Which of Baratheon brothers you respect the most

[Peach King]

Half grown boy? Loras was 17 and Renly was 21 when he died

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

Half grown boy? Loras was 17 and Renly was 21 when he died. 

And how old was Loras when they started their romance? Around 13 or so? So, a child, even in Westeros standards.

[Peach King]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And how old was Loras when they started their romance? Around 13 or so? So, a child, even in Westeros standards.

Yeah that's not canon. We don't know when they started their relationship. 

[S. D]

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So do you think Stannis is lying to himself when he says he was in bed the whole time & had nothing to do with it or whatever? I mean we know he was in bed but if you think Stannis knew what was going on, then he is lying when he claims no responsibility right? 

I definitely think he was lying. He was lying so he doesn't have to admit to himself he killed Renly.

He was already plotting Renly's death in the ACOK prologue. He had sex with Mel and he brought her with him to Storm's End. He only had 5000 men, do you really think he thought he would have won in battle? He definitely knew whatever he was doing would kill Renly. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

7 minutes ago, S. D said:

5000 men, do you really think he thought he would have won in battle?

My personal head cannon is that he could have won by basically doing a Battle of the Golden Spurs. Here's what we know. First off on the day of the parley, Stannis's men were cutting wood, and presumably preparing trebuchets. This is weird however given that Storm's End walls are too thick to be destroyed, something that Stannis knows. So I think that instead he was building stakes and other minor fortifications. To that we must add that the Dragonstone levies are probably spearmen (we actually don't know exactly what they were, but given that during the Conquest they were spearmen and that Stannis seems perfectly comfortable defending against a mass cavalry charge, I think spearmen is a safe bet). And the last think to consider, and the most important is that Renly would be attacking at break of day, ie with the sun right in his face. So what I think would have happened is the Renly and Loras would have gotten over eager, and attacked Stannis head on with their a full cavalry charge, and not seeing were they were going, would have impaled themselves on Stannis's stakes and spears. (this is more or less what happened at the actual Golden Spurs).

[Dreadscythe95]

9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

My personal head cannon is that he could have won by basically doing a Battle of the Golden Spurs. Here's what we know. First off on the day of the parley, Stannis's men were cutting wood, and presumably preparing trebuchets. This is weird however given that Storm's End walls are too thick to be destroyed, something that Stannis knows. So I think that instead he was building stakes and other minor fortifications. To that we must add that the Dragonstone levies are probably spearmen (we actually don't know exactly what they were, but given that during the Conquest they were spearmen and that Stannis seems perfectly comfortable defending against a mass cavalry charge, I think spearmen is a safe bet). And the last think to consider, and the most important is that Renly would be attacking at break of day, ie with the sun right in his face. So what I think would have happened is the Renly and Loras would have gotten over eager, and attacked Stannis head on with their a full cavalry charge, and not seeing were they were going, would have impaled themselves on Stannis's stakes and spears. (this is more or less what happened at the actual Golden Spurs).

Man this could work with a 20.000 vs 60.000 but here we talk about 5.000 vs 80.000 (or even more) men and the Reach definitely has a more advanced armiy than Stannis' bannermen, many of which are Sea Lords. Even if the whole cavalry of The Reach made a stupid charge against Spearmen at some point they would break, especially considering that they have a massive fighting force of knights and spearmen as well.

This can't be won by any means, especially wonsidering that both sides knew that was was coming so the element of surprise was gone.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Man this could work with a 20.000 vs 60.000 but here we talk about 5.000 vs 80.000 (or even more) men and the Reach definitely has a more advanced armiy than Stannis' bannermen, many of which are Sea Lords.

You forget that Renly left the infantry bulk of his army at Bitterbridge, he only had around 20k cavalry at Storm's End. He had basically no infantry, because he wanted to reach Stannis quickly. And 20k pure cavalry doing a very stupid charge against a line of spearmen, could result in the spearmen winning.

[Dreadscythe95]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You forget that Renly left the infantry bulk of his army at Bitterbridge, he only had around 20k cavalry at Storm's End. He had basically no infantry, because he wanted to reach Stannis quickly. And 20k pure cavalry doing a very stupid charge against a line of spearmen, could result in the spearmen winning.

Oh yeah true, he left them at bitterbridge with Margaery, I forgot. Still man, a charge of Cavalry against spearmen is probably the most basic military mistake ever. Renly must be braindead to do such a mistake and we know he was not stupid and they also had Randyl Tarly with them.

[Peach King]

8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You forget that Renly left the infantry bulk of his army at Bitterbridge, he only had around 20k cavalry at Storm's End. He had basically no infantry, because he wanted to reach Stannis quickly. And 20k pure cavalry doing a very stupid charge against a line of spearmen, could result in the spearmen winning.

No way Stannis could have won that battle. He was outnumbered 1:4, his army was of lesser quality, being made up of poor fishlords and half were sellswords while Renly had the cream of the Reach, fully trained knights. Stannis also had Storm's End behind him which could send sorties to hit Stannis in the back. Stannis' army had lesser fighting potential overall and his sellswords would not be loyal and might lose courage halfway throughout the battle. He could only win by killing Renly and Renly was well protected by his armour and his Rainbow knights.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Peach King said:

No way Stannis could have won that battle. He was outnumbered 1:4, his army was of lesser quality, being made up of poor fishlords and half were sellswords while Renly had the cream of the Reach, fully trained knights. Stannis also had Storm's End behind him which could send sorties to hit Stannis in the bacm. Stannis' army had lesser fighting potential overall and his sellswords would not be loyal and might lose courage halfway throughout the battle.

The thing is that this is all the Battle of the Golden Spurs. Everything you just said. The Flemish were outnumbered, badly outmatched in every regard, having an army made mostly of untrained peasants and city folk, while the French had the cream of their nobility. The Flemish were also stuck besieging a fort while fighting the French on the other side, a fort that did attempt a sortie. Plus Loras's and Renly's master plan seems to have been to charge full on relying on that superiority to win them the battle. It just seems likely that something would have ended disastrously, especially when you consider Renly was going to be at the head of his army, charging straight into certain death. Also the front was very narrow, so that would have mitigated Renly's superiority quite a lot.

[Peach King]

22 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The thing is that this is all the Battle of the Golden Spurs. Everything you just said. The Flemish were outnumbered, badly outmatched in every regard, having an army made mostly of untrained peasants and city folk, while the French had the cream of their nobility. The Flemish were also stuck besieging a fort while fighting the French on the other side, a fort that did attempt a sortie. Plus Loras's and Renly's master plan seems to have been to charge full on relying on that superiority to win them the battle. It just seems likely that something would have ended disastrously, especially when you consider Renly was going to be at the head of his army, charging straight into certain death. Also the front was very narrow, so that would have mitigated Renly's superiority quite a lot.

I know nothing about history but I just checked other sources and the French had roughly 10,000 men and 2,500 knights. The Flemish army also had a comparable army in terms of numbers (8-12,000) but had limited noble support amounting to, at most, 1-200 knights. They were nowhere close to being outnumbered like Stannis was!

Renly wasn't in the van, he was in the right of the main battle.

Quote

“Lord Mathis, you shall lead the center of my main battle. Bryce, you’ll have the left. The right is mine. Lord Estermont, you shall command the reserve.”

- A Clash of Kings, Catelyn III.

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, Peach King said:

The Flemish army also had a comparable army in terms of numbers (8-12,000) but had limited noble support amounting to, at most, 1-200 knights.

In numbers yes they were comparable, but in terms of quality they were light years away. By the way were did you get that 1000-2000 knight numbers. They maybe had a couple hundreds. Also you must remember that when the french knight attacked a goo part of the flemish army had been either killed or routed, so on the battlefield the Flemish were fairly badly outnumbered.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Renly wasn't in the van, he was in the right of the main battle.

Quote

“Lord Mathis, you shall lead the center of my main battle. Bryce, you’ll have the left. The right is mine. Lord Estermont, you shall command the reserve.”

- A Clash of Kings, Catelyn III.

Point still stands that he would have had a high chance of dying.

[Peach King]

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

In numbers yes they were comparable, but in terms of quality they were light years away. By the way were did you get that 1000-2000 knight numbers. They maybe had a couple hundreds. Also you must remember that when the french knight attacked a goo part of the flemish army had been either killed or routed, so on the battlefield the Flemish were fairly badly outnumbered.

Point still stands that he would have had a high chance of dying.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/history/battle-of-the-golden-spurs.html

The Flemish actually did have knights with them, while Stannis had none. Nada.

I don't think he had a high chance of dying. He is literally the person who had the least chance of dying in that battle. As for sharpened stakes or whatever I don't remember them ever being mentioned. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Peach King said:

As for sharpened stakes or whatever I don't remember them ever being mentioned. 

No that is more of my supposition as I don't see Stannis as someone dumb enough to try to breach SE with trebuchets, so what else could he have done with the wood we are told he was cutting.

 

3 minutes ago, Peach King said:

The Flemish actually did have knights with them, while Stannis had none. Nada.

Yes but not 1k+ as you said. They had around 400 knights with were almost all on foot,

[Peach King]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

No that is more of my supposition as I don't see Stannis as someone dumb enough to try to breach SE with trebuchets, so what else could he have done with the wood we are told he was cutting.

 

Yes but not 1k+ as you said. They had around 400 knights with were almost all on foot,

They could be for trebuchets used to siege the castle.

Ah ok. Still the battle wasn't as one sided as Stannis Vs Renly.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Peach King said:

They could be for trebuchets used to siege the castle.

Not for Storm's End. We are told several times that it's walls are too thick and too magic to be destroyed. Stannis lived there for too long to not know this. So it's improbable that he was building siege equipment.

3 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Ah ok. Still the battle wasn't as one sided as Stannis Vs Renly.

This is true, however those are not unbeatable odds. And as the reachmen didn't have any infantry support, it is possible to pull off a Golden Spurs. Remember the real battle was so close because of the French infantry that did it's job admirably and almost won until it was recalled and the knights were sent in. The french knights did almost no damage to the Flemish. So if the Rrachmen only had cavalry, Stannis could still win the battle.

[Peach King]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not for Storm's End. We are told several times that it's walls are too thick and too magic to be destroyed. Stannis lived there for too long to not know this. So it's improbable that he was building siege equipment.

I mean, Catelyn literally says that's what he was doing:

Quote

 

Stannis Baratheon’s foragers had cut the trees down for his siege towers and catapults.

-A Clash of Kings, Catelyn III.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

This is true, however those are not unbeatable odds. And as the reachmen didn't have any infantry support, it is possible to pull off a Golden Spurs. Remember the real battle was so close because of the French infantry that did it's job admirably and almost won until it was recalled and the knights were sent in. The french knights did almost no damage to the Flemish. So if the Rrachmen only had cavalry, Stannis could still win the battle.

Yeah, Stannis could have won the battle,  if Stannis had actually built considerable defenses, and if Renly was stupid enough to charge into those considerable defenses after seeing his van get wrecked by them, and didn't retreat and reband instead, and if Renly was unlucky enough to fall and get pierced by a spike while wearing full armour and a helm made by Tobho Mott, one of the best armourers in Westeros.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Peach King said:

I mean, Catelyn literally says that's what he was doing:

Quote

 

Stannis Baratheon’s foragers had cut the trees down for his siege towers and catapults.

-A Clash of Kings, Catelyn III.

That's what she thinks. She probably just saw them cutting down trees and building something with them. Again Stannis couldn't be dumb enough to build siege equipment while Renly was clearly coming.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Yeah, Stannis could have won the battle,  if Stannis had actually built considerable defenses, and if Renly was stupid enough to charge into those considerable defenses after seeing his van get wrecked by them, and didn't retreat and reband instead, and if Renly was unlucky enough to fall and get pierced by a spike while wearing full armour and a helm made by Tobho Mott, one of the best armourers in Westeros.

Let's break this down:

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

if Stannis had actually built considerable defenses

As said before he probably did.

5 minutes ago, Peach King said:

if Renly was stupid enough to charge into those considerable defenses

That's the tricky bit, however I think his, and Loras's hubris might have made them do that.

5 minutes ago, Peach King said:

after seeing his van get wrecked by them, and didn't retreat and reband instead

Here come the advantage of the sun for Stannis, as it would have meant Renly wouldn't have seen what was happening.

6 minutes ago, Peach King said:

if Renly was unlucky enough to fall and get pierced by a spike while wearing full armour and a helm made by Tobho Mott, one of the best armourers in Westeros.

More probably if he just fell down, as in that case he probably would have been either killed by Stannis's footmen or trampled to death by his own army.

All in all I don't think a Stannis victory would have been far fetched when considering Renly's hubris and arrogance as well as the various factors that would have helped Stannis a lot (fortifications, the sun, the narrow battlefield and an army of spearmen).

[Peach King]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's what she thinks. She probably just saw them cutting down trees and building something with them. Again Stannis couldn't be dumb enough to build siege equipment while Renly was clearly coming.

If he's gonna siege Storm's End, he would need siege equipment....and he was sieging Storm's End. He couldn't just stand outside and be like "I'm sieging this castle!" he needs to actually siege the castle.

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As said before he probably did.

Wouldn't Renly's scouts see them though? If they did Randyll Tarly would have mentioned it while making battle plans, but he doesn't seem to think Stannis did anything like that.

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's the tricky bit, however I think his, and Loras's hubris might have made them do that.

No! No matter how stupid you are you're not going to charge directly into sharpened spikes.

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Here come the advantage of the sun for Stannis, as it would have meant Renly wouldn't have seen what was happening.

He would have heard screams of terror and ALLa that...besides the sun isn't such a big factor. Storm's End could have blocked out the sun. 

8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

More probably if he just fell down, as in that case he probably would have been either killed by Stannis's footmen or trampled to death by his own army.

Yeah that's possible. Still Renly's cause ends with Renly and his soldiers would know that.

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

All in all I don't think a Stannis victory would have been far fetched when considering Renly's hubris and arrogance as well as the various factors that would have helped Stannis a lot (fortifications, the sun, the narrow battlefield and an army of spearmen).

I guess it could happen....but 9/10 odds maybe. Not more than that.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Peach King said:

He would have heard screams of terror

He wouldn't have known who's screams they were.

3 minutes ago, Peach King said:

I guess it could happen....but 9/10 odds maybe.

For whom? I guess the deciding factor would be if Renly was rash enough to attack at break of day without checking to see what Stannis had been doing the night before.