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Which of Baratheon brothers you respect the most

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

True but in comparison to burning people alive or beggaring the realm it doesn't seem like much. 

Meh, except Alester and the man who Stannis burned alive because he was a 7 believer, i don't really mind them. And we all know that LF had a hand or ten in beggaring thing.

 

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Probably Renly, but only because he died young and didn’t get the opportunity to do anything truly terrible. 

Robert was a wife beating rapist, who beggared the realm, and was either too drunk or too distracted by his whores, such that he failed to see the disastrous state he was leaving the realm in when he passed. 

Stannis is an unbending authoritarian, and a kinslayer, who’s happy to stoke the fires of religious zealotry if it serves him and his cause. He’s burned priceless and ancient cultural artefacts, and holy sites, forced religious conversion on entire populations, burned his uncle alive for suggesting peace, and would have burned his entirely innocent nephew if Davos hadn’t stolen the boy away. 

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24 minutes ago, frenin said:

Meh, except Alester and the man who Stannis burned alive because he was a 7 believer, i don't really mind them. And we all know that LF had a hand or ten in beggaring thing.

 

To each his own & there are reasons for everything but to me someone who did not order people to be burned alive > someone who did & someone who did not have a hand in beggaring the realm > someone who did. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Did he? I don't remember him thinking Brienne was absurd. Or getting his thoughts at all on Brienne. 

"Renly thought she was absurd. A woman dressed in man's mail, pretending to be a knight." - ASoS, Jaime Ⅷ

 

 

Said Loras to Jaime.  While it wasn't really nice of him, it doesn't say anywhere in the books that Renly went around ridiculing Brienne behind her back. I think he mostly kept his thoughts to himself and only told Loras during pillow talk.

 

“I asked him why he kept her close, if he thought her so grotesque. He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches, but all that Brienne wanted was to die for him."

 

He also said this, so one can argue that Renly was only nice to Brienne for his benefit but he still was courteous to her (at least on the outside) and acknowledged her skill and loyalty. So even though he didn't think much of Brienne, he still treated her like a human being.

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7 minutes ago, shameeka said:

"Renly thought she was absurd. A woman dressed in man's mail, pretending to be a knight." - ASoS, Jaime Ⅷ

 

 

Said Loras to Jaime.  While it wasn't really nice of him, it doesn't say anywhere in the books that Renly went around ridiculing Brienne behind her back. I think he mostly kept his thoughts to himself and only told Loras during pillow talk.

 

“I asked him why he kept her close, if he thought her so grotesque. He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches, but all that Brienne wanted was to die for him."

 

He also said this, so one can argue that Renly was only nice to Brienne for his benefit but he still was courteous to her (at least on the outside) and acknowledged her skill and loyalty. So even though he didn't think much of Brienne, he still treated her like a human being.

Thanks for the quote. I had forgotten that. 

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24 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

burned his uncle alive for suggesting peace, 

But Stannis didn’t burn him for suggesting peace... Alester first ignored the NW asking for help, w/o informing Stannis. Then the he makes a deal w/ the Lannisters in Stannis name, behind his back, where Stannis is supposed to surrender, give up his claim, and marry Shireen to Tommen (I think it was Tommen). So, he was burned for treason. :dunno:

Stannis is deeply flawed, but so are Robert and Renly. And of the 3 of them I respect Stannis more, w/ Renly probably coming 3rd, which is saying a lot since I don’t like Robert. 

Stannis is also one of the only meritocrats  we’ve seen in the story, Jon being the other one. In this world this alone earns him lots of brownie points from me. 

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But Stannis didn’t burn him for suggesting peace... Alester first ignored the NW asking for help, w/o informing Stannis. Then the he makes a deal w/ the Lannisters in Stannis name, behind his back, where Stannis is supposed to surrender, give up his claim, and marry Shireen to Tommen (I think it was Tommen). So, he was burned for treason.

I guess we’ll have to disagree on this... he was the King’s Hand, he tried to make peace with pretty generous terms for both Stannis and himself. Stannis viewed it as treason, Alester saw it as just being realistic. Regardless, I don’t think it was deserving of a death penalty, and certainly not death by being burnt alive. 

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Probably Stannis because of his dry humor. The Baratheon brothers generally speaking are assholes. Renly was already plotting to upend the realm by bringing Margaery to King's Landing and dangling her in front of his lech of a brother, then crowned himself king. Stannis is petty and jealous of the relationship between Ned and Robert and took himself to Dragonstone after Jon Arryn's death rather than confront the Cersei problem head on and pick up where he and Jon Arryn left off, but with Ned this time. And Robert is a drunk, a whore, a wife beating rapist, an awful father, and he didn't seem to give a shit about the realm or anything, really. 

But this seems to be House Baratheon in a nutshell. Fire and Blood didn't always paint them in the best of light either.

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40 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Probably Stannis because of his dry humor. The Baratheon brothers generally speaking are assholes. Renly was already plotting to upend the realm by bringing Margaery to King's Landing and dangling her in front of his lech of a brother, then crowned himself king. Stannis is petty and jealous of the relationship between Ned and Robert and took himself to Dragonstone after Jon Arryn's death rather than confront the Cersei problem head on and pick up where he and Jon Arryn left off, but with Ned this time. And Robert is a drunk, a whore, a wife beating rapist, an awful father, and he didn't seem to give a shit about the realm or anything, really. 

But this seems to be House Baratheon in a nutshell. Fire and Blood didn't always paint them in the best of light either.

To be fair to Stannis, I don't know that I would want to stick around after what happened to Jon Arryn & it appears he was correct after what happened to Ned. 

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If it wasn't for Stannis allowing Mel to burn people, it would be easily Stannis and I'm also not a fan of religious fanaticism. So it's a little bit harder, but still Stannis.

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Well, as my name suggests, I'm a Renly fan.. 

I respect Renly because he worked to decrease the Lannister influence in King's Landing. He did this three ways: a) By replacing Cersei with Margaery b) By asking Ned to sieze Joffrey and the other Lannister children to check Cersei and when his options ran out c) By declaring himself King.

I think his comments on Shireen and Brienne get taken out of proportion. Renly doesn't insult Shireen and Brienne to be malicious, he's simply someone who likes mocking anyone and anything (other people he mocks are Ilyn Payne, Littlefinger, Cersei, Joffrey, Selyse and Stannis) and in the Shireen comment he was mostly going after Stannis and Shireen was just a by-blow. The text presents him as someone who doesn't take anything seriously...in comparison to Stannis who takes everything too seriously. 

I only started respecting Stannis after he lost the Battle of the Blackwater and went to the North. Stannis needed a serious humbling, at the start of ACOK he would have basically been a tyrant if he became king. He grows into someone who truly cares for his people and the character growth is nothing short of amazing.

I do somewhat like Robert, but I don't respect him at all. 

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18 hours ago, fire&blood said:

Just here to see all the Stannis stans go ape about how awesome he is :fencing:

I wanna see them. I've heard tales, but never encountered them myself. I think they exist just in the songs :wub:

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14 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robert stole nothing, he fought to survive a mad man that wanted his head for no reason and a horny entitled prince that stole his bride... the fact that he had the best claim after those lunatics were just his bad luck... Robert never wanted the throne and hated being king.

I don't like Robert, but he definitely didn't steal anything. He fought a war and won.

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2 hours ago, shameeka said:

He also said this, so one can argue that Renly was only nice to Brienne for his benefit but he still was courteous to her (at least on the outside) and acknowledged her skill and loyalty. So even though he didn't think much of Brienne, he still treated her like a human being.

Not really sure that is true. Brienne being in his Kingsguard does not benefit Renly, it diminishes his Kingsguard in the eyes of others, as well as the eyes of the other KG members.

He respected a woman and offered her something that few other men would.

In their society she is ridiculous, Renly acknowledging that in private company is not a sin.

 

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13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not really sure that is true. Brienne being in his Kingsguard does not benefit Renly, it diminishes his Kingsguard in the eyes of others, as well as the eyes of the other KG members.

He respected a woman and offered her something that few other men would.

In their society she is ridiculous, Renly acknowledging that in private company is not a sin.

 

Renly had great people skills, and was conceited enough and vain enough to think he could get away w/ pretty much anything. It probably amused him to have Brienne in his KG for a number of reasons. 

But more importantly, it’s not like he named Brienne to the KG. She won the melee.

ACoK, Catelyn II

“She heard King Renly declare the Lady Brienne of Tarth the victor of the great melee at Bitterbridge, last mounted of one hundred sixteen knights. “As champion, you may ask of me any boon that you desire. If it lies in my power, it is yours.”
“Your Grace,” Brienne answered, “I ask the honor of a place among your Rainbow Guard. I would be one of your seven, and pledge my life to yours, to go where you go, ride at your side, and keep you safe from all hurt and harm.”
“Done,” he said. “Rise, and remove your helm.”

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20 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Renly had great people skills, and was conceited enough and vain enough to think he could get away w/ pretty much anything. It probably amused him to have Brienne in his KG for a number of reasons. 

But more importantly, it’s not like he named Brienne to the KG. She won the melee.

ACoK, Catelyn II

“She heard King Renly declare the Lady Brienne of Tarth the victor of the great melee at Bitterbridge, last mounted of one hundred sixteen knights. “As champion, you may ask of me any boon that you desire. If it lies in my power, it is yours.”
“Your Grace,” Brienne answered, “I ask the honor of a place among your Rainbow Guard. I would be one of your seven, and pledge my life to yours, to go where you go, ride at your side, and keep you safe from all hurt and harm.”
“Done,” he said. “Rise, and remove your helm.”

He could have easily rejected her. What do you think would have happened if he did?

This is a pretty sexist society, no one is going to hold it against Renly if he does not make a female warrior a member of his Kingsguard.

When Renly donned his crown, the Maid of Tarth had ridden all the way across the Reach to join him. The king himself had greeted her courteously and welcomed her to his service. Not so his lords and knights. Brienne had not expected a warm welcome. She was prepared for coldness, for mockery, for hostility. She had supped upon such meat before. It was not the scorn of the many that left her confused and vulnerable, but the kindness of the few.

Renly likely lost respect from some allowing her to join his Kingsguard.

Brienne had known Renly for half a decade, he'd always treated her with respect and humanity.

 

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15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He could have easily rejected her. What do you think would have happened if he did?

 Renly is trying to depose his brother’s “rightful” heir and take the IT for himself. He very much depends on the nobility in general seeing him as someone who is reliable and sticks to his word.  And he told Brienne she could have anything she wanted that was within his power to give her. 

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Brienne had known Renly for half a decade, he'd always treated her with respect and humanity.

While trash-talking and mocking her behind her back. I don’t really see that as either respectful or humane. But to each their own. 

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5 hours ago, Putin said:

What did Renly speak about Brienne ?

 

The younger man started for the door. But there he turned back. “Renly thought she was absurd. A woman dressed in man’s mail, pretending to be a knight.”

“If he’d ever seen her in pink satin and Myrish lace, he would not have complained.”

“I asked him why he kept her close, if he thought her so grotesque. He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches, but all that Brienne wanted was to die for him.

5 hours ago, Putin said:

 What makes Robert so much better than Renly in your opinion ?

 

Robert was fighting for his life, the throne was not his concern and only came because he had the next best claim afte the crazy family, Renly on the other hand was willing to kill his brother and nephew to become king of a throne he had no right over it. Renly had no respect for the law or for the people.

5 hours ago, Putin said:

 Can you explain reasons why you consider Stannis so selfish.

Sure. Stannis only thinks of himself, he says that Robb conquered the Riverlands and usurped him... he not even have send his claim, and Robb was the only one defending the riverlands from Tywin.

Stannis knew that Robert life was in danger but instead of warning him he fleed the city and waited for his brother to die... during this he also got angry when Robert named Ned as HoTK.

When he goes north to save the wall, we complains about none of the northem houses sending him any support, but he only demand their loyalty without giving them anything while demanding them to die for a lost cause, he is a weird  hostile foreing in their land, that is burning their sacred trees.

Stannis only thinks of himself, he never asks what he can do for the people next to him, but demand them to die for him, he is just as selfish as Cersei.

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15 hours ago, frenin said:

On the other hand he does mocks his own niece... That's like -3000000000000000 points.

Isn't his mocking of her basically just giving a physical description of her?  Compared to Stannis's general treatment of individuals around him that is pretty mild.

edit: Not to mention, how Stannis was on his way to burning his nephew alive if not for Davos.

 

Quote

Stannis is also one of the only meritocrats  we’ve seen in the story, Jon being the other one. In this world this alone earns him lots of brownie points from me. 

2

What meritocratic decision has Stannis made?  First, he named his in-laws to the position of Hand, Castellan, and Lord Admiral.  He followed it up by appointing his only friend, who is also barely literate, to be his new Hand.  All while his chief advisor is his mistress.  Stannis is frankly massively nepotistic.

Quote

While trash-talking and mocking her behind her back. I don't really see that as either respectful or humane.  But to each their own.

Renly didn't really trash talk or mock her behind her back.  He simply expressed a common societal value in a private conversation while talking with his angry lover.  Furthermore, he immediately followed it by expressing what he saw was her great worth.

Jaime and Loras are the ones that are mocking her in that conversation.  

Edited by Minsc

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