Which of Baratheon brothers you respect the most

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 4/7/2020 at 6:53 AM, CassDarry said:

has a strong seed

really

[R2D]

Renly and Stannis together have the best capacity for humour, it's a shame that Robert drags down their whole House.

[illrede]

On 4/5/2020 at 7:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Battle does not work like that. Lets start of simple

Do you think 2 people fighting a 1,000 would see an equal amount of casualties from each side, assuming the 2 were trained and equipped to the same, or a lesser, standard than the 1,000.

There are not going to be an equal amount of casualties when a 20k army faces a 5k army. The 20k would suffer far fewer casualties.

Stannis's side would quickly get overwhelmed, as Renly said many of Stannis' sellswords may switch sides, just like many of Stannis' supporters did in the Battle of Blackwater.

There is unlikely to be 7,000 casualties from such a battle.

I genuinely don't know the point you are trying to make here, I'm just focussing on the flaws in your numbers and perception of casualties in battle.

I recommend that you hunt down a volume of Jonathon Sumption's History of the Hundred Years War. It'll be a revelation to you. Renly was about to try a weird fusion of Crecy and Agincourt- he had not only removed his infantry from the battle (by out-marching them), he was going to charge his cavalry into prepared positions, into a rising sun, across sodden ground, under an impetuous commander. He could not have methodically destroyed an initially advantaged position better if he had tried- these are the conditions for a disaster- yes, even at those odds. The precedents are good.

The precedent I can think of that could have saved him is a garrison sortie.

[nyser1]

There is nothing to suggest that this would be anything like Agincourt. Also remember that Stannis is besieging Storm's End. He would likely be enveloped by Renly's attack force, let alone with the garrison coming out..

[R2D]

1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

There is nothing to suggest that this would be anything like Agincourt. Also remember that Stannis is besieging Storm's End. He would likely be enveloped by Renly's attack force, let alone with the garrison coming out..

Right.

Stannis: *Has the weaker army, is outnumbered 1:4, can be hit in the flanks by Renly' garrison*

People: He would have WON! Because Lightbringer in the eyes something something 

[illrede]

2 hours ago, nyser1 said:

There is nothing to suggest that this would be anything like Agincourt. Also remember that Stannis is besieging Storm's End. He would likely be enveloped by Renly's attack force, let alone with the garrison coming out..

The Agincourt part is the ground. Otherwise it's Crecy... or either of the two battles that didn't happen before Crecy that you would remember instead of Crecy, on account of it being a fundamental that you never charge prepared positions with cavalry. What finally happened to Philippe VI was that it was politically impossible for him to avoid battle again, his authority was coming apart. And the garrison coming out isn't certain, it's just Renly's only chance.

[R2D]

2 minutes ago, illrede said:

The Agincourt part is the ground. Otherwise it's Crecy... or either of the two battles that didn't happen before Crecy that you would remember instead of Crecy, on account of it being a fundamental that you never charge prepared positions with cavalry. What finally happened to Philippe VI was that it was politically impossible for him to avoid battle again, his authority was coming apart. And the garrison coming out isn't certain, it's just Renly's only chance.

Don't be silly.

Renly would have won 9/10 times.

[illrede]

1 minute ago, R2D said:

Don't be silly.

Renly would have won 9/10 times.

That's not what was set up; I believe the point is to give you enough cause to make you wonder if Stannis really had to rely on Melisandre- it's the same situation with Penrose later.

[R2D]

Just now, illrede said:

That's not what was set up; I believe the point is to give you enough cause to make you wonder if Stannis really had to rely on Melisandre- it's the same situation with Penrose later.

Then GRRM has no understanding of battle. 

[illrede]

24 minutes ago, R2D said:

Then GRRM has no understanding of battle. 

There were terms that Ser Penrose might have accepted (primarily based around Edric Storm); Storms End was winnable (primarily based on Renly's actions- it was as if he had a checklist for how to throw away his advantages and was working down it)

[R2D]

Just now, illrede said:

There were terms that Ser Penrose might have accepted (primarily based around Edric Storm); Storms End was winnable (primarily based on Renly's actions- it was as if he had a checklist for how to throw away his advantages and was working down it)

Well that's the thing. Stannis needed Edric and as long as he wanted him Penrose wasn't going to surrender. 

Storms End was not winnable unless he killed Renly which has a very slim chance of happening. Renly's vanguard alone could overwhelm Stannis. Stannis has nowhere to retreat, he has a castle at his back, his men are of poorer quality, there's not even a hint he has any defenses set up which people like to bring up (like sharpened spikes or earthworks). Half his army were sellswords and not loyal, so you could even get mass defections or surrender when Renly bore his knights down on his army, just like in the Blackwater. Stannis has poor conscripted fisherfolk, not top class infantry. His archers are not equal to the English longbowmen.

Stannis' only real advantage was the sun. Which is hardly anything significant and can be blocked by clouds or even the looming Storm's End.

[Trigger Warning]

4 hours ago, illrede said:

The Agincourt part is the ground. Otherwise it's Crecy... or either of the two battles that didn't happen before Crecy that you would remember instead of Crecy, on account of it being a fundamental that you never charge prepared positions with cavalry. What finally happened to Philippe VI was that it was politically impossible for him to avoid battle again, his authority was coming apart. And the garrison coming out isn't certain, it's just Renly's only chance.

 

Agincourt was fought on freshly ploughed ground hemmed in on both sides by dense forest not "rain-sodden fields", Crecy was fought on a hill protected on the flanks by two villages and a river, straight from the start both of these battles are so fundamentally different from Storm's End that the comparison is ridiculous, the Battle of the Golden spurs might be what you're searching for but again, the comparison is skin deep. The entire reason Crecy and Agincourt were such lopsided victories was because the terrain narrowed the front denying the French use of their numerical advantages, Stannis is sat in front of a fortress that's so large his army "looked as small and insignificant as mice with banners." in front of it, in what way can an open field big enough to hold such a fortress deny Renly's army the ability to envelop him? 

Stannis camp is described as a "tidy little camp beneath the castle" and was constructed under the watch of the garrison of Storm's End, neither the garrison nor anyone in Renly's army makes mention of Stannis creating any formidable earthworks or defences but lets for a second assume that he has done, does that means he wins? Do you think all failed cavalry charges result in lopsided victories? No, knights are perfectly capable of fighting on foot and Renly has a huge army with reserves, again at Agincourt the French were hemmed in and had to advance straight ahead and at Crecy they engaged piecemeal coming up from the road through retreating crossbowmen because they lacked terrain to manoeuvre on. Renly has no such disadvantage, the fact that you're even suggesting the sally of the garrison is Renly's "only chance" is so ridiculously biased that I'm sure this argument isn't even worth continuing. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 2/24/2020 at 4:39 PM, Putin said:

So we have Robert , Stannis  and Renly.

We know about their deeds in books , personality , appearance , history , behaviour.

So which one of those 3 you respect the most ?

Respect is too strong of a word . I like Robert .

[S. D]

I guess Stannis has the most on his resume. But I like Renly the most.

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, S. D said:

I guess Stannis has the most on his resume. But I like Renly the most.

Surely Robert has the most impressive CV. Toppled a 300-year dynasty, the only non Targaryen ruler of Westeros. Victor of two civil wars.

Stannis might do better than Robert, but currently there is a reason why Stannis resents the pedestal others have put Robert on.

Poor Renly. At 21 he had the world at his feet, ruler of the Stormlands for a number of years, Master of Law for a couple and was about to become King of Westeros until magic interjected itself into the story.

It goes Robert, Stannis and Renly, but Renly would probably have outshone his older brothers had he lived.

[illrede]

On 8/1/2020 at 11:49 PM, Trigger Warning said:

 

Agincourt was fought on freshly ploughed ground hemmed in on both sides by dense forest not "rain-sodden fields", Crecy was fought on a hill protected on the flanks by two villages and a river, straight from the start both of these battles are so fundamentally different from Storm's End that the comparison is ridiculous, the Battle of the Golden spurs might be what you're searching for but again, the comparison is skin deep. The entire reason Crecy and Agincourt were such lopsided victories was because the terrain narrowed the front denying the French use of their numerical advantages, Stannis is sat in front of a fortress that's so large his army "looked as small and insignificant as mice with banners." in front of it, in what way can an open field big enough to hold such a fortress deny Renly's army the ability to envelop him? 

Stannis camp is described as a "tidy little camp beneath the castle" and was constructed under the watch of the garrison of Storm's End, neither the garrison nor anyone in Renly's army makes mention of Stannis creating any formidable earthworks or defences but lets for a second assume that he has done, does that means he wins? Do you think all failed cavalry charges result in lopsided victories? No, knights are perfectly capable of fighting on foot and Renly has a huge army with reserves, again at Agincourt the French were hemmed in and had to advance straight ahead and at Crecy they engaged piecemeal coming up from the road through retreating crossbowmen because they lacked terrain to manoeuvre on. Renly has no such disadvantage, the fact that you're even suggesting the sally of the garrison is Renly's "only chance" is so ridiculously biased that I'm sure this argument isn't even worth continuing. 

We are discussing something that didn't happen (and in a place that doesn't exist, at that), but the thing that didn't happen is set up like this:

The ground is anomalously bad, described as rain sodden fields and stony ridges* (Renly's camp is anchored with one itself, people are using them**).

Renly does not have huge reserves. He has something on the order of 10,000 cavalry*** (although maybe 15,000 plus the Tyrells, Stannis has near 20,000 after this, but we are given a number at the time and that number is 10,000) and must give battle immediately or withdraw****. Renly could have had huge reserves, but he doesn't. He could have had control of his own timing, but he doesn't. Stannis has 5,000 men, primarily infantry with some hoblars.

Renly does not have the material option to envelop Stannis' army****.

There is no plan beyond an initial cavalry charge into the sun (explicitly so, when these points were raised altering them was rejected. Also bear in mind this was Stannis' plan, that he fed Renly during their parlay)*****.

Loras Tyrell commands the van.

 

I believe that Crecy is the battle to keep in mind because Renly has removed both the choice of timing from his plans and his reserves from the field of battle (although while Philippe's urgency was political, Renly's are material.). Also repeated cavalry charges (and that a cavalry charge that fails, followed by a force that wheels due to skill, but then conducts another cavalry charge because there is no other plan- which fails) seems to be the likely way Renly's part of the battle is going to go, if things don't fall apart on his end. Mostly because the person with ability to change the plan on the pointy end is Loras Tyrell and I don't think that he is going to.

So it's not going to work. Then they're wheeling and charging again on sodden ground. And if they're attacking on foot it's through mud and that's if somebody organizes them to do it, which may not happen. Again, Loras commands the van. He'll do for Alencon.

Ser Penrose's potential contribution should be the only thing adding confidence here since the narrative left Bitterbridge, the other details provided serve to diminish Renly's chances in understood ways. Stannis is hit in the flank or rear by a competent force (described as a strong garrison), and he probably loses. We anticipate seeing Penrose do this (because it's just what is done- even into a losing battle******- and we aren't given anything to suggest that he wouldn't) but bear in mind we do see at least some of Renly's council and the possibility isn't raised. When it happens, the comment to make would be "Not even Renly could throw away ALL of his chances at Storm's End- he sure as hell did his best trying to, though!". If for some reason it didn't happen he's screwed.

While there may be further details that if provided could serve to reverse this impression, where information is filled in it is of the nature that looking back at the situation afterward the reader doubts that Stannis didn't have path to victory- and that path provided by Renly.

*"Across rain-sodden fields and stony ridges, she could see the great castle of Storm's End rearing up against the sky, its back to the unseen sea. (Beneath that mass of pale grey stone, the encircling army of Lord Stannis Baratheon looked as small and insignificant as mice with banners)."

**"Their camp was well sited atop a low stony ridge that ran from north to south. It was far more orderly than the sprawling encampment on the Mander, though only a quarter as large. When he'd learned of his brother's assault on Storm's End, Renly had split his forces, much as Robb had done at the Twins. His great mass of foot he had left behind at Bitterbridge with his young queen, his wagons, carts, draft animals, and all his cumbersome siege machinery, while Renly himself led his knights and freeriders in a swift dash east."

***"As the long fingers of dawn fanned across the fields, color was returning to the world. Where grey men had say grey horses armed with shadow spears, the points of ten thousand lances now glinted silvery cold, and on the myriad flapping banners Catelyn saw the blush of red and pink and orange, the richness of blues and browns, the blaze of gold and yellow."

****"How like his brother Robert he was, even in that... only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution. Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his WHOLE force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind with all his wagons and mules and oxen. He MUST come to battle soon, or starve."

*****"I want every man in place by first light, armed, armored, and horsed. we shall give Stannis a dawn he will not soon forget."/"Chosen by Stannis," Randyll Tarly pointed out. "He'd have us charge into the teeth of a the rising sun. We'll be Half-blind."/"Only until first shock," Renly said confidently. "Ser Loras will break them, and after that it will be chaos."

******The Whispering Wood is La Roche-Derrien, btw