "Why shouldn't the sixth Aegon do the same?"

"The plan—"

"Which plan?" said Tristan Rivers. "The fat man's plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver's Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well.

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No not a typo. I know he was operating under his own timeline, I only meant the time line was laid out by other people. As in, maybe it wasn't Drogo's timeline at all & he had no intention of giving Viserys anything. 

Idk, it seems Drogo understood he owed something. Perhaps riding with him changed his mind, I doubt it, although he was treated very harshly. If Viserys stayed in Pentos though, Im pretty confident Drogo would have given Viserys an army

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The thing is though I don't think Drogo was in it for the long haul. I think if the deal was an army, both Viserys & Drogo understood that to mean Viserys would take the army & go. The reason I think this is because Drogo acts as if crossing the poison waters is an absurd suggestion when Daenerys is trying to talk him into it. If he had intended on going across them with Viserys it doesn't make any sense to be so weirded out by it when Dany is saying it. 

Well when Dany was pestering Drogo he no longer could pay Viserys' debt, having killed him. Eventually when Dany gets attacked Drogo stops being weirded out

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. I might just be reading too much into it though. 

Maybe, but maybe not. Illyrio wants Young Griff on the throne, not Viserys. I dont think it's an outlandish theory, although as we said, Drogo wasnt really feeling the invasion after Viserys died

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 2/22/2020 at 11:46 PM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Mostly with admiration, envy, respect, and awe.  The Targaryens accomplished more than any family ever has.  If any House can be called Great, it is the Targaryens.  

I would agree.  They rank high above the rest of the families.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats what I said  

Got it. It's not clear what was promised. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, it seems Drogo understood he owed something. Perhaps riding with him changed his mind, I doubt it, although he was treated very harshly. If Viserys stayed in Pentos though, Im pretty confident Drogo would have given Viserys an army

Is it though? I don't know if it does seem like Drogo understood he owed him something. 

I don't think Drogo gives any indication of it. Of course that could be just because it's understood so George didn't feel the need to have Drogo state it. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well when Dany was pestering Drogo he no longer could pay Viserys' debt, having killed him. Eventually when Dany gets attacked Drogo stops being weirded out

Right but I'm saying if Drogo had already agreed to cross the poison waters with Viserys wouldn't he refuse Dany on some other grounds than not wanting to or being able to cross them? If he had already agreed to cross them once it doesn't make much sense for Dany to have to start at square one when trying to convince him. Come to think of it it's a little much to think Drogo agreed to do what no other Dothraki has ever done seems an awfully steep price to pay for a marriage to someone who isn't really bringing anything to the marriage. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Maybe, but maybe not. Illyrio wants Young Griff on the throne, not Viserys. I dont think it's an outlandish theory, although as we said, Drogo wasnt really feeling the invasion after Viserys died

Yeah, I don't think Drogo was feeling the invasion when Viserys was alive. I think he the gift was to be an army, not with Drogo at the head of it.  

[Big P]

On 2/27/2020 at 6:09 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

It's implied. I mean, Drogo's khalasar aren't going to follow anyone but him.

Unless he was going to hire mercenaries but that is not standard operating procedures for the Dothraki.  

[Rose of Red Lake]

Similar to how natives viewed European powers in the 17th century. Enslaving people in mines to maintain imperialist expansion - that's Europe colonizing Africa and South America. A military technology that makes everyone they encounter a "primitive" in comparison - that's also Europe vs. the people they conquered. Targaryens treated Westeros more like a cluster of colonies to be subdued and to extract fealty from like the Valyrians did to Essos. As with most empires people were often questioning their subordination to a distant power, especially when that power started to wane. Other times they wanted that power for themselves but didn't necessarily want to be Targaryens. 

[SeanF]

I imagine the Volantenes would have hated them, given that Aegon sided with their enemies.  As the Old Blood regard themselves as heirs to the dragonlords, they would probably view Aegon as a traitor (they have separate reasons for hating Daenerys).  

In Westeros, well obviously the Faith Militant hated them.  After that, they seem to have been popular enough, on the whole.  As at 300 AC, I imagine they remain well regarded in Kings Landing, the Crownlands, Dorne, and parts of the Reach. 

[Annalee]

On 2/24/2020 at 8:30 AM, The Young Maester said:

No doubt Targaryen was a respected name throughout both Essos and Westeros. The heirs of valyria you can call them. 

Still is. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 2/26/2020 at 8:57 PM, Centurion Piso said:

And they have history on their side.  Three hundred years of unbroken rule, good looks, and dragons, they were seen as special by the people of Westeros.  The Targaryens held the kingdom together for centuries and the Baratheons can't even carry out a successful transfer of power after the first king in their family dies.  The Baratheons look like incompetent fools in comparison to the Targaryens.  

Absolutely true.   One Baratheon reign and Westeros went from having a full treasury to being heavily in debt.