Which of Baratheon brothers you respect the most

[Peach King]

10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He wouldn't have known who's screams they were.

For whom? I guess the deciding factor would be if Renly was rash enough to attack at break of day without checking to see what Stannis had been doing the night before.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I know nothing about medieval history as I said. But do armies really do a single mass charge? Doesn't the van attack first, then they see what happens, then they go for a second round. 

There's just no proof Stannis was doing anything is all.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 minutes ago, Peach King said:

But do armies really do a single mass charge?

Well the french were masters of doing this shit in our history. Golden Spurs is an example but so would Clercy and of course Agincourt. The thing is that a slight feint will not achieve any similar results. The power of the mass cavalry charge is that it can break the enemy and rout entire armies. If they get bogged down in melee combat, cavalry becomes really weak. So a van feint never really shows anything, as such in many cases they just attacked with everything they had. Had they done that here, in a narrow front with little visibility against fortified spearmen they would have been obliterated. The question mark here is Renly's plan. Was he attempting a mass charge to break Stannis, or a double envelopment. Given the terrain and Renly's hubris and certainty, I tend to think he was going to try and mass cavalry charge Stannis, which could mean a Stannis victory.

[Adam Targaryen]

Stannis.

 

 

Robert is worthy of some respect since he is a great warrior and has at least kept Westeros in a state of peace during his reign. But he has also made many mistakes and allowed the realm to degenerate and wasted the money and everything.

 

Renly is worthy of little respect since he has done very little for the realm and just brings it into chaos by declaring himself king without any right to do so whatsoever. He just chooses to ignore Stannis' claim because Stannis doesn't have a charming personality. That is an absurd and extremely bad reason for claiming oneself to be a king, and he also owes Stannis his life and much else.

 

Stannis is a worthy warrior, a great tactician and someone who has always been respectful towards others and done his duty even when he did not like it. He is the rightful king and he fights for it and later for the realm itself and the Starks, even though he may not like it. He endures great hardship with an iron constitution for the good of the realm and his just claim to the throne. Etc etc... Obviously much more could be said but yeah. Obviously Stannis has some bad sides but they are justified by his bad position which forces him to become reliant on R'hllor. If Renly had not betrayed him he might not have become like that since he would have had all of the Stormlands' army, which should have been his from the beginning.

[Trigger Warning]

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well the french were masters of doing this shit in our history. Golden Spurs is an example but so would Clercy and of course Agincourt. The thing is that a slight feint will not achieve any similar results. The power of the mass cavalry charge is that it can break the enemy and rout entire armies. If they get bogged down in melee combat, cavalry becomes really weak. So a van feint never really shows anything, as such in many cases they just attacked with everything they had. Had they done that here, in a narrow front with little visibility against fortified spearmen they would have been obliterated. The question mark here is Renly's plan. Was he attempting a mass charge to break Stannis, or a double envelopment. Given the terrain and Renly's hubris and certainty, I tend to think he was going to try and mass cavalry charge Stannis, which could mean a Stannis victory.

He has 20,000 men with a friendly fortress sitting at the rear of his enemy. At Crecy and Agincourt the English had favourable ground as did the Flemish at the Golden spurs. Stannis definitely doesn't have a favourable ground, he's on an open plain with enemies to the rear and if for whatever reason Stannis' men were able to repel a mass charge whilst not breaking from being attacked in the rear then Renly's men can just dismount and take their time, he has a vanguard, centre and wings. They aren't all going to get bogged down in a single charge that would be ridiculous. . Agincourt and Crecy are the exception not the rule and Stannis lacks the advantages that the English held at those battles. 
 

This potential battle has been done to death but I think I hit some good points here a few years ago. 

[frenin]

16 hours ago, Adam Targaryen said:

Obviously Stannis has some bad sides but they are justified by his bad position which forces him to become reliant on R'hllor. If Renly had not betrayed him he might not have become like that since he would have had all of the Stormlands' army, which should have been his from the beginning.

Don't really know how they are justified, if Renly had not betrayed him we wouldn't have seen his true faceand his limits. Nor i know why the Stormlands should've been his from the beginning, their liege is Renly, not Stannis.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 2/26/2020 at 1:08 AM, Putin said:

Yes Renly had done the least damage but surprisingly people (readers) don´t really like him, 

This is the internet. No extroverts allowed.

[Trigger Warning]

On 2/25/2020 at 12:08 PM, Putin said:

Yes Renly had done the least damage but surprisingly people (readers) don´t really like him, 

It's the Stannis factor, time and time again people argue that Renly should have done the "honourable" and "lawful" thing and backed Stannis when in reality if he were to do that he shouldn't have rebelled at all and simply supported Joffrey, the arguments always revolve around him usurping Stannis when in reality they should be about usurping Robert's children, Stannis' claim was an afterthought to Renly yet threads about Renly are always Stannis, Stannis, Stannis. 

I don't particularly care about Renly but I think a large amount of my posts on here are just defending him because he's some sort of boogeyman to the Stannis fanbase though to be honest it does generate some funny discussion when every mole hill for Renly becomes a mountain and Stannis' mountains just disappear. 

Inb4 anyone says Renly knew Joff was a bastard I'm gonna say it's dumb that he'd try and usurp him without mentioning that, link this thread and leave it at that. 

 

I think I needed to vent a bit there. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

It's the Stannis factor, time and time again people argue that Renly should have done the "honourable" and "lawful" thing and backed Stannis when in reality if he were to do that he shouldn't have rebelled at all and simply supported Joffrey, the arguments always revolve around him usurping Stannis when in reality they should be about usurping Robert's children, Stannis' claim was an afterthought to Renly yet threads about Renly are always Stannis, Stannis, Stannis. 

I don't particularly care about Renly but I think a large amount of my posts on here are just defending him because he's some sort of boogeyman to the Stannis fanbase though to be honest it does generate some funny discussion when every mole hill for Renly becomes a mountain and Stannis' mountains just disappear. 

Inb4 anyone says Renly knew Joff was a bastard I'm gonna say it's dumb that he'd try and usurp him without mentioning that, link this thread and leave it at that. 

As a Stannis fan I full heartedly agree with you. Renly simply didn't care about anything like bastardy or succession. For him Stannis was just a pretender like himself, he didn't bother with who is older or who has the right to the Throne. He was an opportunist, plain and simple.

Just a sidenote however, I've never actually seen him portrayed as a boogeyman, just as a major lost chance of Stannis to quickly end the war.

And yes Renly clearly didn't know that Joff was a bastard, he even thinks it's just Stannis's propaganda in ACOK.

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

This is the internet. No extroverts allowed.

 Lmao.

But a bit more seriously, we know little  about him and what we see is just him being a incredible  asshole, with no qualms  about murdering his own brother.

Robert is just a very excuse of a man an a depressed one but those who loved  him or knew him before he became a excuse of a man, besides he got to be King.

 

Stannis, besides being imo the worst of the trio, connects with a very large part of the fandom, you nailed  one of the reasons why he does, he has Davos and is the one who gets to live  and change.

 

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

 Lmao.

But a bit more seriously, we know little  about him and what we see is just him being a incredible  asshole, with no qualms  about murdering his own brother.

eh? Are you kidding?

Renly, despite Stannis attacking his home and being vastly outnumbered, went to Stannis to talk peace. He offered Stannis Storm's End and Stannis threatened to destroy him. Stannis forced the issue, not Renly.

If Renly had no qualms about murdering his brother he would have done so without trying to negotiate peace.

And he clearly does have qualms about killing his brother. Him refusing to fight before the agreed upon time and him ordering no one to mutilate Stannis' body is evidence of this. We don't see the same from Stannis' POV.

 

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As a Stannis fan I full heartedly agree with you. Renly simply didn't care about anything like bastardy or succession. For him Stannis was just a pretender like himself, he didn't bother with who is older or who has the right to the Throne. He was an opportunist, plain and simple.

I agree he was an opportunist, but not entirely so. Cersei gaining power was a genuine threat to his life. He was happy to see Joffrey as King, Ned as Regent if it meant removing Cersei from power. That was his first choice.

 

23 hours ago, frenin said:

Don't really know how they are justified, if Renly had not betrayed him

Renly did not betray him, at least not according to what has been said in the text so far.

 

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

Robert is worthy of some respect since he is a great warrior and has at least kept Westeros in a state of peace during his reign.

He's been the only non Targ King in 300 years of rule, won two civil wars and had a pretty relaxed and prosperous (with one blip) 15 year reign.

He's deserving of more than 'some' respect. Everything his brothers have and have achieved is from his generosity and support. If Robert was never King they'd both be household knights with even bigger chips on their shoulders, much like the brothers of Rogar Baratheon.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

 

But he has also made many mistakes and allowed the realm to degenerate and wasted the money and everything.

Not sure how the realm degenerated under his rule?

As for money, this is more complicated that people seem to assume. For one Kings like Henry V, who left a full treasury, was not the norm. Most kings wasted money and left the coffers pretty low for their successors. A full treasury often meant a greedy king over taxing his subjects.

As for waste, debatable. Tourneys and feasts are good for a realms economy and prosperity. Something that is pretty important for a new dynasty. And while Littlefinger does seem to have been ripping off the crown, it should also be noted that he was putting much money back into the economy, loaning money to merchants and new business's.

 

As for the debt, there is a practical reason for that, though it will likely never be touched upon in series. New Kingdoms/dynasties that get into a debt often do so to add legitimacy to their reign. It shows that they are recognized as rulers. The founding father's of America, despite being in charge of a hugely prosperous country, needed to make debt with other nations so to be recognized as a legitimate government.

Robert's Government taking on debt from the Faith, Lannisters, Tyrells and Braavos (amongst others) was in part securing his crown.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

 

Renly is worthy of little respect since he has done very little for the realm

He ruled the Stormlands for 13 years, he has sat on the Small Council for around 3 years, seems to have ruled the realm while Robert was on his long journey North, Stannis at Dragonstone and Arryn dead.

At the age of 21 he has done quite a lot for the realm. His disadvantage seems to be

• not being old enough to command in the last two Rebellions
• being killed by magic in the War of the Five Kings

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

 

and just brings it into chaos by declaring himself king without any right to do so whatsoever.

Renly did not do that alone. Joffrey, Robb, Stannis, Tywin, Ned&Cat and Stannis all contributed to that as well.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

 

He just chooses to ignore Stannis' claim because Stannis doesn't have a charming personality.

No. He asks for evidence, Stannis does not give any.

Stannis declared after both Renly and Robb. If he wants people to believe he is the rightful King he has to offer something better than his word.

Had Stannis not stalled things may have been different, but both Renly and Robb had other men swear to them. Men who might not necessarily swear the same vows to Stannis.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

That is an absurd and extremely bad reason for claiming oneself to be a king, and he also owes Stannis his life and much else.

Much else? Please elaborate.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

 

Stannis is a worthy warrior,

We don't know that. This is a forum about book Stannis, not show Stannis.

Nothing in the books suggests that Stannis was particularly worthy as a warrior. Robert certainly was. Stannis may well have been the weakest of the three brothers in this regard.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

 

a great tactician

True.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

 

and someone who has always been respectful towards others

Untrue.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

 

and done his duty even when he did not like it.

No, not always. His duty would have been to warn Robert that his life was in danger, that he was cuckolded.

Stannis did his duty when it benefited him.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

 

He is the rightful king and he fights for it and later for the realm itself and the Starks, even though he may not like it.

How does he fight for the Starks?

He was willing to make Arnolf Karstark the Lord of Winterfell. That is not fighting for the Starks, that is simply putting anyone in charge of Winterfell who will serve him.

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Renly, despite Stannis attacking his home and being vastly outnumbered, went to Stannis to talk peace. He offered Stannis Storm's End and Stannis threatened to destroy him. Stannis forced the issue, not Renly.

Renly was giving Stannis an ultimatum with some leeway. Do remember that Stannis offered the exact same terms to Renly. If we're being honest both brothers were prepared to kill each other. At least Stannis after the fact is genuinely sorry Renly died (if you say he killed him, please look a bit earlier in the conversation, we talked that to death). Maybe Renly would have felt the same, we don't know, but at least Stannis couldn't have been worse then Renly.

11 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

If Renly had no qualms about murdering his brother he would have done so without trying to negotiate peace.

And he clearly does have qualms about killing his brother. Him refusing to fight before the agreed upon time and him ordering no one to mutilate Stannis' body is evidence of this. We don't see the same from Stannis' POV.

He probably goes through the whole charade in order to not lose legitimacy. Any would be regime of his would already suffer from lack of legitimacy, he doesn't need fratricide to add to that.

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

As for money, this is more complicated that people seem to assume. For one Kings like Henry V, who left a full treasury, was not the norm. Most kings wasted money and left the coffers pretty low for their successors. A full treasury often meant a greedy king over taxing his subjects.

As for waste, debatable. Tourneys and feasts are good for a realms economy and prosperity. Something that is pretty important for a new dynasty. And while Littlefinger does seem to have been ripping off the crown, it should also be noted that he was putting much money back into the economy, loaning money to merchants and new business's.

 

As for the debt, there is a practical reason for that, though it will likely never be touched upon in series. New Kingdoms/dynasties that get into a debt often do so to add legitimacy to their reign. It shows that they are recognized as rulers. The founding father's of America, despite being in charge of a hugely prosperous country, needed to make debt with other nations so to be recognized as a legitimate government.

Robert's Government taking on debt from the Faith, Lannisters, Tyrells and Braavos (amongst others) was in part securing his crown.

Here you're probably right, though Littfinger was clearly ripping off the crown.

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Quote

 

and done his duty even when he did not like it.

No, not always. His duty would have been to warn Robert that his life was in danger, that he was cuckolded.

Stannis did his duty when it benefited him.

He probably though, and he was right that Robert wouldn't have believed him. If he was just acting out of self interest he would have publicly spilled the beans, therefore leaving 2 alternatives. 1. Robert believes him, and he becomes the heir or 2. Robert doesn't believe him, or doesn't act on it, however he wouldn't suffer anything from it (we're talking about Robert here after all) however he would badly delegitimize Joffrey and pave his way to becoming the next king. He waited so long because he wanted Robert to believe him and do what's right.

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Quote

 

He is the rightful king and he fights for it and later for the realm itself and the Starks, even though he may not like it.

How does he fight for the Starks?

He was willing to make Arnolf Karstark the Lord of Winterfell. That is not fighting for the Starks, that is simply putting anyone in charge of Winterfell who will serve him.

Well he does fight for Ned's little girl (or so he thinks), and do remember that without Jon abandoning his watch there are no more Starks to put in charge of Winterfell (except a supposed 9 year old girl).

[frenin]

28 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He probably though, and he was right that Robert wouldn't have believed him. If he was just acting out of self interest he would have publicly spilled the beans, therefore leaving 2 alternatives. 1. Robert believes him, and he becomes the heir or 2. Robert doesn't believe him, or doesn't act on it, however he wouldn't suffer anything from it (we're talking about Robert here after all) however he would badly delegitimize Joffrey and pave his way to becoming the next king. He waited so long because he wanted Robert to believe him and do what's right.

That was pure self interest and jealousy, He left Robert and Renly to die, he stole the royal fleet and start hiring sellswords for the moment the war erupted.

How can Robert believe him and "do what's right"... if he was never informed about the facts?? How do you even know that he was right?? 

If Robert believed him he'd marry asap and father trueborn kids or he could just legitimize Edric, but if Robert were to die without knowing the twincest that would effectively left Stannis as the sole heir...

 

 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Are you kidding?

Renly, despite Stannis attacking his home and being vastly outnumbered, went to Stannis to talk peace. He offered Stannis Storm's End and Stannis threatened to destroy him. Stannis forced the issue, not Renly.

If Renly had no qualms about murdering his brother he would have done so without trying to negotiate peace.

And he clearly does have qualms about killing his brother. Him refusing to fight before the agreed upon time and him ordering no one to mutilate Stannis' body is evidence of this. We don't see the same from Stannis' POV.

No, Stannis made the same offers and threats Renly made, neither of them wanted to become kinslayers but they were more than ready to do so. Renly himself does not even pretend he is bothered about it when talking to Cat.

Yes, he ordered that no one mutilated Stannis body, he did not order his men that they did their best to take him alive however and he was already assuming that Loras would gift him Stannis sword.

[Trigger Warning]

On 2/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

has always been respectful towards others

The guy that cries about Ned stealing the position of hand to his grieving widow in the same breath as offering his condolences? 

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Renly was giving Stannis an ultimatum with some leeway.

He did not threaten his life though, did not threaten to destroy him. Stannis does not want to recognize Renly as King the rest of the world was his oyster.

Quote

 

Do remember that Stannis offered the exact same terms to Renly.

No, this is demonstrably false.

Stannis was offered Storm's End and the Stormlands for joining Renly. Renly was offered nothing.

And Stannis needs Renly more than Renly needs Stannis. The guy with the 100k army is the one making concessions to the guy with the 5k army. One brother was going out of his way to try and find peace, Stannis would become the most powerful Lord in the realm in Renly's deal.

 

Quote

 

If we're being honest both brothers were prepared to kill each other.

No, Renly came in to negotiate. If he wanted to kill Stannis, who was attacking Storm's End, he could have easily done that without the parley.

Quote

 

At least Stannis after the fact is genuinely sorry Renly died

How is that 'at least'? One brother killed the other. He promised till dawn and attacked him before. One brother was honourable, the  other not.

Quote

 

(if you say he killed him, please look a bit earlier in the conversation, we talked that to death).

He was responsible for his death. There is a reason why he is peacefully asleep when everyone else is preparing for battle.

Quote

Maybe Renly would have felt the same, we don't know, but at least Stannis couldn't have been worse then Renly.

Sure he could. Stannis is having trouble sleeping, but refuses to admit his part he played in Renly's death and even blames Renly for it.

Why me, and not my brothers? Renly and his peach. In my dreams I see the juice running from his mouth, the blood from his throat. If he had done his duty by his brother, we would have smashed Lord Tywin. A victory even Robert could be proud of. Robert . . ."

He can't even be magnanimous about Renly's position after he had him murdered.

Quote

He probably goes through the whole charade in order to not lose legitimacy. Any would be regime of his would already suffer from lack of legitimacy, he doesn't need fratricide to add to that.

Stannis is attacking Storm's End, he had just reason to attack him. His own commanders were telling Renly to attack before Dawn, it was Renly who was telling them no.

 

Quote

 

He probably though, and he was right that Robert wouldn't have believed him.

He did not bother to try. Regardless if he thought Robert would not believe him, he had a duty to warn his King. He ignroed it.

Quote

 

If he was just acting out of self interest

You are moving the goal posts here. The claim was that Stannis was always dutiful, he was not. Him doing nothing while knowing his brother was in danger is not doing his duty.

Quote

Well he does fight for Ned's little girl (or so he thinks),

No, the Mountain Clans fight for Ned's little girl. Stannis does not care about Ned's little girls.

"If your children are found when I take the city, they shall be sent to you." Alive or dead, his tone implied.

Stannis barely cares about his own nephew, has zero interaction with his own daughter in the books. It is stretching the truth to say he cares about Ned's little girl. He is using the Mountain Clan's love for the Starks for his own gains.

Quote

and do remember that without Jon abandoning his watch there are no more Starks to put in charge of Winterfell (except a supposed 9 year old girl).

There are other Stark branches, as well as cousins in the Vale from Ned's great aunt. They would be next in line. Stannis, hypocrite that he sometimes is, does not care about these other branches being jumped in the succession line by a Bastard or a Karstark.

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

No, Stannis made the same offers and threats Renly made,

No, he did not.

• Renly offered Stannis the Lordship of Storm's End for Stannis and his 5k army to join him, essentially making Stannis the most powerful Lord in the realm with Storm's End and Dragonstone.
• Stannis offered Renly the chance to remain in the same position he was already in for his 100k arm to join him

They were not the same offers. Renly needed Stannis less, yet offered him far more.

 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

 

neither of them wanted to become kinslayers but they were more than ready to do so. Renly himself does not even pretend he is bothered about it when talking to Cat.

His brother attacked his home, threatened to destroy him. What was he supposed to do?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Yes, he ordered that no one mutilated Stannis body, he did not order his men that they did their best to take him alive however and he was already assuming that Loras would gift him Stannis sword.

What good would taking him alive be? Renly gave him a chance to surrender, he chose death.

[King17]

Robert simply because he defeated the Dragons something I do not believe stannis or Renly could ever have done.

 

 

[frenin]

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he did not.

• Renly offered Stannis the Lordship of Storm's End for Stannis and his 5k army to join him, essentially making Stannis the most powerful Lord in the realm with Storm's End and Dragonstone.
• Stannis offered Renly the chance to remain in the same position he was already in for his 100k arm to join him

They were not the same offers. Renly needed Stannis less, yet offered him far more.

Stannis named him his heir, Renly offered him Storm's End, I'd say they are even. Especially when neither of them were going to accept any terms but surrender.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

His brother attacked his home, threatened to destroy him. What was he supposed to do?

... Be bothered about the fact he's about to kill his own brother?? 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

What good would taking him alive be? Renly gave him a chance to surrender, he chose death.

What good would take not killing his brother?? Not killing his brother, What are you replying?? Nothing you're saying disproves the fact that Renly had no problems with Stannis's death. 

Stannis did not choose death, he chose defeat in combat,  Renly chose death for him.

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

Stannis named him his heir,

Until a son was born to him

Strike your banners and come to me before dawn, and I will grant you Storm's End and your old seat on the council and even name you my heir until a son is born to me. Otherwise, I shall destroy you."

He has not offered him anything Renly was not at the start of the day.

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

Renly offered him Storm's End, I'd say they are even.

Stannis did not offer him to be his heir. Renly was his heir according to the laws of the land until Stannis had a son.

Renly offered Stannis something tangible. Stannis did not.

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

Especially when neither of them were going to accept any terms but surrender.

I don't think that is true. Why would Renly enter into negotiations if he did not think Stannis would see sense.

5k vs 100k. The only reason Stannis does not accept is because he believes the prophesy of some foreign Sheila he just met. Most sane people would have gladly accepted his offer.

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

... Be bothered about the fact he's about to kill his own brother?? 

A brother who just threatened to destroy him?

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

What good would take not killing his brother?? Not killing his brother, What are you replying?? Nothing you're saying disproves the fact that Renly had no problems with Stannis's death. 

Of course he had problems, that is why he simply did not attack Stannis when he's attacking Storm's End. That is why he offered Stannis Storm's End for his 5k men.

Quite clearly Renly was not happy about killing Stannis because he had the means to do so.

Davos brings up an important part about Stannis' role in Renly's death

but Melisandre told me that if I went to Storm's End, I would win the best part of my brother's power, and she was right."

"B-but," Davos stammered, "Lord Renly only came here because you had laid siege to the castle. He was marching toward King's Landing before, against the Lannisters, he would have—"

Stannis shifted in his seat, frowning. "Was, would have, what is that? He did what he did. He came here with his banners and his peaches, to his doom . . . and it was well for me he did.

 

Stannis' sole reason for putting Storm's End under siege was because Melisandre told him that Renly would die there. He travelled home to see his brother die.  He does not try to offer Renly anything to get him to join.

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

Stannis did not choose death, he chose defeat in combat,  Renly chose death for him.

Stannis chose death. What do you think a battle is?

Stannis may have been allowed to live if her surrendered. Did he give any indication that he was going to do that in the last conversation he had with Renly?

You are going through quite a few hoops to paint Renly as the bad guy in the Parley between the two of them.

[frenin]

39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Until a son was born to him

Strike your banners and come to me before dawn, and I will grant you Storm's End and your old seat on the council and even name you my heir until a son is born to me. Otherwise, I shall destroy you."

He has not offered him anything Renly was not at the start of the day.

Shireen is Stannis's heir until a son of his is born.

 

40 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't think that is true. Why would Renly enter into negotiations if he did not think Stannis would see sense.

5k vs 100k. The only reason Stannis does not accept is because he believes the prophesy of some foreign Sheila he just met. Most sane people would have gladly accepted his offer.

More likely that not because he wants Stannis's fleet and the fleet of the fishlords, especially since Balon is Balon and the Redwyne twins were hostages.

Stannis was useful to him and he was brother, so he tried to reasoning with him, Renly was useful to Stannis and he was his brother, so he tried to reasoning with him, sure Stannis benefits the most but that doesn't mean having Stannis on his side would not be useful.

Now, most sane people would accept?? I don't really see many older brothers bowing and leaving in the shadow of the youngest, regardless of the Sheila's vision, Stannis's answer would've been the same.

 

58 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

A brother who just threatened to destroy him?

Indeed, 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course he had problems, that is why he simply did not attack Stannis when he's attacking Storm's End. That is why he offered Stannis Storm's End for his 5k men.

Quite clearly Renly was not happy about killing Stannis because he had the means to do so.

Davos brings up an important part about Stannis' role in Renly's death

but Melisandre told me that if I went to Storm's End, I would win the best part of my brother's power, and she was right."

"B-but," Davos stammered, "Lord Renly only came here because you had laid siege to the castle. He was marching toward King's Landing before, against the Lannisters, he would have—"

Stannis shifted in his seat, frowning. "Was, would have, what is that? He did what he did. He came here with his banners and his peaches, to his doom . . . and it was well for me he did.

 

Stannis' sole reason for putting Storm's End under siege was because Melisandre told him that Renly would die there. He travelled home to see his brother die.  He does not try to offer Renly anything to get him to join.

And that is why Stannis offers him what he offers, small and simply as we may think it is, it is still big given Stannis thinks his brother is just a traitor. What do you think Stannis can give to Renly to join him, naming him his heir apparent?? Renly wants the crown and Stannis wants the crown, there are little compromise there and the Baratheons aren't particularly known for their non stubborn or yielding nature.

And no, Meli told him that if he went to Storm's End he would win his brother's power, ofc that in hindsight means that Renly was a goner, but as all prophecies, it could be interpreted more than one way, Stannis could perfectly be under the impression that his brother would see reason and back his  claim.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis chose death. What do you think a battle is?

Stannis may have been allowed to live if her surrendered. Did he give any indication that he was going to do that in the last conversation he had with Renly?

You are going through quite a few hoops to paint Renly as the bad guy in the Parley between the two of them.

Nope, Stannis chose batttle, there is a reason for why Balon lived to rebel again and Jaime is still breathing, Stannis could perfectly be defeated and kept alive as Renly's brother as much as he could be KIA, Renly closed one door for him.

 

Not the first hostage or king who is been captured in battle and rots in a cell  or something similar in history, Stannis's  death or survival would meant nothing and less to Renly's overall campaign, Renly took a decision there too.

At all, I don't like Renly's actitude during the parley, i don't think that he's grateful enough to a brother who kept him alive during the siege nor to Davos, but i don't think he's the bad guy there, at any rate.

[Bernie Mac]

 

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Shireen is Stannis's heir until a son of his is born

For the crown? Debatable, given past rulings.

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More likely that not because he wants Stannis's fleet

He'll soon have the Redwyne fleet. His attack on Kings Landing was by land.

Stannis needed Renly more than Renly needed Stannis and yet Renly was the only one offering something in return.

 

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Stannis was useful to him and he was brother, so he tried to reasoning with him,

Sure, Renly tried to reason and to bargain with Stannis

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Renly was useful to Stannis and he was his brother, so he tried to reasoning with him,

No, he did not. He threatened to destroy him. That is not reasoning with someone.

Stannis was the aggressor, he attacked Storm's End to get Renly's attention knowing that Renly would die at Storm's End.

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sure Stannis benefits the most but that doesn't mean having Stannis on his side would not be useful.

No one claimed otherwise. I claimed that Stannis needed Renly far more than Renly needed what Stannis had.

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Now, most sane people would accept??

Yes.

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I don't really see many older brothers bowing and leaving in the shadow of the youngest,

One brother has a 100k army and support of more lords than the other brother with a 5k army.

This is about common sense, not about who is the oldest. Stannis, without magic, can't win. From Renly's perspective Stannis would give in.

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regardless of the Sheila's vision, Stannis's answer would've been the same.

We don't know that.

Robert was not the rightful King, but it benefited Stannis for his brother to usurp his cousins throne.

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Indeed, 

Glade you agree.

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And that is why Stannis offers him what he offers,

He does not offer him anything

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small and simply as we may think it is,

He does not offer him anything. Something that does not exist is not small or simple, it is non-existent.

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it is still big given Stannis thinks his brother is just a traitor.

As is Stannis. Did Stannis ever ask punishment for being a traitor to the Targaryens?

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What do you think Stannis can give to Renly to join him,

Who knows. Like when it came to warning Robert about the danger he was in, Stannis simply never tried.

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naming him his heir apparent??

Which he would have been anyway until Stannis had a son.

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And no, Meli told him that if he went to Storm's End he would win his brother's power,

No, she also told him he would die. It is what horrifies Cressen to act.

 

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ofc that in hindsight means that Renly was a goner, but as all prophecies, it could be interpreted more than one way, Stannis could perfectly be under the impression that his brother would see reason and back his  claim.

You seem to be grasping here.#

• Stannis is told his brother will die and he will claim his army at Storm's End
• Stannis attacks Storm's End to get Renly to come to Storm's End
• Threatens to destroy him at Dawn
• While everyone else is awake, planning for war, Stannis is asleep knowing there will be no battle
• Stannis tells Mel to do the same to Penrose

Stannis knew what he was doing. Renly, like Edric, was collateral damage in his bid to be King.

 

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Nope, Stannis chose batttle,

No, he did not. If he chose battle he'd be awake like his men were, like Renly and his men were.

Stannis is the only person asleep as the battle was supposed to commence. He knew what was going to happen.

"I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day."

Stannis knew there was going to be no battle.

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there is a reason for why Balon lived to rebel again

Yes, he surrendered. Stannis gave no indication that he was about to surrender in his conversation with Renly. Or did I miss that?

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and Jaime is still breathing,

Valuable hostage. Stannis is not.

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Stannis could perfectly be defeated and kept alive as Renly's brother as much as he could be KIA, Renly closed one door for him.

Stannis closed the door on that by asking for battle.

We have no idea what would have happened had Stannis surrendered. But he asked for battle, his 5k against 20k. He's not likely to survive those odds.

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Not the first hostage or king who is been captured in battle and rots in a cell  or something similar in history,

He's be the first pretender who was offered peace and still chose battle despite being outnumbered more than 4:1.

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Stannis's  death or survival would meant nothing and less to Renly's overall campaign, Renly took a decision there too.

He accepted Stannis' threat. Stannis was the aggressor,

• He attacked his brother's lands
• Threatened to destroy him
• Had him assassinated

And yet all I ever hear from some of the Stannis fans is how unfair Renly was being. Mental!