Which of Baratheon brothers you respect the most

[Bernie Mac]

30 minutes ago, Adam Targaryen said:

I am neither of the two. I will, however, admit to being only half-decent and therefory half faulty with numbers in this specific case. I did a quick google search to find Stannis' army numbers and on some pages it was estimated at 5000-10 000. It is very possible that you are right and Stannis only had 5000 at the most.

 

And you are right regarding Renly's warriors being better equipped and trained.

 

So it would probably be less than 14 000 deaths. Maybe half of that. 7 000. If all of Stannis' men die but they kill 2000 men. 

Battle does not work like that. Lets start of simple

Do you think 2 people fighting a 1,000 would see an equal amount of casualties from each side, assuming the 2 were trained and equipped to the same, or a lesser, standard than the 1,000.

There are not going to be an equal amount of casualties when a 20k army faces a 5k army. The 20k would suffer far fewer casualties.

Stannis's side would quickly get overwhelmed, as Renly said many of Stannis' sellswords may switch sides, just like many of Stannis' supporters did in the Battle of Blackwater.

There is unlikely to be 7,000 casualties from such a battle.

Quote

The point is that Renly was willing to go through with these thousands of deaths, and those deaths, even if they are just 7000 or even if they would be 1000, are a much larger number than the amount of people Stannis had killed at Dragonstone up to that point in the story.

I genuinely don't know the point you are trying to make here, I'm just focussing on the flaws in your numbers and perception of casualties in battle.

[Loose Bolt]

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There are not going to be an equal amount of casualties when a 20k army faces a 5k army. The 20k would suffer far fewer casualties.

1555 about 500 Finnish peasants ambushed invading huge army of Russia in Joutselkä. Those peasants claimed it has included over 30.000 men. Russians lost over 1000 men. Most surviving Russians run away. That number included bodies of dead Russians and spoils of war those left behind, so number of casualties among invaders is sure unlike real size of that army. 

So under right conditions and if leader of larger army is stupid enough to make bad mistakes. It is possible that smaller army can even win the battle against larger army.

[Bernie Mac]

5 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

1555 about 500 Finnish peasants ambushed invading huge army of Russia in Joutselkä. Those peasants claimed it has included over 30.000 men. Russians lost over 1000 men. Most surviving Russians run away. That number included bodies of dead Russians and spoils of war those left behind, so number of casualties among invaders is sure unlike real size of that army. 

So under right conditions and if leader of larger army is stupid enough to make bad mistakes. It is possible that smaller army can even win the battle against larger army.

In general it is not going to happen. We all know that there are examples of smaller forces beating the odds (sometimes through a greater understanding of the territory or having a better type of soldier unit), but in the majority of these situations they don't. In general I don't think any of us on here will win the lottery this month. Someone pointing out that people do in fact win the lottery does not change my point, I'm talking about the likelihood here.

• Stannis army was smaller
• Was inferior, both in terms of troop quality and equipment
• Stannis was trapped between the Walls of Storm's End (and its garrison) and the 20k army with Renly

 

Stannis has not gone there to do battle. He's not strategized some plan to defeat a 20k army, he's fast asleep while the generals of his and Renly's army are getting ready for battle. He has faith in Melisandre.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

, but in the majority of these situations they don't.

"These situations" like Stannis asoiaf situations? Cuz there's 2 of em. One in BW where he got his ass handed to him by Tyrions ridiculous inferior numbers and the other when he smashed Mances gigantic host of giants.

In these type of situations, when it comes to numbers, think the opposite

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

he's fast asleep while the generals of his and Renly's army are getting ready for battle.

So, he fell asleep. No reason to think Meli told him the truth.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He has faith in Melisandre.

Blind faith? I agree that he hopes she can destroy him, perhaps by assassination, but whod believe that?

Whatd Mel tell him on DS? "Fuck me and an angry spirit will jump from my cooch into your brothers neck? "

Hes got faith in that sentence?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Blind faith? I agree that he hopes she can destroy him, perhaps by assassination, but whod believe that?

Whatd Mel tell him on DS? "Fuck me and an angry spirit will jump from my cooch into your brothers neck? "

Hes got faith in that sentence?

I don't think we can say what exactly she told him but I think that he probably should have been able to piece together himself, with the information we know he had, that Mel has her hand in these killings & so by association if nothing else, so does Stan. 

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think we can say what exactly she told him but I think that he probably should have been able to piece together himself, with the information we know he had, that Mel has her hand in these killings & so by association if nothing else, so does Stan. 

Oh, no doubt. When Stannis dreamt of his brothers death I think we should assume he realized whats up, especially if he shared a similar dream involving Penrose.

I just dont think Meli indulged the true plan for Renlys death with Stannis, because that conversation seems too ridiculous.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh, no doubt. When Stannis dreamt of his brothers death I think we should assume he realized whats up, especially if he shared a similar dream involving Penrose.

I just dont think Meli indulged the true plan for Renlys death with Stannis, because that conversation seems too ridiculous.

Yeah agreed. 

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

"These situations" like Stannis asoiaf situations? Cuz there's 2 of em. One in BW where he got his ass handed to him by Tyrions ridiculous inferior numbers

He was winning that battle before Tywin and the Tyrells turned up.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

and the other when he smashed Mances gigantic host of giants.

What gigantic hosts of giants? It was a poorly defended camp, with goats, women and children as well as warriors.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

In these type of situations, when it comes to numbers, think the opposite

eh? Do supply the numbers from these battles.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, he fell asleep. No reason to think Meli told him the truth.

Melisandre told him what happened.

Dude, you are being pretty disingenuous. Everyone else is awake, as they are expecting battle. Stannis is asleep. He's elsewhere, murdering his brother. He knows there will be no battle.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Blind faith? I agree that he hopes she can destroy him, perhaps by assassination, but whod believe that?

Whatd Mel tell him on DS? "Fuck me and an angry spirit will jump from my cooch into your brothers neck? "

Hes got faith in that sentence?

What sentence? The sentence you just made up?  No, don't be obtuse. Mel has lived with the the Baratheons for some time, gained both of their trust. She's not just said one sentance to them.

[Hugorfonics]

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was winning that battle before Tywin and the Tyrells turned up.

What gives you that idea? Did he storm the Red Keep? March through Fleas Bottom? Knock down even one gate? Was he even on the correct side of the bay when Tyrions reinforcements arrived?

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

What gigantic hosts of giants? It was a poorly defended camp, with goats, women and children as well as warriors.

Giant skinchanging mammoth warriors. Verses a few Crows and some Florents. Victory was impressive

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Do supply the numbers from these battles.

Um, no.

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Melisandre told him what happened.

Maybe, eh, probably.

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Dude, you are being pretty disingenuous.

Shit doesn't make sense man. Mels plan was outlandish, and since she hasnt proven herself yet in the story theres no reason to trust her. Plus, really, i dont see how Stannis can stay hard while thinking of magicking his baby bro.

Keep shit simple, Melisandre is a conniving liar whos claim to prominence is by being cloaked in mystery. She gives half truths and conceals the other half throughout the series, thats what happened here too.

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Everyone else is awake, as they are expecting battle. Stannis is asleep. 

Dude. She fucked the life outta him. Like, literally. He passed the hell out

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

. He's elsewhere, murdering his brother.

Wait, what? Like a warg? How much control do you think he had? Or, how much control could he have had, in your opinion?

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

She's not just said one sentance to them.

So whatd she say? Howd she convince Selyse to fuck her husband? What could she have said to Stannis thatd be believable?

[CassDarry]

Got to go with Bobby B

He obviously inspires loyalty, is a fierce warrior and has a strong seed. I don’t agree with his extra marital affairs or domestic abuse but Stannis was guiltily of affairs aswell (Renly Is I presume) Stannis is also is a hypocrite, pretending  he’s just but really he’s just as greedy as the Lannister’s.

I don’t know a lot about Renly but he did alright and could of said him if Robert was not aware he was a bad king and instead of selfishly abdicating he stayed knowing Joffrey was worse. Granted points off Robert for not finding an alternative before he died 

[Adam Targaryen]

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

Your claim does not make sense, Stannis forces were in considerably poorer condition and they also had Storm's End at the back. Nor Stannis's men would fight till the last man.

In this you are right. I was wrong when I wrote this.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

Stannis was the one who started the fight, he wanted Renly's army, Renly was not about to give them any and that would not have changed had Renly not crowned himself, he went to kill Renly for that. And ofc it's relevant to the question, Stannis was the one startingthe fight, Stannis was the one dragging the war to its bloodiest phase, had Renly not been killed tens of thousands of lives would've bees spared.

 

I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that Stannis was the one who decided that there was to be a Baratheon VS Baratheon battle, and not Renly? If so, where is your source for that?

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

What kind of logic is that?? Renly did see Cersei's kids as legit, he just didn't care, the very fact that Renly sees those kids as legit completely erases any argument from Stannis in his pov, Stannis simply has no right to take the Throne and as him he is taking it because he feels like it, Renly owes Stannis zero in said situation.  Paraphrasing Robb "That makes him [Joffrey] evil, I do not know that it makes Renly king. Joffrey is still Robert's eldest trueborn son, so the throne is rightfully his by all the laws of the realm."

It's unreasonably and completely ludicrous that Stannis demands nothing to Renly without any kind of proof.

It is classical logic. I have very recently studied philosophy including logic at university level so I know how it works and it is the most legitimate kind of logic.

I did not think about the possibility of Renly rebelling against Joffrey despite believing him to be legitimate, however. Thus my argument is flawed because of my faulty assumption. Since writing the post I have read and realised that Renly believed Joffrey to be legitimate. I did not know this before, or otherwise I had forgotten it.

 

So essentially Renly is rebelling against Stannis since he is rebelling against everyone in general, regardless of their legitimacy, just because he wants the throne for himself. That is a fairer treatment of Stannis than I thought, but it is still a bad, illegal and irrational thing to do. That means Renly is not being unfair and unlawful against Stannis, he is being unfair and unlawful to everyone by not following the laws - and without any reasonable motivation of being unfairly treated or having family members imprisoned that other people like the Starks had for rebelling. His motivation is just his own will to be king, and that is in my opinion a bad one that does not justify his rebellion against everyone else.

 

 Renly does not care about the law in the case of kingship. He just wants power for himself. That is bad. And one can argue back and forth about the question of whether Renly crowning himself is an altruistic thing, since he thinks he will make the best king, but I think he would not make a better king than Stannis. Many Targaryen kings, like Viserys II, were a bit asocial or "grumpy" like Stannis but were still great kings and hands. Stannis is just and fair and is good at kingly responsibilities such as keeping order in a strict and dutiful way, unlike Renly. And there are several more examples of this with the good "grumpy" Targaryen kings other than Viserys II. But this is of course not an absolute truth so we can continue arguing about this if you do not agree with me about Stannis being better for kingship than Renly.

 

Renly crowning himself and rebelling against the other kings or potential kings is a bad action according to me. It is selfish, irrational and dangerous. If he had not done it there would not have been the Baratheon VS Baratheon conflict.

Even if Stannis was the one who initiated the specific battle by Storm's End (As I said, I do not know who it was. Please write information about it in quotes if you have information that I do not. I think that it is not stated who started it in the books, but I am not sure.), Renly initiated the possibility of there being such a battle. If Renly had not crowned himself there would not have been a need or reason for such a battle. But by crowning himself, Renly steals the men of the Stormlands that should belong to Stannis, and it is obvious that Stannis then will have to initiate a fight to get those men back or defend his claim. Renly should have known this. So even if Renly did not initiate that specific battle, he did initiate the Baratheon VS Baratheon conflict. And that is bad.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

Almost no one in Westeros had any reason to believe that Robert was going to die any time soon, Stannis had more than reasons to believe it, he left both his brothers on their own completely unaaware of the danger they were in.  Renly did not know about the twincest, Stannid did know about it, trying to share the blame is simply absurd. If your father knows you're about to be killed and shuts his mouth and flees and your mother does not know nothing and stays, you can't legitimately say that both of them are responsible for your fate, one knew and chose to abandon you, the other was as in the dark as you were.

Stannis ofc that sees Robert's death coming, he believes that the Lannisters had killed old Jon and he prepares himsel for Robert's death.

 

These things are the reason behind Renly's crowning and the whole War of the 5 Kings, behind Ned's murder, behind old Jon's murder and behind Bran's crippling. Literally none of the subsequent political and magical  events in the whole Planetos (from Robert's death, to Dany's dragons and the meerenese knot) would be the same had Stannis opened his mouth, Stannis wanted to be King however, the only way of achieving "rightfully" was if Robert were to die without trueborn kids, and Stannis made sure of just  that by shutting his mouth.

That without the fact that Stannis betrayed his own brother, the one bitching about Renly. 

 

Okay, you are right in this to a high degree.

 

It is a matter of degrees, of course, but yes, there are actually big signs that Stannis is preparing himself for Robert's death. I admit that. And Stannis's silence and actions during AGOT does indeed lead to the War of the Five Kings. He is indeed guilty of a large part of that. Not all of it, since he could not have known exactly what would happen between House Stark and House Lannister and not even be entirely sure of Robert dying, but a large part of it. So yes, maybe that makes him ultimately worse than Renly. It is actually possible. That would make the entire discussion end there. Maybe it is so. It is not only Stannis's actions that lead to the War of the Five Kings, but yes, he does have a large part of the blame in it. Because of this, I now see him as roughly equal to Renly. Congratulations, you may have won or at least evened out the entire argument of who is better of Stannis and Renly by that. I did not realise that Stannis' actions were so causally related to the War of the Five Kings. And they are not to 100 %, as I have said. But yes, to a very significant degree. In conclusion, I like Renly more and Stannis less after this. As I said, roughly equal, but I may still like Stannis better and feel like I can justify this, since Stannis' actions are not the only thing leading to the War of the Five Kings and he could not 100 % know about Robert's death beforehand etc etc.

 

(I am sorry about repeating myself, by the way, but I have to make myself clear over and over again and also kind of explain it or summarise it to myself.)

 

So essentially, depending on how accountable Stannis is for the War of the Five Kings erupting, which is a very complex question, I might have changed my mind and consider Stannis to be worse than Renly. Maybe. It is possible. But it is not certain, since Stannis' blame in the matter is not a 100 % simple and clear thing. So yeah, maybe we can continue arguing about this, but I think it would be extremely hard or impossible to conclusively determine exactly how guilty Stannis is for this. And in any case, even if he is objectively very guilty for it, I will still answer your other arguments or general sentences down below here.

 

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

The war between Lannister and Baratheon leads to a war between Baratheons because Renly, even when he was also driven by ambition, see crowning himself as his only way out and believes, rightfully so, that Stannis could never get the job because people simply dislike him. Stannis killed more Baratheon men in the Blackwater than Renly could've ever at Storm's End, that is very obvious.

Maybe that is so, that Renly sees crowning himself as his only way out. If he does, he is wrong and endangering people with this wrong analysis of the situation. It is far from his only way out. He is in one of the absolutely best positions one can possibly be in. He is the lord of the Stormlands, has lots of money, the friendship of Ser Loras and a potential political ally in House Tyrell, etc etc. He does not need to fear for his own life or anything like that. Crowning himself is absolutely not "his only way out".

 

If he thinks that Stannis can not get many men by his own, he should either use his charm to convince the men who would follow him that Stannis is a good king or otherwise kneel to Joffrey and combine his forces with the Lannisters to defeat Stannis. That would likely be extremely easy, or at least Renly would think so, since he doesn't know about Stannis' magic. Anyone could realise that the Stormlands plus Joffrey's forces could defeat Stannis. But Renly crowns himself because he does not want to kneel to Joffrey.

 

If you really believe that he crowned himself because he saw himself as in trouble and was scared of the Lannisters coming to get him, then we can continue arguing about that. I think that he should not need to fear that if he just kneels to Joffrey and then lives out his life in Storm's End, staying a loyal liege lord to Joffrey, but maybe he has more reason to fear the Iron Throne and should be afraid. Tell me if you think that he does. I cannot really see it.

 

 

 

You say that Renly rightfully believes that Stannis could not get the job because people simply disliked him. That is not necessarily true. I think it is false and that Renly is wrong or underestimating Stannis in this.

 

A lot of the Stormlanders came to him after Renly's death and his current new followers from the mountain clans of the North in ADWD and so forth proves that Stannis can get people to follow him. And it would probably have worked even better if Renly had supported him and shown/told people that Stannis was a good king instead of doing the opposite. So I do think that Stannis could have gathered enough support and good will from people if Renly had supported him.

 

Yes, Stannis may have killed more men at the Blackwater than Renly could have at Storm's End. But that is after Renly has died so you cannot legitimately compare the two of them at that point. Renly is dead and can no longer kill anyone. There is a high chance that Renly could have killed just as many if he had led the Baratheon forces at the Blackwater instead of Stannis. Just because Stannis was the one that survived, he became the one who led all those men to their deaths at the Blackwater. If Renly had survived, it is very likely that he would have killed as many men/led as many men to their deaths in a similar attack or an even worse idea - especially since Renly is not a good strategist like Stannis. So it is not right or reasonable to judge Stannis for how many people died at the Blackwater and say with certainty that Renly would not have led his forces to a similar catastrophy. It is very likely that he would have.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

[Sorry. I accidentally deleted the text I wanted to quote here. See next quote thing down below here. // Adam Targaryen]

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

Ofc Stannis had no reason of doing it, he himself chose to fuel the conflict by remaining silent.

 

No, the Second conflict is not Renly's fault, it's more Stannis's actually. Renly crowns himself out of survival sense, Stannis wants Renly's army, he kills Renly. Had Renly not crowned himself, Stannis would have wanted Renly's army and he would've still killed Renly to get said army. It's simply hugely hypocrite to accuse Renly for that while the reason there is a conflict in the first place is Stannis actions, the reason why you keep saying that Stannis's actions are "legitimate" is because he let Robert die for it.

 

 

As I said, maybe maybe Renly does crown himself out of survival sense. Please elaborate on this if you want to. I still don't think that he is in that much of a troublesome or dangerous position. He could just kneel to Joffrey and/or flee to Storm's End, which is literally impregnable. Etc etc...

 

Yes, Stannis wants Renly's army, since he knows that it should be his, since he is the rightful king and all the kingdoms' armies should belong to him. It is not wrong for Stannis to want Renly's army. It should belong to him. Yes, he kills Renly for it since Renly has already shown that he is willing to kill Stannis. Renly is the one who creates the unnatural position wherein the younger brother rebels against the older one, forcing a conflict. If the younger brother kneels, none of them has to die. If the younger brother rebels, one of the brothers eventually has to die or kneel. And it is not right that Stannis should kneel to Renly.

 

I do not think that Stannis would have killed Renly to get his army even if Renly had not crowned himself. They used to love each other and Stannis is not that terrible. Okay, it is possible that Stannis would have killed Renly if Renly had kneeled to Joffrey but if he had done that it would mean that he would be equally okay with Stannis' death since he did not side with him and since he knows that Stannis is extremely weak without the Stormlands army. So it is still a draw between them. Either Renly kneels to Stannis and therefore Renly's army goes to Stannis, their king, or Renly sides with Joffrey and thereby is fine with Stannis being defeated and killed by the combined force of Renly and Joffrey. In this case Renly and Stannis are equally murderous and terrible, and they both do it from a position of thinking that their side is Robert's lawful heir. So it's a draw in that scenario.

 

Yes, it may be hypocrisy to accuse Renly of the Baratheon VS Baratheon conflict while Stannis is partly responsible for the entire War of the Five Kings. As I said above, I admit that I may be at least partly wrong in this.

 

No, the reason why I keep saying that Stannis' actions are legitimate is not because he let Robert die for it. It is because I think (/thought, in some cases) that Stannis' actions in fact are legitimate.

 

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

 

How many people do you think died at the Blackwater?? How many people are dying in the North???

 

 

I clearly wrote "at the time of Renly's death", not afterwards. Blackwater and the thing with Stannis happens after Renly's death. Please read more carefully.

 

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

 

It is a big difference, like killling an enemy in war and a war prisoner. 

 

Yes. But isn't it still the right thing to do, if it is for the greater good, with the unjustified death of one person leading to thousands of lives spared, Stannis winning the crown and then being a good king and saving the kingdom and so forth?

Maybe. Maybe not. We can continue arguing about this.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

[Sorry. I mishandled the quote things again. // Adam Targaryen]

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

1. He doesn't give a single damn about ending the war with least bloodshed, he never makes that a reason, it does not make sense to grant him that reason and had he truly cared about that he would've told the twincest earlier and not when there was a war with no return going on. 
2. Renly was obviously ready to kill Stannis because Stannis both attacked his home and threatened to kill him.
3. Renly had no intention of killing Stannis before Stannis attacked him, he believed that Stannis would help him to get the throne and he offered him Storm's End to patch thinngs up.

 

 

1. You do not know that. Do you seriously believe that Stannis is such a terrible person that he does not care about sparing lives at all??? I think Stannis does care. He does moral actions from time to time and I think he is a good person at heart who cares about the lives of the people. And there was no guarantee that telling people about the incest was going to save thousands of people or that the opposite would lead to thousands of deaths. Stannis is not a psychic, he could not predict the exact future and exactly what terrible things would come.

2 & 3 It is possible that you are right in this. I did not think of this actually. Yes, you are right. Renly did not necessarily prepare to kill Stannis by declaring himself king. All right. You are right in that. And the offer of Storm's End was a good and fair one in such a position.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

 

Renly planned to end the war with the least bloodshed, Stannis spent thousands of lives in his failure at the Blackwater, how is that Renly's fault??

 

Once again, I very clearly said "at the time of Renly's death". Your question and mentioning of the Blackwater is irrelevant.

 

But since you asked I will answer it anyway.

 

Stannis' spending of thousands of lives in his failure at the Blackwater is Renly's fault by Renly declaring himself king instead of kneeling to Stannis, leading Stannis to kill Renly as almost the only option he has for winning the war and therefore being left alive and having to take the blame for leading Baratheon men into Tyrion's unexpected wildfire apocalypse. And if Renly had killed Stannis it would have been Stannis' fault that Renly led men to their deaths against the Lannisters afterwards. As I have said, it is irrelevant since it happened after Renly's death and we can not know how Renly would have acted if he had survived (and won against Stannis). But it is likely that Renly could have suffered a similar defeat.

 

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

 

I can't with the double standards, everything Stannis does is an easy way to spare the lives of many many others... Which would've been repulsive even if that were the true, it wasn't.

(1) Stannis's only purpose behind killing Edric is actually ending the lives of many many others, since his only purpose behind that is awake dragons that would make him win the throne and destroy his many many enemies. 

(2) The fact that they did not have met before makes Edric any less his nephew?? Stannis did know and sort of loved Cersei's kids, that did not restrain him for wanting their deads now.

(3) Stop using Renly for trying to clean Stannis's messes, sometime along the way  you should start realizing that Stannis is a grown man and can't be defended with "yes but look at the other". 

(4) Renly was prepared to kinslay Stannis because Stannis had attacked Storm's End and threatened with killing him.

 

(1) Did he really say that he intended to burn or kill a great amount of his enemies with those dragons? Maybe he would use them as a deterrant, and make people kneel when they saw his power. Or maybe he would just use the dragons on a small few of his enemies. It is not certain that he would kill a great amount of people with the dragons. Many would likely surrender just from hearing about their existence, thus leading to Stannis winning the war with minimal bloodshed.

(2) No, of course it does not. But at least Stannis is not betraying someone he loves deeply. That would be worse. Edric is his nephew but it would have been worse if they had truly known each other. That is what I mean.

(3) Stannis's status as a grown man does not alter the fact that he is a fictional character without an ability to express his voice and defend his own actions on this Internet forum. Thus, if I am to win the argument, I have to defend him, and it is also reasonable to do so. A good and very common way of arguing about which one of two persons is worse and which one is better is to compare them side by side. So you should not have a problem with me comparing Stannis's bad actions to Renly's bad actions. Such a comparison is in the nature of good and rational argumentation.

(4) Yes. You are right in this.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

It was neither good nor justified thing, we see how it gets, Renly's death it's one of the main reasons for the chaos Westeros is at right now, the other reason is Tywin's death.

Renly did not start anything, a lie told a thousand times does not make it any less lie, Renly did nt go to war against him, Stannis was the one attacking Renly.

 

I am ambivalent towards your first sentence. You may be more or less right, you may be more or less wrong.

 

Regarding your second sentence: Yes, Renly did start something. Sure, he may not have gone to war against Stannis directly, but declaring oneself king against the law and rebelling against the lawful succession - whether it is Joffrey or Stannis - means indirectly starting a conflict or war with them.

 

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

 

Why would Robert and Renly expect or even want to give Stannis any advantage to take the Throne by force?? Robert was not deciding whose brother got the better chanceto kill each other when he made his mind. Stannis wanted to fight his own brother because Stannis coveted his own's brother army.

 

I'm guessing you mean why Robert would give Stannis Storm's End so that he would be in a strong position to fight for the throne. Obviously, Robert would most likely not expect Stannis to want the throne or there to be a war over it within House Baratheon. So Robert probably did not think as badly of Stannis as you do. Robert might have wanted to give Stannis Storm's End and the Stormlands to show him gratitude over his great actions during Robert's Rebellion, saving Storm's End from the Tyrell siege etc etc... There are many many reasons why Robert could have and should have given Storm's End to Stannis.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

 

There is not complex arguing. Those keeps were Robert's as were Robert's decision to grant them to his brothers instead of just naming them castellans for his sons. Robert was in no way obligated to giveanything to his brothers or to follow any specifical order, which is at the end a random order. 

 

Yes, there is complex arguing.

 

No, Robert was not officially obligated to give anything to his brothers but I think he should have given Storm's End to Stannis as a thankyou since Stannis followed him so dutifully and bravely during Robert's Rebellion and was a very good younger brother who was worthy of it. Etc etc...

 

And it is very complex with Storm's End VS Dragonstone since the Targaryen dynasty has been replaced with the Baratheon dynasty but partly via Robert's kingship being justified via his Targaryen heritage. There are many questions which are not entirely clear.

 

Which of the Targaryen traditions should live on? Which should be replaced? Since Robert rules over both the Seven Kingdoms and the Stormlands, should he get the Red Keep and Storm's End all to himself? Should the Baratheon heir that is closest to King Robert in the line of succession (Stannis) get Storm's End as the Baratheon heir who is unoccupied with ruling from the Red Keep? Or should he be given Dragonstone, since that was the tradition of the previous Targaryen dynasty? Robert did not have to continue with the Dragonstone tradition. He got rid of other things from the Targaryen era. But he chose to do it anyway, and regardless of whether he thought it was an honour to Stannis or not, it was not that good for Stannis to have Dragonstone. Stannis was mistreated by Robert in this, even if Robert's intentions were good.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

 

(1) Renly thinks Robert's kids legit.

(2) Him thinking of Robert's kids legit makes Stannis a usuper in his eyes, he has zero duties tiwards him.

(1) Yes, you are right in this, once again, I did not know that.

(2) Yes. Fine. According to Renly's point of view, yes.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:01 AM, frenin said:

For the billionth time, Renly did not rebel against him. Stannis commited treason against his brother.

 

Yes, Renly did rebel against Stannis. By declaring himself king, he rebels against both Joffrey and Stannis. What treason do you mean? The killing? Or what?

 

 

...

If you want to you can answer back, or maybe we can end it at this. It has taken me extremely long (2 1/2 hours) to write this down and I am not sure if I would do it again if you replied with an equally long answer. I don't know.

 

Anyway, to sum up, I was wrong about several things and admitted to that. I have gotten a better understanding of Renly regarding his view on Cersei's children, his intentions of making Stannis kneel instead of killing him, Stannis' actions in part leading to the War of the Five Kings etc etc.

 

But you can of course answer whatever you want and we can maybe continue. We will see.

 

 

//

Cheerz~

[TheBlackDragonWillReturn]

I genuinly feel sorry for Stannis like everybody else and so I think he was a better guy than the other brothers. I thought Robert was a major douche with all those bastards and how he basically crashed Stannis's wedding. Renly's not that bad of a guy apart from the fact that he's quite cocky and I thought the whole rainbow guard thing was kinda weird. So basically Stannis deserves more, Robert with a major d*ckhead and Renly was arrogant. Unpopular opinion?

[Samsaptakas]

Stannis baratheon.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 2/25/2020 at 2:19 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Somehow I doubt that. Stannis mutilating Davos does not strike me as great boss behaviour, burning alive his Hand, his in-law uncle, does not strike be as being a great boss. Burning other vassals for them protecting their religious beleifs is also not something I would want in a boss.

Stannis is an authoritarian in his leadership, there is not much room for his subordinates to act on their own. On top of that he, personally, is not the easiest to get along with.

To top it off he a nepotist. Davos, as great as he is, could barely read, had no real qualifications to be the Hand. He was given the job over more qualified members, members who had given a lot more to Stannis' cause than Davos. Even Stannis can see he's not qualified as while Davos' job title has changed, his job description has not. He's doing in ADWD what he was doing in ACOK, going to Lords on behalf of Stannis asking for help.

As a boss, modern day or medieval, I'd much prefer Robert or Renly to Stannis.

Robert. Simply for his accomplishments. First non-Targaryen to sit the Iron Throne. Almost 20 years of rule, with relativity little warfare and fairly prosperous.

Obviously he's not without his faults, but he's achieved the most.

He united a larger faction through his political acumen, resulting in the largest army seen in Westeros history. That is something Stannis would not be capable of doing. If it was not for magic Renly would be King and Westeros would be in a more harmonious position than it currently is.

On the whole I'd put Stannis in second place, over Renly, simply because Renly died young and Stannis' extra decade (and counting) life has allowed him to achieve more. Stannis' starring role in the Greyjoy Rebellion is enough to give him second place.

I disagree. Davos was chosen as Hand, because he’s loyal and he gives good advice.

[GoldenGail3]

Stannis. I hope your death is amazing and I hope Danny don’t kill you. I hope that your death don’t kill off the Baratheons though.

[Lord Lannister]

Well all three of them have severe faults in the likability department. In terms of greatness Robert probably was the best and worst of them. Got it all and pissed it all away. But the title of this thread was respect.

All three brothers have a problem with selfishness, but express it in different ways. I'd have to go with Stannis. You can argue his actions and methods, but he has his code and lives by it for the most part.

[Orm]

I respect and love  Stannis.......... of course I do.........

Robert I like.....he's badass....... But I would respect him pre-rebellion....... Cause after rebellion he doesn't respect himself till his dying moments......

Renly is a mixed bag for me ....... But I tend to like him....... He's cool........ But a fool to go against Stannis....

[nyser1]

I think there are aspects of all three you could respect. I want to go with Stannis but how he handled the situation with Renly makes me go with Robert, despite his horrible ruling.

 

Yes yes Stannis was the legal heir. However, what was best for the realm and Baratheon family when your brother has ~100,000 troops and you have <5,000? Make that Iron malleable.

[Targknight]

I hate all of them.

Robert: Drunk, & a coward

Stannis: A religious fanatic

Renly: A backstabber

[Rose of Red Lake]

I liked how, on his death bed, Robert recognized that he was a bad king, and I felt for him when he said he was as "bad as Aerys." Ned's reassurances that he wasn't was really touching. I liked all their scenes, they really crackled in the writing.

I dont dislike Stannis but I will enjoy when he dies because his fanbase is mostly fanboys who communicate through memes.

I like Renly (he reminds me of Sansa) but he was seriously underdeveloped.