Varysblackfyre321 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 46 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: I’ve no idea what you’re on about here. ETA: and the bold is incorrect. That’s actually what statutory rape is; if a 13yr old wants to/ has sex w an adult, it’s statutory rape because a 13 yr old hasn’t reached age of consent. To the bolded I was trying to point out statutory-rape doesn’t look at desire. It’s purely a matter of consent. Something pointed out by @FictionIsntReal which you objected to. Desire=/consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: To the bolded I was trying to point out statutory-rape doesn’t look at desire. It’s purely a matter of consent. Something pointed out by @FictionIsntReal which you objected to. Desire=/consent. Perhaps you should reread what I wrote, since I said absolutely nothing about desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: He is still a man, even in his current state, he’s much stronger than Cersi. He is indeed much stronger than Cersei but as the guy who lacks a right hand and is extremely uncomfortable with his left, he doesn't have the tools to utilise his superior strength. He simply physically can't have sex with her without her help. He can't pin Cersei down and do the deed. He can hold her hand and that's it, he is useless. The only solution, I guess, is to punch her with his left hand or something and once she is weak rape her. But that's not what happened. Jaime did not hit her in any way, he didn't pin her to anything. He actually lifted her on an altar, then lifted her skirt and undid her underwear, all with his uncomfortable left hand and Cersei wasn't being held by anything at this point. She quite clearly wasn't resisting and her feeble punches indicates not her resistance to Jaime, but resistance to her own desire. She just wants it too much, hence feeble punches is all she manages to do, instead of, you know, simply getting of the altar or preventing Jaime to undress her which would be extremely easy to do. 18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: So no never means no if Cersi is telling it to Jamie in terms of sex? To your stop it quote it had the adage of keeping Jaime firmly locked in place. Here Jaimie neither takes verbal, or physical attempts with the idea of refusing him as good enough. A ‘no’ should not be discarded as not truly meaning ‘no’ before sex initiates at the very least. That's a proper guideline that everyone should follow, I absolutely agree but a pair of lovers can develop their own dynamic where 'no' might not mean purely 'no' and in where the pair has other means of notifying the lack of consent. And it's a fact that Cersei and Jaime is such a dynamic, as established as early as their first sex scene that Bran saw. 18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Cersi says no. He ignores her. She gets physical and tries to gently rebuff him. He ignores that. Cersi doesn’t have to put up a ‘proper’ fight before, her refusals mean something. And all this time she lets him to lift her, put on the altar and undress her, which she easily could have prevented him to do. And then literally took his dick and put it into her and screamed how he is finally home in her vagina, lol. 18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Meh, more narcissist. Only he is good enough for his cock. Cersi is the next best thing. When he is horny with other women, he literally thinks how he won't do it because he isn't single. 18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: It’s’ why I think he gravitates to the disfigured and social outcasts. Brienne, Pan, Illyn Payne, and most notably Tyrion. He could play hero with them. Feed his ego. You mean when he was insulting Brienne every step and once literally tried to kill her? He was playing hero to her? 18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Hell, his grievance with Tyrion killing Joffrey came from the dwarf having the gall to kill the boy knowing he was Jaimie’s son. It was a personal insult to Jaimie. His grievance with Tyrion killing Joffrey? He didn't even believe he did it, he thought it was Sansa. And he didn't care and sent Brienne to look after her anyway. 18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Meh, lots of rapists don’t see themselves as having raped their victim. Men have screamed the women they assaulted were sluts who were begging to be raped. Men have screamed She’s my wife! Therefore, it’s ok for me to ignore her proclamations of wanting sex, or fuck her unconscious form. Well, sure Jaime wouldn't think so after Cersei inserted his dick into her and then screamed 'yes', 'yes', 'you are finally home'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 On 3/1/2020 at 5:37 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: The indication is that's what they were doing. That's what they did. Granted, though, Cersei may have thought they were going to the tower for other reasons but I doubt it. If they only wanted to discuss politics they could have found a place at WF to do so. Ned & Robert & others were hunting so the castle wasn't densely populated. It is irrelevant what they agreed or implied to do when they went. Consent can given and taken at any time. Cersei could have been willing to fuck Jaime when they went up and then she could have changed her mind because she was no longer in the mood. It is quite clear, from what we know, that they didn't just get there to fuck since they also discussed important issues. Also, it is kind of hilarious to suggest that they could have talked privately about treason and schemes elsewhere but only fuck up in the tower. Clearly they felt they had to go there and couldn't talk/fuck in Cersei's chambers in Winterfell, Robert's empty bedchamber, etc. On 3/1/2020 at 5:37 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: No, I don't think it's the only kind of sex they have or that the circumstances are always controlled by Cersei. That exactly does not fit with the quote we discuss. Cersei is a woman and doesn't control anything in her life. Not even what she has to suffer from the Kettleblacks. If Jaime is a man who takes what he wants and if Jaime is that kind of man then Jaime did take Cersei more than once in a manner that didn't leave her choice. This wouldn't have been the cases where Cersei sought out Jaime to convince him to do something for her. After all, they started to fuck at the age of six, meaning Jaime would have taken Cersei many times before they really knew what they were doing and before Cersei could even get pregnant. On 3/1/2020 at 5:37 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I don't think so. Cersei expresses her distaste in having sex with Robert & having his children as well so it was likely a decision they both were in line with. Of course, but it was Jaime who decided to fuck Cersei to father said children. If he had considered that a stupid idea it wouldn't have happened. Cersei is the cautious one, Jaime is the stupid moron. On 3/1/2020 at 5:37 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I don't know. Being coerced by sexual desire would be a hard rape case to prove right? It isn't a man's fault if she can't control her sexual desire enough to say no. It is not about proving anything, it is about what happened. Consent can given and taken any time. I could say I fuck you now, could work you up and then I could stop and go home. Vice versa, you could say a hundred times to me to fuck me hard and then, right before I'm about to come you could stop it all. If I continued then it would be rape. And Jaime did rape Cersei in the sense that he forced himself on her when she had made it very clear that she didn't want to have sex with him now. That she loved him, that she was his sister, that they were family and had children together, that she likes to have sex with him under other circumstances, etc. - all that is meaningless because Cersei made it clear she did not want to have sex now. It is the very same thing with Dany and Drogo - Dany made it clear she didn't want to marry Drogo and she didn't want Drogo to touch her. The consent both she and Cersei gave later, after those men had forced themselves on her, is utterly meaningless. On 3/1/2020 at 5:37 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: They are problematic scenes but I don't think the message is that it's ok to over power or sexually assault someone if they become aroused. This isn't a matter of only being visibly aroused; an erection, it's a matter of her behaving aroused as well. She is behaving as if she wants it & likes it, albeit after saying she didn't want to do it there. Which is also irrelevant. Cersei, like many a woman in abusive sexual relationship, knows how to act in a way that indicates consent when her true feelings are disgust and loathing (we see that with Osney Kettleblack). With Jaime we know she didn't want to have sex in the sept and that's why he should have stopped then and there. Neither he nor we can know whether Cersei went through with it because she changed her mind or because she played a role because he intimidated her and she thought she should go through the motions rather than risk that Jaime make a fuzz to risk that Tywin or somebody else caught them in the act. The message such scenes sent is that it is okay when you kindly overpower a woman and convince her with your hands or your sexuality that she really, really wants to have sex with you. It means when you think somebody loves you or belongs to you or is in a sexual relationship with you can do everything. On 3/1/2020 at 5:37 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: A rape victim, by definition, doesn't want to have sex with this person & while they cannot always control the physical manifestations of arousal they would be able to control the actions used to express that manifestation. A rape victim does not express orally how much they want it or use their hands & mouth to reciprocate unless forced to do so, & Cersei was not forced to act like she liked it, whether or not she felt forced into doing it. That, too, depends on the circumstances. Just switch Robert and Jaime in that scene - Cersei seems to have had sex with Robert when she pretended to like it and pleasured him in other ways without showing her true feelings. In his case this is clearly rape. Jaime has no proof that Cersei loves him and wants to have him sex. How can he know that he isn't just another Robert to her? He can't, because unlike Qarl and Asha Cersei and Jaime never established clear boundaries and rules for their relationship. Or rather, I think, they never established such rules after Cersei married Robert. Back when they were both single it may have been much different and less fucked-up. But it is quite clear that with Jaime no one could ever have any kind of adult sexual or romantic relationship because Jaime is completely incapable and unwilling to follow any rules but his own. On 3/1/2020 at 5:37 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: She does have reason to not want to do it there. Very real reason; they are next to her sons corpse & they could be found. I think that fear is genuine but gives way to her desire soon enough. Her desire is irrelevant. The important thing is what she says she wants. And that's very clear, too. This is simply sexual assault, there is no way around that - it is not the same clear rape it is in the show, but it is still not consensual sex, either. 18 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: The relevance is that if Cersei isn't doing the same things with Jaime, it's an indication that she doesn't regard it as being unwanted in the same way she does with Robert. Jaime has no way of knowing what Cersei actually feels. And that's actual a huge part of his problem. Jaime is so self-involved, so sure of himself, that he thinks his opinion about other people (especially his siblings) are as solid and true as his oversized opinion of himself. 18 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I'm going to be pedantic and point out that unmarried maidens and even Septas can be raped. Sure, should have included especially septas. How far things are with maidens is difficult to say - women having a proper owner (like a lord father, say) might be victims if they had consensual sex. Others might not be seen as victims of rape because nobody cares what happens to them or because their fathers and brothers abuse them or make them into whores (I doubt that anybody in Westeros would view young Shae as a victim of rape, just as nobody seems to think Gilly or her sisters were raped by Craster) 18 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Long ago the term "rape" meant "abduction", hence Alexander Pope's "The Rape of the Lock" poem. In the myth of the "the rape of the Sabine women", the women were willing to go with the Roman men, it was their own fathers who objected, somewhat akin to Lyanna going off with Rhaegar. Sure, but to what degree this kind of historical baggage is part of the cultural concept of rape in Westeros we don't know. We can, however, make a pretty strong case that 'dishonorable women' (like whores) cannot really be raped. Robert's interpretation of Lyanna being rape indicates to me that he already saw her as his wife and property - which seems to be not that far-fetched a claim in light what a betrothal means (even Joff had to go through serious motions to dissolve his betrothal with Sansa Stark). 18 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Since they've been living together for years and have multiple children, I think in the absence of a marriage ceremony that might be thought of as something like a common-law marriage. Since Cersei and Robert are married that makes no sense whatsoever. Not to mention that they are brother and sister and thus cannot legally marry unless they are Targaryens. 18 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, we have Cersei's thoughts on this. She's quite proud of herself for preventing Robert from having any legitimate children. Tyrion also thinks "Cersei would not be Cersei" if she'd had any kids that didn't look like Lannisters. Jaime arranging for an abortion is evidence that he wouldn't kill Robert for knocking up Cersei, because he didn't when that happened. Cersei certainly also liked the idea of carrying Jaime's children, but we don't know the details there. We don't know whether Cersei wanted three children, don't know when and how they children were conceived, etc. Cersei definitely didn't want to have Robert's children but that's not the same as carrying Jaime's children to term - or three of them. And Tyrion's take on Cersei's character is not exactly accurate or unbiased. It is a recurring theme that all three Lannister siblings are very wrong about many aspects of their siblings characters - which is, I think, supposed to reflect the dysfunctional state of the entire family (also things like them being all massively wrong about Tywin never smiling, laughing, etc.). We don't know how much pressure Jaime put on Cersei to abort the child, nor do we know how Jaime could have coped with it if Cersei and Robert had had a bunch of children and had turned out to become sort of a functional family - or at least functional parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: It is irrelevant what they agreed or implied to do when they went. Consent can given and taken at any time. Cersei could have been willing to fuck Jaime when they went up and then she could have changed her mind because she was no longer in the mood. Sure, consent can be given or taken at any time but that doesn't make it irrelevant if they went there to have sex. She went along willingly so was consenting at that point at least. 37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: It is quite clear, from what we know, that they didn't just get there to fuck since they also discussed important issues. Also, it is kind of hilarious to suggest that they could have talked privately about treason and schemes elsewhere but only fuck up in the tower. Clearly they felt they had to go there and couldn't talk/fuck in Cersei's chambers in Winterfell, Robert's empty bedchamber, etc. It is not quite clear they didn't go there to have sex. They could have went there to have sex & also ended up talking about other things. It's much easier to close your mouth when you hear someone coming or when they come into a room you are talking treason in than it is to jump up & put your clothes back on or straighten them out & make it appear as if you weren't just having sex. 40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: exactly does not fit with the quote we discuss. Cersei is a woman and doesn't control anything in her life. Not even what she has to suffer from the Kettleblacks. If Jaime is a man who takes what he wants and if Jaime is that kind of man then Jaime did take Cersei more than once in a manner that didn't leave her choice I call BS. She suffers what she does from the Kettleblacks precisely because she wants to. She leads them to believe she desires them, she seeks them out, and she doesn't say no or indicate in any manner that she doesn't want to do exactly what they are doing. She is their Queen. They would never have sought her out & pushed themselves on her - it would mean death. She sets the boundaries of that relationship. Not because she desires them sexually but because she wants them to do something for her & is willing to use her body to get it. Jaime being the type of man who takes what he wants, firstly was said in a context that indicated this is a desirable thing in a man. Secondly, Jaime 'taking' Cersei does not mean Cersei did not consent to be taken. We don't have every sexual exchange between them so we cannot say for certain she did or didn't consent but this line does nothing to indicate he has taken her against her will. 44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: This wouldn't have been the cases where Cersei sought out Jaime to convince him to do something for her. After all, they started to fuck at the age of six, meaning Jaime would have taken Cersei many times before they really knew what they were doing and before Cersei could even get pregnant Jaime was also 6 so them having sex at that age is irrelevant in terms of it being consensual. Nor does it matter if they knew what they were doing or she could get pregnant. 46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Of course, but it was Jaime who decided to fuck Cersei to father said children. If he had considered that a stupid idea it wouldn't have happened And as far as we know she agreed. She may have been more fearful of the risks or getting caught, but that alone does not mean she wasn't willing. We don't have the details here to say one way or another. 48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Cersei is the cautious one, Jaime is the stupid moron Certainly. Again, though, says nothing to whether or not she consents. 49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: is not about proving anything, it is about what happened. Consent can given and taken any time. I could say I fuck you now, could work you up and then I could stop and go home. Vice versa, you could say a hundred times to me to fuck me hard and then, right before I'm about to come you could stop it all. If I continued then it would be rape Absolutely & the reverse is also true. Cersei can say no, not here & then change her mind & agree to have sex. 50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: And Jaime did rape Cersei in the sense that he forced himself on her when she had made it very clear that she didn't want to have sex with him now. That she loved him, that she was his sister, that they were family and had children together, that she likes to have sex with him under other circumstances, etc. - all that is meaningless because Cersei made it clear she did not want to have sex now But see she didn't make it very clear. She says no & then appears to change her mind. Convincing her to agree is not taking her against her will. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: It is the very same thing with Dany and Drogo - Dany made it clear she didn't want to marry Drogo and she didn't want Drogo to touch her. The consent both she and Cersei gave later, after those men had forced themselves on her, is utterly meaningless It isn't really the same thing because Cersei has not been forced into any sort of relationship with Jaime. She has had a mutual relationship with Jaime from a very young age, as far as we know. 53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Which is also irrelevant. Cersei, like many a woman in abusive sexual relationship, knows how to act in a way that indicates consent when her true feelings are disgust and loathing (we see that with Osney Kettleblack It is absolutely not irrelevant. You have to give something other than outward assent to a person to be able to claim rape. Her true feelings are of disgust but she gave consent anyway. You cannot tell someone yes, I want to have sex with you, yes I want you to touch me & then say that person did so against your will, even if you are doing it for reasons other than desiring them sexually. 55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: With Jaime we know she didn't want to have sex in the sept and that's why he should have stopped then and there. Neither he nor we can know whether Cersei went through with it because she changed her mind or because she played a role because he intimidated her and she thought she should go through the motions rather than risk that Jaime make a fuzz to risk that Tywin or somebody else caught them in the act. Well, he would have a better idea than we would seeing as how they have grown up together & had sex umpteen million times, but yes, this is what it all boils down to. If Cersei behaved the way she did because she felt she had no other choice (which I will agree is possible, but not how I read the situation) then Jaime raped her. If she behaved the way she did because she wanted to, then he did not rape her. Because George said this isn't rape, I'm inclined to believe Cersei behaved the way she did because she wanted to. As you said before, consent can be given or taken at any time. She says no initially & then she consents. 58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The message such scenes sent is that it is okay when you kindly overpower a woman and convince her with your hands or your sexuality that she really, really wants to have sex with you. It means when you think somebody loves you or belongs to you or is in a sexual relationship with you can do everything Not at all. Have you never been in a relationship & had a situation where you originally were not in the mood or whatever & gave some feeble protest but then changed your mind? Became aroused & decided you did want to have sex after all? 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: That, too, depends on the circumstances. Just switch Robert and Jaime in that scene - Cersei seems to have had sex with Robert when she pretended to like it and pleasured him in other ways without showing her true feelings. In his case this is clearly rape. Jaime has no proof that Cersei loves him and wants to have him sex. How can he know that he isn't just another Robert to her We have no indication that Cersei pretended to like it when she 'pleasured' Robert in other ways. We don't have the details of those encounters. What we do know is Cersei didn't want to, evidenced by her own words & that Cersei is the Queen to a King in a feudal society & very much expected to have sex with & bear children for the King. Knowing that, we can safely call it rape. Given more details it could potentially change the judgement. Jaime is a different circumstances first & foremost because she is not expected to have sex with or bear children for him - quite the opposite. Jaime's proof that she loves him is her telling him repeatedly that she does & behaving in manner that her & Jaime view as how you behave with someone you love. He has proof she wants to have sex with him because she has sex with him, presumably often, without protest. Or maybe every single time is set up in this manner where she initially protests but then concedes. Either way they have an established sex life & presumably know each other plenty well enough to know when the other person is consenting or refusing. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: He can't, because unlike Qarl and Asha Cersei and Jaime never established clear boundaries and rules for their relationship. Or rather, I think, they never established such rules after Cersei married Robert. Back when they were both single it may have been much different and less fucked-up. But it is quite clear that with Jaime no one could ever have any kind of adult sexual or romantic relationship because Jaime is completely incapable and unwilling to follow any rules but his own That is all assumption. We have no idea what boundaries they have set up. It is the opposite of quite clear. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Her desire is irrelevant. The important thing is what she says she wants. And that's very clear, too. This is simply sexual assault, there is no way around that - it is not the same clear rape it is in the show, but it is still not consensual sex, either Her desire is relevant if thats why she agrees to have sex. That is equivalent to saying she had sex because she wanted to. Having sex for the sole reason that you love & desire the person you are having sex with is consenting. You cannot say, no I didn't have sex because I felt I had no other choice, no I didn't have sex because her forced me. I had sex because I desired him but it's rape. That's the very opposite of rape. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Cersei certainly also liked the idea of carrying Jaime's children, but we don't know the details there. We don't know whether Cersei wanted three children, don't know when and how they children were conceived, etc. Cersei definitely didn't want to have Robert's children but that's not the same as carrying Jaime's children to term - or three of them 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: We don't know how much pressure Jaime put on Cersei to abort the child, nor do we know how Jaime could have coped with it if Cersei and Robert had had a bunch of children and had turned out to become sort of a functional family - or at least functional parents Exactly, we don't know so there is no reason to assume Jaime forced her or pressured her to have his children. This isn't indicated anywhere in the text nor is there any indication as to what Jaime may or may not have done had the children been Robert's. Her actions count here. Words are not the only thing that matter, especially in an established relationship. If she says no the entire time but is guiding him into her, moaning, & showing every sign that she does indeed want to have sex - as long as she is not being forced to make those actions, they count. It would be sending very mixed signals to say the least but her words do not automatically override her actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Sure, consent can be given or taken at any time but that doesn't make it irrelevant if they went there to have sex. She went along willingly so was consenting at that point at least. Well, Cersei made it clear she did not want to have sex at the tower. Jaime ignored that, commanded her to come here, etc. He didn't care whether she was giving him consent there or not. If we go for a walk to eventually have sex you still have the right to change your mind when we get down to business. It is irrelevant that Cersei may have given some sort of consent before, just as it is meaningless how often they had sex before. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: It is not quite clear they didn't go there to have sex. They could have went there to have sex & also ended up talking about other things. But they only started to have sex after they had talked about crucial issues Bran overheard. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: It's much easier to close your mouth when you hear someone coming or when they come into a room you are talking treason in than it is to jump up & put your clothes back on or straighten them out & make it appear as if you weren't just having sex. That is all irrelevant since the queen of the fucking Seven Kingdoms could have commanded the servants to leave not only her chambers but the entire floor of the castle, and make it clear that if she were to be disturbed for any reason it would have the direst of consequences. Even Princess Saera figured out how to free herself of servants and companions when she wanted to be alone with her lovers. And she wasn't the queen nor particularly bright. But this is irrelevant since there is no indication that the twins went where they went to have sex nor that they went exactly there to have sex. Perhaps they just went for a walk and Jaime, being horny, decided to push Cersei to go up there to have sex, etc. Cersei makes it clear later that they didn't have any sex throughout the entire Winterfell journey and Jaime was hectoring her about that. She blames him and his lust for the fact that Bran oversaw them ... and rightfully so. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I call BS. She suffers what she does from the Kettleblacks precisely because she wants to. She leads them to believe she desires them, she seeks them out, and she doesn't say no or indicate in any manner that she doesn't want to do exactly what they are doing. She is their Queen. They would never have sought her out & pushed themselves on her - it would mean death. She sets the boundaries of that relationship. Not because she desires them sexually but because she wants them to do something for her & is willing to use her body to get it. That is victim-blaming. I can flirt with you all day long, but that doesn't give you the right to kiss me, touch me, grope, etc. Women behaving in a certain manner doesn't mean have a right to touch them. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Jaime being the type of man who takes what he wants, firstly was said in a context that indicated this is a desirable thing in a man. Secondly, Jaime 'taking' Cersei does not mean Cersei did not consent to be taken. We don't have every sexual exchange between them so we cannot say for certain she did or didn't consent but this line does nothing to indicate he has taken her against her will. That makes no internal sense because a man who takes somebody who wants to be taken doesn't really take anyone. He is just playing a game. Taena and Cersei are talking dangerous men who do not take 'no' for an answer. And those men do not just take women who may secretly fantasize about 'being taken' by a strong and dangerous man but also such who don't have such dreams. The fact that Cersei sees Jaime as such a man means she must have been taken by Jaime against her will or must believe Jaime would, in the end, take her whether she wanted him to take her or not. That's what makes him dangerous in this sense. If Jaime were respecting her boundaries and were doing whatever she wanted he would just be her pet and that's not what he is. Jaime is much less attractive to Cersei after he loses his swordhand because that emasculates him. Jaime's manliness is embodied by his swordhand, his ability to fight to beat any other man, not his abilities in bed, his mind, etc. He just as that talent. And it is gone after he loses the hand, he is just a clumsy cripple afterwards. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Jaime was also 6 so them having sex at that age is irrelevant in terms of it being consensual. Nor does it matter if they knew what they were doing or she could get pregnant. That would count back then, too, but they were 6-15 while they had their secret affair. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Absolutely & the reverse is also true. Cersei can say no, not here & then change her mind & agree to have sex. Sure, but if Jaime forces himself on her in the meantime he is still committing sexual assault. And if she only starts to like it when he outright fucks her then he is a rapist. Period. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: But see she didn't make it very clear. She says no & then appears to change her mind. Convincing her to agree is not taking her against her will. If he were using arguments he would convince her ... if he touches her and forces her to reconsiders it is not convincing at all. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: It isn't really the same thing because Cersei has not been forced into any sort of relationship with Jaime. She has had a mutual relationship with Jaime from a very young age, as far as we know. That doesn't really matter - sure Dany, is much worse because of her youth, but it would still be rape if Dany had been a forty-year-old woman being sold to Drogo by her brother. And Cersei is at a massive disadvantage in her relationship with Jaime because he doesn't give a damn about being found out because he doesn't care about their children while Cersei does. She is not just afraid for herself and Jaime but also for the children. Jaime isn't afraid at all. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: It is absolutely not irrelevant. You have to give something other than outward assent to a person to be able to claim rape. Her true feelings are of disgust but she gave consent anyway. You cannot tell someone yes, I want to have sex with you, yes I want you to touch me & then say that person did so against your will, even if you are doing it for reasons other than desiring them sexually. It would depend on the power dynamic. If I said 'yes' with my mouth, and my eyes, facial expression, body language cried 'no' it is still rape. But the point here is that Jaime has no way of knowing - truly knowing - that Cersei actually changed her mind. She said 'no' at first and he didn't respect that. Instead he forced himself on her. What would you say if I told you convincingly I had sex with a number of woman who at first told me rather clear that I should not touch them, should not have sex with them, only for all of them 'consenting' after things got a little rough? I'd say any sane woman would not want to be alone with me in a room because I'd clearly be a man who doesn't respect boundaries or cares about consent. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: As you said before, consent can be given or taken at any time. She says no initially & then she consents. See above, it is not consent when you are already treated as if it doesn't matter whether you consent or not. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Not at all. Have you never been in a relationship & had a situation where you originally were not in the mood or whatever & gave some feeble protest but then changed your mind? Became aroused & decided you did want to have sex after all? No. I make it obvious that I want to initiate sex by using words, and I expect my girlfriend to do the same. And this is especially necessary when you want to play games or enact sexual fantasies - which Qarl and Asha do, but Cersei and Jaime do not. They have a very immature sexuality, possibly going back to the fact that had this preteen twin incest thing going. They seem to have never established proper boundaries in their relationship - something they may have done if they had had other relationships with people they did not know as closely as they know each other. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: We have no indication that Cersei pretended to like it when she 'pleasured' Robert in other ways. We don't have the details of those encounters. What we do know is Cersei didn't want to, evidenced by her own words & that Cersei is the Queen to a King in a feudal society & very much expected to have sex with & bear children for the King. Knowing that, we can safely call it rape. Given more details it could potentially change the judgement. We have no reason to believe Robert got the impression Cersei thought he was mistreating or hurting her when they had sex. I'd expect that Cersei had to play the sweet little kitten pretty convincingly to convince a drunken Robert that it would be better if she give a blowjob or they have anal sex or whatever they did instead of having vaginal intercourse (it is never specified). Chances that Cersei got Robert to ejaculate on her belly, like she did with Lancel, are not that high in my opinion... 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Jaime is a different circumstances first & foremost because she is not expected to have sex with or bear children for him - quite the opposite. Jaime's proof that she loves him is her telling him repeatedly that she does & behaving in manner that her & Jaime view as how you behave with someone you love. He has proof she wants to have sex with him because she has sex with him, presumably often, without protest. Or maybe every single time is set up in this manner where she initially protests but then concedes. Either way they have an established sex life & presumably know each other plenty well enough to know when the other person is consenting or refusing. That is not in the text. Jaime never tells us why he thinks Cersei loves him. He just thinks that's the case. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: That is all assumption. We have no idea what boundaries they have set up. It is the opposite of quite clear. We have tons of evidence that Jaime doesn't give a damn what Cersei thinks about. He comes back to KL with the delusion that he and Cersei could marry, showing his only priority is his desire - his desire - to be with Cersei as her husband, not matter what this is going to cost their children and House Lannister. 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Her desire is relevant if thats why she agrees to have sex. That is equivalent to saying she had sex because she wanted to. Having sex for the sole reason that you love & desire the person you are having sex with is consenting. If that desire is caused by a man forcing himself on her against her will then she isn't capable of properly giving consent. This is what I meant with the Bond movie analogy. If women can be overpower by strong men to 'like sex' with them and 'consent to what's done to them' then women aren't really individuals capable of giving consent or making informed choices. Instead they are ruled by emotions strong men generate in them who make them like something against their will. And that is, unfortunately, the message George sends both with Dany-Drogo in AGoT and also, to a lesser degree, with the sept scene of Jaime and Cersei. 'Seduction' is the nonsensical thing on the other side. Nobody is ever 'seduced' in the sense that he or she does something against her or his will. You just see and feel what you resonates with you and that causes you to want to have sex. But nobody ever is doing something against his or her will in such a setting (it might be that to pretend this is the case turns you on even more, but that's then part of the game, not what's actually happening). 36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: You cannot say, no I didn't have sex because I felt I had no other choice, no I didn't have sex because her forced me. I had sex because I desired him but it's rape. That's the very opposite of rape. Why not? You can be very aroused and want to have sex but still decide you don't want it right now for some reason. 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kissdbyfire Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 I so love it when men say stuff that makes it clear they hate Jaime, just b/c he is Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 The OP's text implies Jaime was persistant. It's not the same as molesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Well, Cersei made it clear she did not want to have sex at the tower. Jaime ignored that, commanded her to come here, etc. He didn't care whether she was giving him consent there or not. If we go for a walk to eventually have sex you still have the right to change your mind when we get down to business. Did she? Quote "I would sooner watch you," the man said. He sounded bored. "Come back here." "Lord Eddard has never taken any interest in anything that happened south of the neck," the woman said. "Never. I tell you, he means to move against us. Why else would he leave the seat of power?" There is no talk of sex prior to Jaime saying "Come back here" so that was hardly him ignoring her wishes & commanding her to do otherwise. She doesn't protest when he says come back here & we haven't the slightest idea what exactly she was doing when he said it. As to your earlier claims irt Jaime & how he felt about Cersei & Robert, it seems we do have a hint as to how he thought Cersei should behave with Robert: Quote "Let Lady Arryn grow as bold as she likes. Whatever she knows, whatever she thinks she knows, she has no proof." He paused a moment. "Or does she?" "Do you think the King will require proof?" the woman said. "I tell you, he loves me not." "And whose fault is that, sweet sister?" On to Cersei "making it clear" she didn't want to have sex: Quote The man sighed. "You should think less about the future and more about the pleasures at hand." "Stop that!" the woman said. Bran heard the sudden slap of flesh on flesh, then the man's laughter. Clear enough so far, although Jaime seems to think this is a game or that is is funny - and maybe it is a game. Quote "All this talk is getting very tiresome, sister," the man said. "Come here and be quiet." Annddd suddenly it's not so clear. Bran looks into the window & sees a man & woman "wrestling" so Cersei must've "come there". He hears soft, wet sounds & Bran realizes they are kissing. No mention of force or protest there. The man had his hand between the womans legs & the woman was moaning low in her throat - not pushing him away. To be fair she is saying: Quote "Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it. Oh, please..." BUT Quote But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away. Her hands buried themselves in his hair, his tangled golden hair, and pulled his face down to her breast. I don't know how much clearer George could make it that Cersei is not truly protesting. He has, even little Bran, notice the contradiction in her words vs her actions. If Bran can recognize this then surely Jaime & us readers can? 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: It is irrelevant that Cersei may have given some sort of consent before, just as it is meaningless how often they had sex before. The relevancy of how often they had sex before is that they are familiar with each other, familiar with each others ways, familiar with how the other consents & more importantly does not consent. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: But they only started to have sex after they had talked about crucial issues Bran overheard. Yep, but that doesn't mean that's why they went there. They may have. Or they may have went there to have sex. I'm inclined to believe they went there to have sex, because as I noted, they could have spoke at WF. It is possible they didn't feel safe speaking at WF but I find that unlikely. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: That is all irrelevant since the queen of the fucking Seven Kingdoms could have commanded the servants to leave not only her chambers but the entire floor of the castle, and make it clear that if she were to be disturbed for any reason it would have the direst of consequences. If this is the case then why go to the tower to talk either? Why go to the tower at all? It would seem silly to go to the tower merely to talk when she could just simply command the servants to leave her alone in her chambers & not to disturb her. Unless she is overly concerned about being seen or heard doing something. It would make more sense that she is overly concerned about being seen or heard sleeping with her brother rather than a piece of a conversation being overheard. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: But this is irrelevant since there is no indication that the twins went where they went to have sex nor that they went exactly there to have sex. Perhaps they just went for a walk and Jaime, being horny, decided to push Cersei to go up there to have sex, etc. Cersei makes it clear later that they didn't have any sex throughout the entire Winterfell journey and Jaime was hectoring her about that. She blames him and his lust for the fact that Bran oversaw them ... and rightfully so. Sure, just as there is no indication that they went there to talk. But they must've went there to do something no? Cersei blaming the whole thing on Jaime is just her way of not taking any blame. She was the second half of that interaction & if there is blame to be found for them being seen, she shares it. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: That is victim-blaming. I can flirt with you all day long, but that doesn't give you the right to kiss me, touch me, grope, etc. Women behaving in a certain manner doesn't mean have a right to touch them. It isn't victim-blaming & that term is thrown around entirely too much & used out of context. Yes, you can flirt with me all day long & that does not give me the right to touch you, kiss you, grope you etc BUT in real life we don't stop & explicitly ask before we hold someones hand or touch their hair or kiss them. The signs are usually pretty obvious & if they are not, when I attempt to hold your hand, or touch your hair, or kiss you, & you pull away or flinch or tell me no then I would know that even though you were giving indications that you were ok with me doing these things you don't want me to. Cersei is offering sex in return for a favor. Why would this man not think that it is ok to touch her when she is telling him she wants to have sex with him? If she does not want him to touch her, why in the world would she offer her body to him? I'm not suggesting that flirting gives anyone the right to touch someone else or that if they do get touched against their will it is their fault or what they had coming. I'm saying that both parties have a responsibility to make their intentions clear & if you are flirting with me so I try to hold your hand or kiss you, and you don't want me to, that does not make me some bully or molester. It means I interpreted your actions to mean something they did not. In Cersei's case she told this man she would have sex with him in return for doing her bidding. That isn't simple flirting. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: That makes no internal sense because a man who takes somebody who wants to be taken doesn't really take anyone. He is just playing a game. Taena and Cersei are talking dangerous men who do not take 'no' for an answer. And those men do not just take women who may secretly fantasize about 'being taken' by a strong and dangerous man but also such who don't have such dreams. We have no evidence that Jaime is such a man, as he does only 'take' a woman who, not so secretly, fanatisizes about being taken. Both women are speaking fondly of these men who "take" them. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The fact that Cersei sees Jaime as such a man means she must have been taken by Jaime against her will or must believe Jaime would, in the end, take her whether she wanted him to take her or not. That's what makes him dangerous in this sense. If Jaime were respecting her boundaries and were doing whatever she wanted he would just be her pet and that's not what he is. No, it does not mean Jaime has taken her against her will. He may have as we don't have details of every instance of their coupling but this alone is no proof to that. Respecting her boundaries does not = being her pet. So if he 'takes' her, even though she seemingly wants to be taken, he is a dangerous man that rapes. If he respects her boundaries & only does what she wants, he is her pet? Sounds to me like he is damned in your eyes either way. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Jaime is much less attractive to Cersei after he loses his swordhand because that emasculates him. Jaime's manliness is embodied by his swordhand, his ability to fight to beat any other man, not his abilities in bed, his mind, etc. He just as that talent. And it is gone after he loses the hand, he is just a clumsy cripple afterwards. So? What relevance does that have to the issue at hand? Clearly she wasn't 'turned off' by him losing his sword hand immediately. After a while, sure. But that likely had more to do with his change of character than the actual loss of his sword hand. Is this not further evidence that Cersei enjoys & expects Jaime to "not take no" for an answer? This is how they play, this is how they interact, it's what they do. We have two instances in which Cersei offers feeble protest & seems to be overcome with her desire for him & reciprocates. Is this not indicative that, at least some of the time, this is how they turn each other on? 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: That would count back then, too, but they were 6-15 while they had their secret affair. I don't understand what the point is in this line of discussion. There is absolutely no clear cut evidence that says Jaime was the aggressor in their initial sexual interactions or that they were against Cersei's will. If he were much older & Cersei young I would say she is too young to consent to anything but since they are both the same age the same can be said for both of them. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Sure, but if Jaime forces himself on her in the meantime he is still committing sexual assault. And if she only starts to like it when he outright fucks her then he is a rapist. Period. That isn't what happened. She says no & then says yes with her actions. Much louder than she said no I might add. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: If he were using arguments he would convince her ... if he touches her and forces her to reconsiders it is not convincing at all. Yes it is. He isn't the only one touching in this scene. She is touching him too. This isn't as if he held her down, against her protests, touching her until she finally said ok fine. She is reciprocating his advances every step of the way. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: That doesn't really matter - sure Dany, is much worse because of her youth, but it would still be rape if Dany had been a forty-year-old woman being sold to Drogo by her brother. It absolutely matters. I said nothing of Dany's age vs Cersei's. Dany is forced into a relationship with this man & forced to consummate the marriage. Neither of those things are true for Cersei. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: And Cersei is at a massive disadvantage in her relationship with Jaime because he doesn't give a damn about being found out because he doesn't care about their children while Cersei does. She is not just afraid for herself and Jaime but also for the children. Jaime isn't afraid at all. This doesn't put her at a massive disadvantage. She is fearful of being found out sure, but not enough to not have sex with him. She just tries to be more secretive about it. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: It would depend on the power dynamic. If I said 'yes' with my mouth, and my eyes, facial expression, body language cried 'no' it is still rape. Maybe. I think that would be sending very mixed signals & could potentially lead someone to believe you were consenting when you were not. Depending on how you were saying 'no' with your body language. If you were merely laying still but saying yes with your mouth, eyes, and facial expression this could very well be interpreted as your consent. On the other hand if you are saying yes in all those ways but moving away from the person when they try to touch you, or pushing them away from you - that would make it a little clearer that you were not consenting, but would still be rather confusing for the other person. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: But the point here is that Jaime has no way of knowing - truly knowing - that Cersei actually changed her mind. She said 'no' at first and he didn't respect that. Instead he forced himself on her. No he didn't. She kisses him & welcomes his embrace. Says no, not here, but touches him, doesn't push him away when he touches her, protests 'feebly' but moans in pleasure, helps to 'guide' him & expresses her satisfaction verbally & physically at him penetrating her. By your reasoning he has no way of truly knowing she actually meant 'no' to begin with. How does he not know the 'no' was false but the 'yes' was not? He does have ways of knowing. He is familiar with her both as a person & sexually. If this were their first sexual encounter or even their second, I would agree he doesn't know her well enough to understand what exactly her words & actions are expressing. But that is not the case here. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: What would you say if I told you convincingly I had sex with a number of woman who at first told me rather clear that I should not touch them, should not have sex with them, only for all of them 'consenting' after things got a little rough? I'd say any sane woman would not want to be alone with me in a room because I'd clearly be a man who doesn't respect boundaries or cares about consent. There are too many unknowns here for me to say much of anything but it has naught to do with the situation at hand. Jaime has not had sex with a number of women who first told him no or otherwise. He has had sex with one woman, who he has established a routine & sexual life with. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: See above, it is not consent when you are already treated as if it doesn't matter whether you consent or not. How in the world you can believe that Asha & Qarl's sex scene is so clearly consensual but Jaime & Cersei's is not. The very same things you are saying irt Jaime & Cersei can be applied there plus some. Asha very clearly protested, was treated as if her consent didn't matter, was physically forced, Qarl has no way of truly knowing whether she wants to have sex or not. What makes Qarl & Asha's scene so clearly consensual to you? 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: No. I make it obvious that I want to initiate sex by using words, and I expect my girlfriend to do the same. To each their own but you are aware that people also initiate sex with actions rather than words, no? That doesn't make it any less consensual. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: And this is especially necessary when you want to play games or enact sexual fantasies - which Qarl and Asha do, but Cersei and Jaime do not. They have a very immature sexuality, possibly going back to the fact that had this preteen twin incest thing going. They seem to have never established proper boundaries in their relationship - something they may have done if they had had other relationships with people they did not know as closely as they know each other. This is the exact opposite of what Qarl & Asha do. They do not initiate sex by using words, make it clear that it's consensual using words. You have no idea what boundaries Cersei & Jaime have set & I find it highly unlikely, given the age of their sexual relationship, that no boundaries have ever been set. Boundaries being set do not have to come from having multiple partners. What indication do you have that Asha & Qarl have set boundaries? How do we know she didn't truly mean 'no' when she is protesting Qarl's advances? (rather violently, I might add) 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: That is not in the text. Jaime never tells us why he thinks Cersei loves him. He just thinks that's the case. Cersei herself tells us she loves him. Do you believe he has no reason to think she does? He also believes Tyrion loves him, is he mistaken there also? Quote Cersei wiped her tears away on a ragged brown sleeve. "Very well. If it is battlefields you want, battlefields I shall give you." She jerked her hood up angrily. "I was a fool to come. I was a fool ever to love you." Her footsteps echoed loudly in the quiet, and left damp splotches on the marble floor. Quote How could I ever have loved that wretched creature? she wondered after he had gone. He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: We have tons of evidence that Jaime doesn't give a damn what Cersei thinks about. He comes back to KL with the delusion that he and Cersei could marry, showing his only priority is his desire - his desire - to be with Cersei as her husband, not matter what this is going to cost their children and House Lannister. He wants to be with her because he loves her. Clearly, he does give a damn what Cersei thinks or why does he not go ahead with announcing to the world that they will be married? 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: f that desire is caused by a man forcing himself on her against her will then she isn't capable of properly giving consent. This is what I meant with the Bond movie analogy. If women can be overpower by strong men to 'like sex' with them and 'consent to what's done to them' then women aren't really individuals capable of giving consent or making informed choices. Instead they are ruled by emotions strong men generate in them who make them like something against their will. If it is against her will then she is not merely doing it because she desires him. I'd like to know where all these women are who are being aroused by their perpetrators anyway. You cannot 'make' someone like something. They either do or they don't. Some people are into being 'taken' & dominated, some are not. If someone is into that sort of thing it does not mean they are being forced into 'liking' it because they are being dominated. I agree a woman cannot be overpwered by a strong man to 'like sex' with them, that's precisely what I'm saying. Women are individuals capable of giving consent & making informed choices - it is your assertion that leads to the idea that they cannot. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: And that is, unfortunately, the message George sends both with Dany-Drogo in AGoT and also, to a lesser degree, with the sept scene of Jaime and Cersei. Dany & Drogo are a different situation & there is too much to be discussed there to do it in this thread without derailing it but I disagree 100% that this is the message George is sending us with Jaime & Cersei. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Seduction' is the nonsensical thing on the other side. Nobody is ever 'seduced' in the sense that he or she does something against her or his will. You just see and feel what you resonates with you and that causes you to want to have sex. But nobody ever is doing something against his or her will in such a setting (it might be that to pretend this is the case turns you on even more, but that's then part of the game, not what's actually happening). Yes, exactly. That is exactly my point. Cersei is behaving as if she has been 'seduced' and has no power over her desire but that is not truly the case. She has control over her desire but chooses to succumb to it. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Why not? You can be very aroused and want to have sex but still decide you don't want it right now for some reason. That isn't what I said. If the reason you consent to have sex is because you want to sate your own desire - there is no force involved & therefore is not rape. It's the complete opposite of sex against your will. If you decide you don't want to have sex right now & express that but are forced into it anyway, it is rape. If you decide you don't want to have sex right now but then decide to succumb to your desire then you are having sex because you want to. Not because a man has some capability of planting emotions in you that are against your will. You are in control of your own emotions & you are in control of how you wish to act or react on your emotions. If you choose to sate your desire by having sex with the person you are desiring, that is completely & utterly within your own power & in line with your own will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 14 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Cersei is the cautious one, Jaime is the stupid moron. That's true sometimes, although at other times she seems dumber than Jaime. After Jaime returns to King's Landing, he's dumber than her for wanting to openly marry each other, while she's dumber than him in her choices for Small Council and determination to alienate the Tyrells. Quote That, too, depends on the circumstances. Just switch Robert and Jaime in that scene - Cersei seems to have had sex with Robert when she pretended to like it and pleasured him in other ways without showing her true feelings. In his case this is clearly rape. Jaime has no proof that Cersei loves him and wants to have him sex. How can he know that he isn't just another Robert to her? Cersei does NOT pretend to like it with Robert. He's entirely aware of how little she wants to have sex with him and complains about it to Ned. She acts very differently with Jaime, so he has good reason to think she doesn't view him like Robert. Quote Jaime has no way of knowing what Cersei actually feels. And that's actual a huge part of his problem. Jaime is so self-involved, so sure of himself, that he thinks his opinion about other people (especially his siblings) are as solid and true as his oversized opinion of himself. He does have ways of inferring from how she acts, although in the sept scene he was ignoring any signals she put out. Quote Sure, but to what degree this kind of historical baggage is part of the cultural concept of rape in Westeros we don't know. We can, however, make a pretty strong case that 'dishonorable women' (like whores) cannot really be raped. Since prostitution/brothels are legalized, I expect there is a crime for forcing them to provide a service without paying for it, although it wouldn't be the same as rape. Perhaps it would be more like theft. Quote Robert's interpretation of Lyanna being rape indicates to me that he already saw her as his wife and property - which seems to be not that far-fetched a claim in light what a betrothal means (even Joff had to go through serious motions to dissolve his betrothal with Sansa Stark). Brandon was furious at Harrenahal, and I don't think that was on behalf of Robert. Rather, her own family was disrespected, and they still had authority over her. Quote Since Cersei and Robert are married that makes no sense whatsoever. In a hypothetical where they simply never had a marriage ceremony, Cersei would be the king's long-term mistress, and Tywin would not be able to complain about Robert raping her if she'd been living with him all those years and with three children. Quote And Tyrion's take on Cersei's character is not exactly accurate or unbiased. Tyrion's take is subjective, but when we get Cersei's thoughts they seem consistent with his verdict of her. This is arguably a case where GRRM has failed to make a POV character deeper than they initially appeared. 11 hours ago, Lord Varys said: What would you say if I told you convincingly I had sex with a number of woman who at first told me rather clear that I should not touch them, should not have sex with them, only for all of them 'consenting' after things got a little rough? I'd say any sane woman would not want to be alone with me in a room because I'd clearly be a man who doesn't respect boundaries or cares about consent. Is Cersei insane? Because she's fine with being alone in a room with Jaime. Quote We have no reason to believe Robert got the impression Cersei thought he was mistreating or hurting her when they had sex. I'd expect that Cersei had to play the sweet little kitten pretty convincingly to convince a drunken Robert that it would be better if she give a blowjob or they have anal sex or whatever they did instead of having vaginal intercourse (it is never specified). Chances that Cersei got Robert to ejaculate on her belly, like she did with Lancel, are not that high in my opinion... Actually, we do get Cersei's memories of telling Robert in the morning that he had hurt her, and him replying "It wasn't me, it was the wine". Robert doesn't think of Cersei as a "sweet little kitten", and Cersei thinks of licking his "heirs" of her fingers, so we can guess she jerked him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: That's true sometimes, although at other times she seems dumber than Jaime. After Jaime returns to King's Landing, he's dumber than her for wanting to openly marry each other, while she's dumber than him in her choices for Small Council and determination to alienate the Tyrells. I think Cersei is very right to keep the Tyrells at arm's length. If she handed all of them to Qyburn and made Olenna watch before it was her turn she wouldn't treat them that unjustly after what they pulled off with Joffrey - which clearly is one of the more uglier crimes depicted in the books. Her picks for the Small Council are stupid, but her dear family do share a lot of the blame, especially Jaime but also Kevan. She tried to include them first, wanted to work with them, and only settled on yes-men after she realized that the men she wanted to work with treated her contemptuously. 21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Cersei does NOT pretend to like it with Robert. He's entirely aware of how little she wants to have sex with him and complains about it to Ned. She acts very differently with Jaime, so he has good reason to think she doesn't view him like Robert. Difficult to say how it was throughout their entire marriage. 21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: He does have ways of inferring from how she acts, although in the sept scene he was ignoring any signals she put out. But that is a very dangerous thing to do which I tried to point out repeatedly. If you usually take 'no' for a 'yes', as Jaime does, you eventually get blind to non-verbal subtext. 21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Since prostitution/brothels are legalized, I expect there is a crime for forcing them to provide a service without paying for it, although it wouldn't be the same as rape. Perhaps it would be more like theft. Sure, women owned by a brothel or being handled by a pimp you would have to pay. Independent whores not so much. If Bronn had fucked Shae before handing her to Tyrion without paying her this would be no issue whatsoever. Just as Shae had no way to force Tyrion to pay her for her services, etc. 21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Brandon was furious at Harrenahal, and I don't think that was on behalf of Robert. Rather, her own family was disrespected, and they still had authority over her. Harrenhal was a different issue, but it illustrates that a betrothed woman is owned by both her future husband and her father's family. Although I'm inclined to believe that Brandon may have known more about Rhaegar and Lyanna and why she was crowned than just the coronation thing. That in and of itself had too little meaning for him to have reason to believe he had an affair or wanted to have an affair. I mean, think how various men crowned Alysanne Targaryen queen of love and beauty ... and the king did not accuse them of lusting after his sister-wife. Selmy also didn't seem to be under the impression people would think he was lusting after/having an affair with Ashara Dayne if he had won and crowned her queen of love and beauty. Thus Brandon is either a very possessive and presumptuous older brother or he knew more than we know at this point ... which is entirely likely since he was at Harrenhal and may have known that Lyanna and Rhaegar spend some time together before the coronation. 21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: In a hypothetical where they simply never had a marriage ceremony, Cersei would be the king's long-term mistress, and Tywin would not be able to complain about Robert raping her if she'd been living with him all those years and with three children. I guess you mean Jaime there, but, yeah, that could make sense, although we don't really know of the nature of long-term paramours outside Dorne. 21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Tyrion's take is subjective, but when we get Cersei's thoughts they seem consistent with his verdict of her. This is arguably a case where GRRM has failed to make a POV character deeper than they initially appeared. I don't think it is fair to take Cersei's state of mind in AFfC as representative of the character. She is pretty deranged and vulnerable there, having suffered multiple traumas with Joff's and Tywin's deaths dealing her very severe blows. And I'm expecting her to written considerably different in TWoW since I expect the walk of shame to have the opposite effect - sort of like Cat put herself back together after the attempt on Bran or how the loss of Jacaerys strengthened rather than weakened Rhaenyra's resolve. The Cersei of TWoW could be more like the woman we watched from the outside in AGoT and ACoK. 21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Is Cersei insane? Because she's fine with being alone in a room with Jaime. Well, she is written as a woman who likes her men dangerous and not respecting boundaries. That's what this line of hers about Jaime is all about. And the question is whether she developed this kind of preference or decided to idealize this aspect of Jaime because, due to her longstanding relationship with her twin brother, she didn't have any other choice. 21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Actually, we do get Cersei's memories of telling Robert in the morning that he had hurt her, and him replying "It wasn't me, it was the wine". Robert doesn't think of Cersei as a "sweet little kitten", and Cersei thinks of licking his "heirs" of her fingers, so we can guess she jerked him off. There would be variations, one assumes, but handjobs clearly were part of that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 On 2/25/2020 at 12:36 PM, Peach King said: Since two other ultra sensitive topics are going on, I thought it might be the best time to bring up this passage I noticed on a reread... What do you think, folks? Honestly, I think this is Cersei and Jaime's idea of foreplay. It's part of the messed-up nature of their relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I think Cersei is very right to keep the Tyrells at arm's length. If she handed all of them to Qyburn and made Olenna watch before it was her turn she wouldn't treat them that unjustly after what they pulled off with Joffrey - which clearly is one of the more uglier crimes depicted in the books. The Tyrells, and not Tyrion as Cersei believes, did kill Joffrey. But they are committed to Tommen's regime and Cersei is stupid to alienate them given how much said regime depends on their support. There are a lot of ugly things in the books, I don't think the assassination of Joffrey ranks near the top. Quote Her picks for the Small Council are stupid, but her dear family do share a lot of the blame, especially Jaime but also Kevan. She tried to include them first, wanted to work with them, and only settled on yes-men after she realized that the men she wanted to work with treated her contemptuously. Her own family have contempt for her because she rejects good advice and insists on the most counter-productive actions. Quote Harrenhal was a different issue, but it illustrates that a betrothed woman is owned by both her future husband and her father's family. Although I'm inclined to believe that Brandon may have known more about Rhaegar and Lyanna and why she was crowned than just the coronation thing. That in and of itself had too little meaning for him to have reason to believe he had an affair or wanted to have an affair. I mean, think how various men crowned Alysanne Targaryen queen of love and beauty ... and the king did not accuse them of lusting after his sister-wife. Selmy also didn't seem to be under the impression people would think he was lusting after/having an affair with Ashara Dayne if he had won and crowned her queen of love and beauty. Thus Brandon is either a very possessive and presumptuous older brother or he knew more than we know at this point ... which is entirely likely since he was at Harrenhal and may have known that Lyanna and Rhaegar spend some time together before the coronation. It's acceptable to give the crown to the Queen, because she's the highest ranking woman present. It's also relatively acceptable for Kingsguard to give crowns, because their actions are presumed chaste due to their vows. Robert tries to laugh off Rhaegar's act as only giving Lyanna her due, and this is like saying the dog ate your homework: people only try that excuse because dogs sometimes do eat homework. The reason most people were shocked by Rhaegar's decision is because his own wife was present, as was the queen and the host's daughter who started out with the crown. Lyanna is a far less obvious pick, so he is indicating something by picking her. If he was available for marriage, then some might have expected he was going to ask for her hand, as Jorah did after winning a tourney. I could imagine that in a scenario where Rhaegar had been trying to gain Stark support for something and bring them into his political coalition they might have seen such a move as a gesture of respect, but that doesn't seem to have been the case and instead the "southron ambitions" bloc are entirely separate. Readers can infer that Rhaegar did have a secret prior interaction with Lyanna and it was a gesture of respect resulting from that, but this was not known to everyone else. Quote I guess you mean Jaime there, but, yeah, that could make sense, although we don't really know of the nature of long-term paramours outside Dorne. No, I've been talking about Robert and the extent to which westerosi consider something to be rape conditional on marriage. I think that to initially seize a woman would be considered rape in the classic sense, but if the two of them settle down into a household and raise children together it would be like possession becoming nine tenths of the law. Any father should have objected earlier, and if he came to accept his daughter living in sin with a man she's not married to, his prior actions likely wouldn't be thought of as rape either. Quote I don't think it is fair to take Cersei's state of mind in AFfC as representative of the character. She is pretty deranged and vulnerable there, having suffered multiple traumas with Joff's and Tywin's deaths dealing her very severe blows. And I'm expecting her to written considerably different in TWoW since I expect the walk of shame to have the opposite effect - sort of like Cat put herself back together after the attempt on Bran or how the loss of Jacaerys strengthened rather than weakened Rhaenyra's resolve. I take her memories of her past to be fairly accurate, and they seem to confirm Tyrion's view of her. I also don't expect her to get less deranged. Varys was successful in getting her to blame the Tyrells for Tywin, I think he'll continue to have success in tricking her into undermining herself. Quote The Cersei of TWoW could be more like the woman we watched from the outside in AGoT and ACoK. The woman we saw confess to Ned Stark and attempt to seduce him, then horribly mishandle the siege of King's Landing hardly seems that much more competent. Quote There would be variations, one assumes, but handjobs clearly were part of that as well. I'm going to guess that anal sex is considered strange enough that Cersei wouldn't try that with Robert. Even the ancient Greeks seem to have favored intercrural sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 On 3/2/2020 at 10:58 AM, Dofs said: He is indeed much stronger than Cersei but as the guy who lacks a right hand and is extremely uncomfortable with his left, he doesn't have the tools to utilise his superior strength. Undoubtedly. On 3/2/2020 at 10:58 AM, Dofs said: He simply physically can't have sex with her without her help. He can't pin Cersei down and do the deed. He can hold her hand and that's it, he is useless. The only solution, I guess, is to punch her with his left hand or something and once she is weak rape her. The bolded seems a contradiction to your stance. You acknowledge he could physically rape her-but only if he had literally beaten her so bad that she could not put up a resistance. I On 3/2/2020 at 10:58 AM, Dofs said: He actually lifted her on an altar, then lifted her skirt and undid her underwear, all with his uncomfortable left hand and Cersei wasn't being held by anything at this point. She quite clearly wasn't resisting and her feeble punches indicates not her resistance to Jaime, but resistance to her own desire. She could horny for Jamie’s golden D, but interest doesn’t equal consent. It doesn’t matter why she’s saying she doesn’t consent or why she is physically resisting(even if it’s not ferocious). Her punches indicate her resistance to sex at that particular time and place. On 3/2/2020 at 10:58 AM, Dofs said: That's a proper guideline that everyone should follow, I absolutely agree but a pair of lovers can develop their own dynamic where 'no' might not mean purely 'no' and in where the pair has other means of notifying the lack of consent. And it's a fact that Cersei and Jaime is such a dynamic, as established as early as their first sex scene that Bran saw. Again her moans of Stop precipitated by keeping Jamie in place. Diffrent from here where physically and verbal attempts to assuage Jamie are ignored. On 3/2/2020 at 10:58 AM, Dofs said: And all this time she lets him to lift her, put on the altar and undress her, which she easily could have prevented him to do. And then literally took his dick and put it into her and screamed how he is finally home in her vagina, lol. On 3/1/2020 at 8:56 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said: Yes, she capitulated after Jamie showed he would not take no for answer. On 3/2/2020 at 10:58 AM, Dofs said: You mean when he was insulting Brienne every step and once literally tried to kill her? He was playing hero to her? Oh no. When he saved her from being raped, from being eaten, and gave her the necessary funds and equipment to fulfill her duties he was acting like a hero. When he’s killing a man who raped Pan he’s acting heroic imo. I did not mean to imply, he was saint towards her from the beginning-far from it. But I don’t he feel developed a soft-spot for her in part because she reminded him of Tyrion. The two physically and morally couldn’t be more different save for the fact they’re appearances make them outcasts by default. I don’t think he’d raise much issue if his captor was a male about to be assaulted by the Brave companions no matter how morally righteous. On 3/2/2020 at 10:58 AM, Dofs said: His grievance with Tyrion killing Joffrey? He didn't even believe he did it, he thought it was Sansa. And he didn't care and sent Brienne to look after her anyway. Not exactly. He had his doubts on Tyrion’s complicity in the boy’s murder. “Good. Then we will be well matched if we should ever meet again. The cripple and the dwarf.” Jaime handed him the ring of keys. “I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?” Excerpt From A Storm of Swords This is all after Jamie revealed Tyrion had been made to participate in the gang-rape of his wife. Jamie equates the personal insult of Tyrion killing Joffrey, with what Tyrion went through with Tysha. Jamie further claims the girl had to have been a gold digger(pun intended). Jamie didn’t care about Joffrey. He only asks if Tyrion did it because Joffrey was Jamie’s son-it was disrespectful to Jamie. To be clear it’s not just Joffrey; the man does not care about his children in any real capacity althoghther. Tommen is also hJamie’s son, and also his king. Yet the most pressing thing on Jamie’s mind when Cersi sends him a letter begging for help is how unfairly she’s treated him-not the fact that his son and King May be in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: I so love it when men say stuff that makes it clear they hate Jaime, just b/c he is Jaime. Meh I love Tyrion’s character. Doesn’t mean I can’t acknowledge him to be a selfish, greedy, self-pitiable jackass, whose willing to kill his nephew and niece just get back at his sister. Seeing massive flaws in the character. does not equate to hating the character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Meh I love Tyrion’s character. Doesn’t mean I can’t acknowledge him to be a selfish, greedy, self-pitiable jackass, whose willing to kill his nephew and niece just get back at his sister. Seeing massive flaws in the character. does not equate to hating the character. You're right, seeing flaws does not equate hating the character but stating things that are presumed, outrageous, or outlandish about a character does nothing but prove you (not specifically you, the person saying these things) dislike the character and are not willing to take an objective look at the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: It doesn’t matter why she’s saying she doesn’t consent or why she is physically resisting(even if it’s not ferocious). Her punches indicate her resistance to sex at that particular time and place. Indeed but then don't her other actions (moaning, opening her mouth for his tongue, guiding him etc) indicate she has changed her mind & is willing to have sex at that particular time & place? 10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Again her moans of Stop precipitated by keeping Jamie in place. Diffrent from here where physically and verbal attempts to assuage Jamie are ignored & It's the opinion of some of us that her attempts are ignored because they are in direct opposition with her other actions. That isn't all of it though. We know Jaime & Cersei claim to love each other & have a lengthy sexual history - before anyone gets excited, I'm not saying this means she can't say no or that he can take it now because she has consented before. I'm saying this because this means they are familiar with each other & have established some sort of routine or boundaries in their sexual affairs. If we believe Jaime took Cersei against her will, we have to believe either that he does not care if he is raping this woman he loves, has grown up with, & is his sole sexual partner but does care if someone rapes a woman he does not love &/or barely knows OR that he doesn't know Cersei well enough to correctly interpret her signs & actions. The first option is completely at odds with who Jaime is & the second is highly, highly unlikely. That only leaves me with Jaime is correctly interpreting Cersei & she is indeed consenting. Likewise, if we believe Cersei has been taken against her will we have to believe also that someone forcing themselves on her arouses her (and not in the foreplay way or roleplaying way) but has sex with her when she does not want to have sex AND that she is unaware that she has been taken against her will, because she never reflects on this. Again, I find both options highly unlikely. Which leaves me only that she consented. It is clear to me she is consenting to have sex here. What it boils down to is why she is consenting. If she is consenting because she feels she has no other choice (because he won't stop &/or if she makes too much noise someone will be alerted) then she has been raped. George says she hasn't. She is his creation & if she agrees to have sex because she has no other choice or feels as if she has no other choice that is the epitome of rape & only George would know that's how she felt & would know that means she has been raped. That leaves me with one option: Cersei consented because she wanted to have sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 Whoa this got out of hand! @Lyanna<3Rhaegar Sorry for misrepresenting you earlier. You were not saying that Cersei could not get raped because she's a strong woman, I misread and I apologize. I'll admit I behaved a bit dishonestly here. I don't want Jaime to be a rapist, I kinda mostly wanted others to assuage my fears against him being a rapist....so my arguments were made partly in bad faith. I wanted to make the case extremely strong against Jaime, so I'd get an equally strong defense. But Lyanna, @Dofs and some other posters have come through and convinced me. Let's review: 1. The preferred dynamic of Jaime and Cersei is that she makes him come to her, and initiate whatever sexual encounters they have. So yes, Jaime does enact sex in risky situations, but Cersei wants to do it as well. 2. Cersei saying no, or weakly protesting, is just a part of their foreplay. We can see this in the tower with Bran as well, where Cersei tells Jaime to "stop it" (but her body says otherwise). 3. These protests are not made in seriousness. Cersei murmurs or speaks with a weak voice, which means she does want it to happen, and she is shown to be capable of commanding Jaime to do her bidding or be firm with him in other instances. Jaime knows when no actually means no through Cersei's body language and tone of voice. 4. In the sept scene, Jaime was not capable of overpowering Cersei - he needed her help to even put it inside of her. So yes, Cersei could have pushed him away or walked out, but she didn't want to. She objects, but half-heartedly (as again, Cersei protesting is foreplay for them as a couple) and as GRRM says, "she was as hungry for him as he was for her." Other aspects of their relationship give me pause (such as the "he used to turn her blows into kisses" quote) but without further information, I can't make any judgements. Verdict: NOT RAPE, just another symptom of their fucked up relationship, but it's consensual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 4 minutes ago, Peach King said: Sorry for misrepresenting you earlier. You were not saying that Cersei could not get raped because she's a strong woman, I misread and I apologize. No worries As to the rest of your post, I agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: You're right, seeing flaws does not equate hating the character but stating things that are presumed, outrageous, or outlandish about a character does nothing but prove you (not specifically you, the person saying these things) dislike the character and are not willing to take an objective look at the situation. This proclamation seems a little faulty. For instance here’s an outlandish or outrageous claim: Jon Snow is a werewolf. I don’t think one could definitely say such a statement is proof of dislike towards a character. Though it would be awesome wouldn’t it lol? And, this seems to rely on the presumption that everyone will have the same presumptions in regards to a given a character and that presumptions are reasonable in the first place It doesn’t mean a single person’s interpretation of a given text is less valid by deviating from the norm. 9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Indeed but then don't her other actions (moaning, opening her mouth for his tongue, guiding him etc) indicate she has changed her mind & is willing to have sex at that particular time & place? Yes I’ve freely admitted that she does indeed eventually comply-again she only does so after her refusals were summarily ignored. 9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: & It's the opinion of some of us that her attempts are ignored because they are in direct opposition with her other actions. Her actions being she’s not punching Jaimie hard enough. That simply didn’t put up hard enough of fight or resistance, so her refusals can be ignored. Again I get she complies eventually. But only after physical and verbal refusals were promptly ignored. 9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: That isn't all of it though. We know Jaime & Cersei claim to love each other & have a lengthy sexual history - before anyone gets excited, I'm not saying this means she can't say no or that he can take it now because she has consented before. I'm saying this because this means they are familiar with each other & have established some sort of routine or boundaries in their sexual affairs. And, plenty husbands, boyfriends, do not see themselves as breaking any boundaries when they have sex with their partner going against their expressed refusal, or lack of of ability to expressly consent at a given time. They don’t have to be willfully ignore the boundaries of their relationships-they could legitimately fail to have recognized they were there in the first place. It’s not hard to find stories of women while they were unconscious, being sexually assaulted by someone their long-term partner. They themselves often were uncomfortable on what happened to them. Often they ask if they are just making a big deal out of nothing. Most of the men who assaulted them probably did think they were not going outside their wive’s boundaries. 9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: If we believe Jaime took Cersei against her will, we have to believe either that he does not care if he is raping this woman he loves, has grown up with, & is his sole sexual partner but does care if someone rapes a woman he does not love &/or barely knows OR that he doesn't know Cersei well enough to correctly interpret her signs & actions. The first option is completely at odds with who Jaime is & the second is highly, highly unlikely. That only leaves me with Jaime is correctly interpreting Cersei & she is indeed consenting. Or he simply doesn’t think he is raping Cersi. Plenty men(and women though to a less significant extent), have raped their partner and plenty would honestly say they love their partner after the assault. They(like Jamie), just needed the release, and they(like Jamie), did not want to ‘hurt’ the person they loved much less rape them. They’d most likely freely deride and be all for punishing rapists-they’d just not count themselves among that group. Rapists are ugly, brutal, men, who force themselves onto people they don’t know. Not good guys who’ve had long-standing, loving, relationship with the person they forced themselves onto. I understand you know being a romantic partner with someone doesn’t mean consent for sex is always automatic. Also, Tyrion, has refused to lay with Sansa unless she was completely willingly, and would undoubtedly try to stop Penny(who has literally tried killing him), from being sexually assaulted. But I would still count his sex with a literal slave who can’t tell him no, and has been commanded to obey him in terms of sex, as rape. He can’t even use “a different culture” given he comes from a culture that abhors slavery. And for the second option, meh? Again plenty husband, and boyfriends who’ve been together with their partner for years have failed to recognize sexual boundaries between the two. Jamie could be selfish and apathetic towards his loved ones. He really wants to have sex. If actually thought Tyrion would legitimately show hatred, or tremendous anger towards him over Jamie lying about her, he probably would have let sleeping dogs lie. Even after Tyrion does show anger at the deception-which made participate in the gang-rape of the woman he loved-he still asks Tyrion if the small man killed Joffrey. A person Jamie did not care for in the slightest. Tyrion being made to participate in the gang-rape of his wife, and Joffrey’s murder. As slight wrongs to the other. My point is this; just because Jamie is ignoring Cersei’s refusals could not be mitigated by the fact he loves her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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