Which of Baratheon brothers you respect the most

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

3 hours ago, frenin said:

That's treason, don't say treasonous words to me Ser.

Sorry but this sums up my feelings on Davos:

https://seriousjones.tumblr.com/post/109067869920/why-are-you-so-mean-to-davos

It's treason then... In the name of the One True King of Westeros you are under arrest.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Have we read the same book. Stannis loved the old man, and wanted to keep him safe at all times. Also Saying that Mel killed him is a bit of stretch given that he willingly drank his own poison.

I wanted to say Penrose, but yes. Stannis incredible emotions about the death of someone he considered a father are telling.

Now, Meli had nothing to do with his death right??

 

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Now obviously there is the weir shadow baby magic here. It's also clear as you say that Stannis in his sleep saw the murder take place, and that's why he couldn't be woken up. However I don't think he willingly navigated the shadow baby to do the thing. It was more probably under Mel's control (for Pete's sake she's the witch and the one with the supernatural powers). The only way Stannis was involved in the whole endeavor was in ,,fathering" the shadow baby, he didn't play an active part in the deed, though as you say he probably did witness the whole thing through the shadow baby's POV. Mel was the one controlling the shadow, and as such she is the one that killed Stannis. Stannis neither did the thing nor gave the order, so I can't see how he could be considered a murderer.

He didn't do it willingly(i want to believe), he did it unwilligly but he's a kinslayer all the same, Srannis was the shadow.  And later he doubled down the bet by killing Penrose the exact same way. 

[Putin]

13 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

 

 

Stannis is a kinslayer, hypocrite, selfserving, selfish prick, that burns people alive, that needs to eat more humble pies than the rest of the characters in the book combined... he is a bad father, a bad husband and a worse man.

 

Well he is a kinslayer that is just a fact, and the fact that he mourns Renly is pointless because he was willing to sacrifice Edric Storm.

 

1. If Stannis is selfserving and selfish same goes for Renly and Robert.They can be put in same basket here.

Renly only cared about himself and wanted throne for himself despite not having any right to it. Robert was selfish , man who only cared for himself , didn´t give a sh1t about kingdoom, and as Littlefinger said he was willing to close his eyes to thing he would rather not see.

2. About burning people alive . Each man Stannis burned was punishment , death sentence. Followers of red god burn people as punishment, Greyjoys drown them , in Meereen they crucify them, others cut their head. No difference here just different way of penalty execution.

3 . Bad Father, bad husband. If you say this for Stannis then you can´t ignore Robert and Renly ,again they are the same. Robert doesn´t care about his children or wife , he constantly whores himself which showes zero respect he has for them and he does this openly and even admits that, not even tries to hide. Renly was bad husband considering he was doing his wife´s brother .

4. Yes Stannis was willing to kill innocent but there are 2 points about this :

A) He firstly refused to sacrifice the boy despite Mel request. Later after he saw effect of his blood he still is not willing. In the end he asks Mel 

 “You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie. "

They are not even talking about wining the throne anymore but about battle against others :

 

" if I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."

Its clear sacrifice is last resort , he wants to save millions from the dark.

b) Renly and Robert are willing to kill the innocent . During small council meeting both were perfectly fine with killing Dany , 13 years old innocent  girl whose only crime was having Targaryen name. Renly was willing to kill Stannis too which would make him kinslayer too. 

So pretty much everything you said about Stannis goes for Robert and Renly too.

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For what it's worth, I don't think it was nepotism that Stannis appointed Davos as hand. Quite the opposite. He appointed him as Hand because he was the best for the job despite his low birth. 

King himself has freedom to chose his hand. Stannis like Tywin , Eddard is perfectly capable of running kingdom unlike Robert , Joffrey and so. What Stannis requires is man who like himself will tell him only harsh truth, and that man is Davos , other will just flatter him and tell him things he likes to hear .

"Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. "

[frenin]

27 minutes ago, Putin said:

. If Stannis is selfserving and selfish same goes for Renly and Robert.They can be put in same basket here.

Renly only cared about himself and wanted throne for himself despite not having any right to it. Robert was selfish , man who only cared for himself , didn´t give a sh1t about kingdoom, and as Littlefinger said he was willing to close his eyes to thing he would rather not see.

Yes, they are.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Putin said:

. About burning people alive . Each man Stannis burned was punishment , death sentence. Followers of red god burn people as punishment, Greyjoys drown them , in Meereen they crucify them, others cut their head. No difference here just different way of penalty execution.

What would you rather?? Burning someone alive is a extreme cruel way of killing someone.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Putin said:

Bad Father, bad husband. If you say this for Stannis then you can´t ignore Robert and Renly ,again they are the same. Robert doesn´t care about his children or wife , he constantly whores himself which showes zero respect he has for them and he does this openly and even admits that, not even tries to hide. Renly was bad husband considering he was doing his wife´s brother .

Ofc Robert was a terrible hubby and father.

And for Renly well... The man was gay you know, there is some leeway there.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Putin said:

) He firstly refused to sacrifice the boy despite Mel request. Later after he saw effect of his blood he still is not willing. In the end he asks Mel 

 “You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie. "

They are not even talking about wining the throne anymore but about battle against others :

They are talking about winning the Throne. Stannis says so to Davos. " Do you think people would've called  Aegon, the Conqueror, if he had no dragons". Burning your nephew to get a Throne is just awful.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Putin said:

b) Renly and Robert are willing to kill the innocent . During small council meeting both were perfectly fine with killing Dany , 13 years old innocent  girl whose only crime was having Targaryen name. Renly was willing to kill Stannis too which would make him kinslayer too. 

Dany, last time i read the books, wasn't Renly and Robert's niece. 

And they wanted to kill her because Dany would bring war to Westeros.

Anyway, you only proved that virtuous Stannis is as awful as his brothers, at least those don't care about pretending.

 

 

 

 

 

[Putin]

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yes, they are.

 

 

What would you rather?? Burning someone alive is a extreme cruel way of killing someone.

 

 

Ofc Robert was a terrible hubby and father.

And for Renly well... The man was gay you know, there is some leeway there.

 

 

They are talking about winning the Throne. Stannis says so to Davos. " Do you think people would've called  Aegon, the Conqueror, if he had no dragons". Burning your nephew to get a Throne is just awful.

 

 

Dany, last time i read the books, wasn't Renly and Robert's niece. 

And they wanted to kill her because Dany would bring war to Westeros.

Anyway, you only proved that virtuous Stannis is as awful as his brothers, at least those don't care about pretending.

 

 

 

 

 

Burning is Red god followers way its simple as that. Mel did many things for Stannis at least he could throw her a bone this way instead of doing it old way like Eddard does.

 

They are talking about great battle too. Millions won´t die and world would not fall into darkness because of person sitting on Iron throne. 

 

I was pointing out Dany as Edric is innocent and Baratheon bros are willing to kill innocent to save millions just like Stannis.

 

Yes that was my point Baratheon bros are the same in categories he mentioned.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Putin said:

Burning is Red god followers way its simple as that. Mel did many things for Stannis at least he could throw her a bone this way instead of doing it old way like Eddard does.

A bone??  It's like saying that flaying people is the Bolton's way, so it's ok.

 

 

1 hour ago, Putin said:

They are talking about great battle too. Millions won´t die and world would not fall into darkness because of person sitting on Iron throne. 

Stannis cares about his Throne, it's a Throne he was promised and is a Throne for why he'd kill Edric. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Putin said:

I was pointing out Dany as Edric is innocent and Baratheon bros are willing to kill innocent to save millions just like Stannis.

And  i was pointing that Dany isn't their niece. Not it's self serving,  as awaking Dragons totally is.

 

 

1 hour ago, Putin said:

Yes that was my point Baratheon bros are the same in categories he mentioned.

Which is not great, at least the other two don't pretend  they ate better than they are or they are moved by greater reasons.

[Putin]

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

A bone??  It's like saying that flaying people is the Bolton's way, so it's ok.

 

 

Stannis cares about his Throne, it's a Throne he was promised and is a Throne for why he'd kill Edric. 

 

 

And  i was pointing that Dany isn't their niece. Not it's self serving,  as awaking Dragons totally is.

 

 

Which is not great, at least the other two don't pretend  they ate better than they are or they are moved by greater reasons.

Ok so you quoted me just to repeat the same things using different words.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

He didn't do it willingly(i want to believe), he did it unwilligly but he's a kinslayer all the same, Srannis was the shadow.

Mate, there are 2 options:

1. He had control over the shadow. In this case he is obviously the murderer, but given Mel, I find it doubtful that he actually had any control over what was happening.

2. He didn't have control. Then he was just a passive witness to the fact. Let's put it this way, if someone superglued a knife to your hand and then forced your hand through someone's neck, are you committing a murder? Of course not (I know weird example but it fits). He didn't commit the murder so he's not a kinslayer.

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

1 hour ago, Putin said:

They are talking about great battle too. Millions won´t die and world would not fall into darkness because of person sitting on Iron throne. 

Stannis cares about his Throne, it's a Throne he was promised and is a Throne for why he'd kill Edric. 

It's a bit more then that though. He views the Throne as his destiny to bring justice and save the realm. In such a context, is he completely wrong. Don't get me wrong, I'm with Davos on this one, but I can see Stannis's point.

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

And  i was pointing that Dany isn't their niece. Not it's self serving

Actually she is, just a bit further down the line. And it's 100% self serving, in order to protect his throne.

[LadyBlackwater]

On 2/25/2020 at 5:08 AM, Putin said:

What did Renly speak about Brienne ?

What makes Robert so much better than Renly in your opinion ?

Can you explain reasons why you consider Stannis so selfish.

Yes Renly had done the least damage but surprisingly people (readers) don´t really like him, 

Renly apparently thought she was ridiculous. A woman in mans armor. However, he did want her protecting him bc she was the only one who didn’t want anything in return from him but to die for him if need be. 

[Frey family reunion]

19 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate, there are 2 options:

1. He had control over the shadow. In this case he is obviously the murderer, but given Mel, I find it doubtful that he actually had any control over what was happening.

2. He didn't have control. Then he was just a passive witness to the fact. Let's put it this way, if someone superglued a knife to your hand and then forced your hand through someone's neck, are you committing a murder? Of course not (I know weird example but it fits). He didn't commit the murder so he's not a kinslayer.

It's a bit more then that though. He views the Throne as his destiny to bring justice and save the realm. In such a context, is he completely wrong. Don't get me wrong, I'm with Davos on this one, but I can see Stannis's point.

Actually she is, just a bit further down the line. And it's 100% self serving, in order to protect his throne.

There is a third option.  The Shadow was a manifestation of his subconscious desires.  In fact the Shadow is a term in Jungian psychology.

Quote

n Jungian psychology, the "shadow", "Id", or "shadow aspect/archetype" may refer to (1) an unconscious aspect of the personality which the conscious ego does not identify in itself, or (2) the entirety of the unconscious, i.e., everything of which a person is not fully conscious. In short, the shadow is the unknown side.

Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one's personality, the shadow is largely negative.

In other words, Stannis may have had a desire to kill his brother, but this desire wasn't a conscious one, it was a subconscious one.  Mel's magic than gave life to Stannis' subconscious desire. 

This is basically the plot to one of George RR's favorite movies, the Forbidden Planet.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

There is a third option.  The Shadow was a manifestation of his subconscious desires.  In fact the Shadow is a term in Jungian psychology.

Quote

n Jungian psychology, the "shadow", "Id", or "shadow aspect/archetype" may refer to (1) an unconscious aspect of the personality which the conscious ego does not identify in itself, or (2) the entirety of the unconscious, i.e., everything of which a person is not fully conscious. In short, the shadow is the unknown side.

Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one's personality, the shadow is largely negative.

In other words, Stannis may have had a desire to kill his brother, but this desire wasn't a conscious one, but it was a subconscious one.  Mel's magic than gave life to Stannis' subconscious desire. 

This is basically the plot to one of George RR's favorite movies, the Forbidden Planet.

This is really cool. I was thinking more on the lines of ,,the shadow baby only works if the ,,father" wants the victim dead", but what you're saying is so much cooler. You're probably right here. Hard to say if this makes Stannis a murder. In this case more likely not as the desire was probably less motivated by hatred or spite, and more motivated by his instinctual desire for survival.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

This is really cool. I was thinking more on the lines of ,,the shadow baby only works if the ,,father" wants the victim dead", but what you're saying is so much cooler. You're probably right here. Hard to say if this makes Stannis a murder. In this case more likely not as the desire was probably less motivated by hatred or spite, and more motivated by his instinctual desire for survival.

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, look at how many times the White Walkers are described as "white shadows".  

They are also easily identifiable as the White Walkers of legends, which haven't existed for thousands of years.  Yet Will immediately identifies them as such even though he has never before observed a White Walker.   In fact who is to say that these are the same White Walkers that exist in the bed time stories of Westeros?

Keeping in mind that the Weirnet or the collective consciousness of the Weirwoods probably contain the memory and psyches of the human greenseers who have gone into the Wood, I wonder if the Weirwoods are somehow creating these creatures from the collective consciousness or subconsciousness of its human greenseers.  

A common boogeymen of the humans, especially the humans up north are the White Walkers.  They are the monsters that are read to them at night to scare them and get them to behave.  

Perhaps the Weirwoods are reaching into these human psyches and  creating these monsters out of thin air (thin frozen air that is).

Frozen Nitrogen bodies and liquid oxygen blood...

 

[frenin]

46 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate, there are 2 options:

1. He had control over the shadow. In this case he is obviously the murderer, but given Mel, I find it doubtful that he actually had any control over what was happening.

2. He didn't have control. Then he was just a passive witness to the fact. Let's put it this way, if someone superglued a knife to your hand and then forced your hand through someone's neck, are you committing a murder? Of course not (I know weird example but it fits). He didn't commit the murder so he's not a kinslayer.

Or three, he knew what was going to happen and let himself be possesed. I tend to be on 1 anyways, Stannis wanted to kill Renly because he knew that otherwise he died.

 

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Actually she is, just a bit further down the line. And it's 100% self serving, in order to protect his throne.

Oh you're right, i don't know why i said it wasn't self serving when i agreed with it first, but no, Dany isn't their niece, she is their second cousin. Edric is his older brother's son. There is a rather big big difference there. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's a bit more then that though. He views the Throne as his destiny to bring justice and save the realm. In such a context, is he completely wrong. Don't get me wrong, I'm with Davos on this one, but I can see Stannis's point.

He views the Throne as his, not his destiny, but his as Robert's heir, i doubt that anyone but Euron wants the throne to bring injustice and sink the realm in chaos, he wants the throne, he is desperate and Edric is his way out. Burning your own nephew alive for a throne is plain horrible and greedy. I can't see Stannis' s point, i know his a greedy man, i can see a lot of Tywin's points, that doesn't mean the man isn't what he is and behind all the talks about darkness and chaos and eternal doom Stannis uses to calm his conscience and try to sway Davos to his madness, the truth of it is plain simple, he wants dragons to kill his enemies and take the Throne. Whatever he might do after that who knows, but is not darkness what he wants to end, is Joffrey and the Lannisters in his throne.

 

 

"Edric—" he started.
"—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." His hand swept across the Painted Table. "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!" Stannis gave a derisive snort. "It glimmers prettily, I'll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?"
"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ." 

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"
"Everything," said Davos, softly.
Stannis looked at him, jaw clenched. "Go," the king said at last, "before you talk yourself back into the dungeon."

 

[...] “The boy?” The king almost spat the words. “The boy,” agreed the queen. “The boy,” Ser Axell echoed. “I was sick unto death of this wretched boy before he was even born,” the king complained. “His very name is a roaring in my ears and a dark cloud upon my soul.” “Give the boy to me and you need never hear his name spoken again,” Melisandre promised. No, but you’ll hear him screaming when she burns him. Davos held his tongue. It was wiser not to speak until the king commanded it. “Give me the boy for R’hllor,” the red woman said, “and the ancient prophecy shall be fulfilled. Your dragon shall awaken and spread his stony wings. The kingdom shall be yours.” Ser Axell went to one knee. “On bended knee I beg you, sire. Wake the stone dragon and let the traitors tremble. Like Aegon you begin as Lord of Dragonstone. Like Aegon you shall conquer. Let the false and the fickle feel your flames.” “Your own wife begs as well, lord husband.” Queen Selyse went down on both knees before the king, hands clasped as if in prayer. “Robert and Delena defiled our bed and laid a curse upon our union. This boy is the foul fruit of their fornications. Lift his shadow from my womb and I will bear you many trueborn sons, I know it.” She threw her arms around his legs. “He is only one boy, born of your brother’s lust and my cousin’s shame.” “He is mine own blood. Stop clutching me, woman.” King Stannis put a hand on her shoulder, awkwardly untangling himself from her grasp. “Perhaps Robert did curse our marriage bed. He swore to me that he never meant to shame me, that he was drunk and never knew which bedchamber he entered that night. But does it matter? The boy was not at fault, whatever the truth.” Melisandre put her hand on the king’s arm. “The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king’s blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born.” Stannis did not pull away from Melisandre’s touch as he had from his queen’s. The red woman was all Selyse was not; young, full-bodied, and strangely beautiful, with her heart-shaped face, coppery hair, and unearthly red eyes. “It would be a wondrous thing to see stone come to life,” he admitted, grudging. “And to mount a dragon … I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome.” Stannis snorted. “Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who’d so impressed us.” His fingers touched the surface of the table, tracing a path lightly across the varnished hills. “Robert took the skulls down when he donned the crown, but he could not bear to have them destroyed. Dragon wings over Westeros … there would be such a …” “Your Grace!” Davos edged forward. “Might I speak?” Stannis closed his mouth so hard his teeth snapped.

 

The only thing Stannis needs is Meli's prompting, thanks god he had Davos.

[Shi Qiang]

On 2/24/2020 at 4:39 PM, Putin said:

So we have Robert , Stannis  and Renly.

We know about their deeds in books , personality , appearance , history , behaviour.

So which one of those 3 you respect the most ?

Probably Renly but I honestly do not like the Baratheons.  Stannis is much worse than Aerys in the burning department.  I don't like him.  He wants to restore the Starks.  Robert was an awful king who bankrupted the kingdom. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Or three, he knew what was going to happen and let himself be possesed. I tend to be on 1 anyways, Stannis wanted to kill Renly because he knew that otherwise he died

So do you think Stannis is lying to himself when he says he was in bed the whole time & had nothing to do with it or whatever? I mean we know he was in bed but if you think Stannis knew what was going on, then he is lying when he claims no responsibility right? 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Burning your own nephew alive for a throne is plain horrible and greedy. I can't see Stannis' s point, i know his a greedy man, i can see a lot of Tywin's points, that doesn't mean the man isn't what he is and behind all the talks about darkness and chaos and eternal doom Stannis uses to calm his conscience and try to sway Davos to his madness, the truth of it is plain simple, he wants dragons to kill his enemies and take the Throne. Whatever he might do after that who knows, but is not darkness what he wants to end, is Joffrey and the Lannisters in his throne

I agree it's a horrible thing to do but his point is; what is one life against many. What does the life of one child mean if it is going to stifle the blood of the whole realm. Now whether Stannis being King would actually do that or not is another story & like I said I don't agree with him but I do understand the premise. 

Let's suppose it were the case that killing one child was going to save the lives of tons of children. Is it right then? Would you do it? Idk, it's a tough question I think. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

The only thing Stannis needs is Meli's prompting, thanks god he had Davos

I agree but he does have reason to believe Mel, no? If it is truly one boy's life to save the rest of the realm maybe it's worth it? 

[frenin]

46 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So do you think Stannis is lying to himself when he says he was in bed the whole time & had nothing to do with it or whatever? I mean we know he was in bed but if you think Stannis knew what was going on, then he is lying when he claims no responsibility right? 

No, i think that Stannis is consciously lying to himself when he remarks that his hands are clean, even Davos, who was not anywhere to be found when all happened, suspects of foul play.

He was slept, that is true, but his ¿conscious? ¿soul? whatever wasn't and that was what killed Renly and that was while he couldn't be awaken even when it's odd to him being slept by then, especially after a battle.

 

 

46 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree it's a horrible thing to do but his point is; what is one life against many. What does the life of one child mean if it is going to stifle the blood of the whole realm. Now whether Stannis being King would actually do that or not is another story & like I said I don't agree with him but I do understand the premise. 

Let's suppose it were the case that killing one child was going to save the lives of tons of children. Is it right then? Would you do it? Idk, it's a tough question I think

I'd agree with that premise if that were the premise in the first place but it simply wasn't, that's just a post hoc argument, both Stannis and Meli make to try and make more palatable the situation for Davos and to convince themselves even more (more Stannis than Mel who was already convinced) of the righteousness of their action but Stannis is not promised the end of the eternal darkness by killing Edric, hell he is not even promised that the dragons will help him in his fight against the great enemy, he is promised dragons that would assure him the Throne. And no, there is simply no justification for that, is just nasty, the fact that he planned on killing his own nephew just to further his agenda is terrible.

The kill one to save them all just suddenly pops while Stannis is trying  to justify himself but that wasn't at all the premise. 

 

46 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree but he does have reason to believe Mel, no? If it is truly one boy's life to save the rest of the realm maybe it's worth it? 

Does he now?? He believes what he wants to believes and wants to believe Meli, he's desperate for a solution that keep him in again he's about to lose.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, i think that Stannis is consciously lying to himself when he remarks that his hands are clean, even Davos, who was not anywhere to be found when all happened, suspects of foul play

Well, there was certainly foul play. 

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

He was slept, that is true, but his ¿conscious? ¿soul? whatever wasn't and that was what killed Renly and that was while he couldn't be awaken even when it's odd to him being slept by then, especially after a battle.

Yeah, I agree it's odd & I'm not fully sure what to make of it. Was just curious on your thoughts. 

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

I'd agree with that premise if that were the premise in the first place but it simply wasn't, that's just a post hoc argument, both Stannis and Meli make to try and make more palatable the situation for Davos and to convince themselves even more (more Stannis than Mel who was already convinced) of the righteousness of their action but Stannis is not promised the end of the eternal darkness by killing Edric, hell he is not even promised that the dragons will help him in his fight against the great enemy, he is promised dragons that would assure him the Throne. And no, there is simply no justification for that, is just nasty, the fact that he planned on killing his own nephew just to further his agenda is terrible

Oh I agree. He is guaranteed nothing & is putting alot of faith in Mel but I do think he believes her because I don't think he just wants to kill his nephew. Or even if he doesn't fully believe her, he is willing to take the chance. 

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

Does he now?? He believes what he wants to believes and wants to believe Meli, he's desperate for a solution that keep him in again he's about to lose.

Yeah he is desperate & I'm not saying he has any justification to burn his nephew alive, I'm just saying Mel has proven she has some power, so there is some reason to believe her. 

[Arthur Peres]

7 hours ago, Putin said:

1. If Stannis is selfserving and selfish same goes for Renly and Robert.They can be put in same basket here.

Renly only cared about himself and wanted throne for himself despite not having any right to it. Robert was selfish , man who only cared for himself , didn´t give a sh1t about kingdoom, and as Littlefinger said he was willing to close his eyes to thing he would rather not see.

Yes they are, but they don't pretend to be noble or pose as justice. Stannis thinks of himself as dutyful but he only does what benefits himself. Stannis treats Cressen as a burden, even tough the man pratically raised him and served him for years. Stannis is more selfish than Renly, and probably just as selfish as Robert.

7 hours ago, Putin said:

 3 . Bad Father, bad husband. If you say this for Stannis then you can´t ignore Robert and Renly ,again they are the same. Robert doesn´t care about his children or wife , he constantly whores himself which showes zero respect he has for them and he does this openly and even admits that, not even tries to hide. Renly was bad husband considering he was doing his wife´s brother .

 

Renly was never a father, and Margeary does not hold on to grudges over him, I doubt that he would be the ideal husband and fit his duty on all fronts but he looks like the best in the world compared to Stannis that barely sees his wife and to the bedroom like someone going to a battlefield...

Robert is a worst father than Stannis to Joffrey, he is just as bad for Myrcella and Tommen but Mya Stone, and Edric does remember him fondly:

“I remember a man throwing me in the air when I was very little. He stands as tall as the sky, and he throws me up so high it feels as though I’m flying. We’re both laughing, laughing so much that I can hardly catch a breath, and finally I laugh so hard I wet myself, but that only makes him laugh the louder. I was never afraid when he was throwing me. I knew that he would always be there to catch me.” She pushed her hair back. “Then one day he wasn’t. Men come and go. They lie, or die, or leave you. A mountain is not a man, though, and a stone is a mountain’s daughter. I trust my father, and I trust my mules. I won’t fall.”

“My father taught me to fight,” the boy said proudly. “He came to see me almost every year, and sometimes we trained together. On my last name day he sent me a warhammer just like his, only smaller.

and he tried to bring his bastards to court only to be stoped by Cersei.

As husband he is worst than Stannis, but Stannis wasn't married to Cersei. Robert with Selyse and Stannis with Cersei seems to be a great plot of a sitcom.

7 hours ago, Putin said:

 4. Yes Stannis was willing to kill innocent but there are 2 points about this :

 

Look at Stannis own words about Edric:

Penrose chose to die rather than give him up.” The king ground his teeth together. “It still angers me. How could he think I would hurt the boy? I chose Robert, did I not? When that hard day came. I chose blood over honor.”

Yet later on, he proves Penrose right as he wanted to burn the boy alive. Stannis is a huge hypocrite and his word holds no weight.

He is angry when people expect the worst of him, but in the end the people are right.

7 hours ago, Putin said:

 So pretty much everything you said about Stannis goes for Robert and Renly too.

I agree, but to a lesser degree.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I agree it's odd & I'm not fully sure what to make of it. Was just curious on your thoughts. 

I think that he killed him and he knows he did, that's why he remarks that his hands are clean and why he suddenly starts talking about how he very deep loved his brother.

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh I agree. He is guaranteed nothing & is putting alot of faith in Mel but I do think he believes her because I don't think he just wants to kill his nephew. Or even if he doesn't fully believe her, he is willing to take the chance. 

Yeah he is desperate & I'm not saying he has any justification to burn his nephew alive, I'm just saying Mel has proven she has some power, so there is some reason to believe her. 

He doesn't want to kill his nephew, but he is more than ready to kill his nephew if that assures him the Throne, not the end of the world, not a way to fight the others, a damn throne. One thing is that you have to face the "one to save the kingdom" dilemma, then i agree that there isn't much choice left,  but this is just pure greed and there is a limit to it, those chapters made me sick, how are people arguing that Stannis is not going to kill his daughter?? His track record is simply amazing, the amount of family that he has either killed, left to die or wanted to kill is frankly something to feel respect for.

 

And even then, Renly annoys me more. lmao. Well, that and well, Meli is a lot of terrible thing, but she isn't a 13-14 year, thanks god. Robert and Renly doing it makes me want to throw up, i don't know why but a lot of ground adults do it and it's just sickening, whatever one may say about Stannis, at least he's into grown women, not woman child or directly  half grown boys. 

 

 

 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I think that he killed him and he knows he did, that's why he remarks that his hands are clean and why he suddenly starts talking about how he very deep loved his brother.

Hmm, again as you said there something fishy here and Stannis's mind was there in the tend viewing things through the shadow's eyes, bu there is still the problem of control. Like think about it, who did the while magic? Who birthed the bloody thing? Who is the magician with a lot of power here. It's Mel obviously. So I find it far more likely that Mel was controlling the whole thing, and that Stannis was just a passive witness unable to do anything.

As for Davos thinking something is fishy, we don't know if he is talking about whatever Mel did, what kind of magic was at hand, how much did Stannis see, or how much did Stannis did. What Stannis told Davos is clearly not the whole truth, but that alone isn't enough to tell us that Stannis was the one to actually do the deed.

As for his guilt, well think about it, he was projected into the thing that killed his brother. It doesn't matter if he didn't have any control over it, he would still fell incredibly guilty and try to reason with himself whether his hands were clean or not. I find this a very interesting and compelling dilemma. If the deed was done with your hands (a deed with you probably at least subconsciously wanted to perform) but without your control or consent, are you guilty of the deed?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

He doesn't want to kill his nephew, but he is more than ready to kill his nephew if that assures him the Throne, not the end of the world, not a way to fight the others, a damn throne.

To be fair by that point he is at least partially hooked on Mel's idea of the Others, the long night and Azor Ahai. So that may be another, though kinda flimsy excuse to commit the deed. Though in the end I do agree that the core motivation there is the Thrones, by it for greed, justice, duty or a mix of all 3. 

That is probably Stannis's lowest point, from were his absolutely great ark finally starts to take shape, the ark had already begun, but after that and the NW thing, that is the catalyst that finally changes Stannis into a much better king and person, realizing many of his previous mistakes. That is one thing that Stannis has that none of his brothers has. He changes and he learns from his mistakes (something which can't be said of either Renly or Robert). Everyone in power makes mistakes, the more the power the more grievous mistakes. It's how they deal with them that shows them what kind of characters they really are.