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Peach King

Was Jaime molesting Cersei?

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Since two other ultra sensitive topics are going on, I thought it might be the best time to bring up this passage I noticed on a reread...

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Outside a cold wind was rising. They stayed up late into the morning, drinking Arbor gold and telling one another tales. Taena got quite drunk and Cersei pried the name of her secret lover from her. He was a Myrish sea captain, half a pirate, with black hair to the shoulders and a scar that ran across his face from chin to ear. "A hundred times I told him no, and he said yes," the other woman told her, "until finally I was saying yes as well. He was not the sort of man to be denied."

"I know the sort," the queen said with a wry smile.

"Has Your Grace ever known a man like that, I wonder?"

"Robert," she lied, thinking of Jaime.

(A Feast of Crows, Cersei IV)

What do you think, folks?

Edited by Peach King

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1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Since two other ultra sensitive topics are going on, I thought it might be the best time to bring up this passage I noticed on a reread...

What do you think, folks?

hm, that's interesting. 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

"A hundred times I told him no, and he said yes," the other woman told her, "until finally I was saying yes as well. He was not the sort of man to be denied."

That's quite creepy, but since Teana seems to have fond memories of this guy and remembers him as her "lover" ergo being with him seemed to turned out to be ultimately a good experience, I don't think Cersei thinking of Jaime in that moment gives any indication, that Jaime ever molested Cersei. Especially when it says ""Robert," she lied," and we know, that Robert did sexually assaulted her.

I also never got the impression, that Cersei in the end couldn't say no to Jaime. In AFFC, it's pretty apparent, that Jaime wants to sleep with Cersei, but he doesn't even try, because he knows, they are on bad terms. But there were definitely times, when he was very pushy, like the scene in the sept or when they had sex, when Bran saw them. So Cersei might refer to those incidents.

There is definitely often the archetype of the dangerous physically strong man, that can't be denied, but is also somehow portrayed as desirable. It's a theme and it's very weird and uncomfortable.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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47 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

hm, that's interesting. 

That's quite creepy, but since Teana seems to have fond memories of this guy and remembers him as her "lover" ergo being with him seemed to turned out to be ultimately a good experience, I don't think Cersei thinking of Jaime in that moment gives any indignation, that Jaime ever molested Cersei. Especially when it says ""Robert," she lied," and we know, that Robert did sexually assaulted her.

I also never got the impression, that Cersei in the end couldn't say no to Jaime. In AFFC, it's pretty apparent, that Jaime wants to sleep with Cersei, but he doesn't even try, because he knows, they are on bad terms. But there were definitely times, when he was very pushy, like the scene in the sept or when they had sex, when Bran saw them. So Cersei might refer to those incidents.

There is definitely often the archetype of the dangerous physically strong man, that can't be denied, but is also somehow portrayed as desirable. It's a theme and it's very weird and uncomfortable.

I agree! I think this is the trope of "no means yes", where a man forces himself on a woman and it's fine because she actually secretly wants it. Which is uncomfortable as hell, and it's very careless of George to portray this as some sexy thing (ASOIAF IS NOT AN EROTIC NOVEL), but  it's not supposed to be rape/abuse. 

I've read some takes that the sept scene in the books was rape just like in the show so that made me wonder. But yeah - considering how Jaime is shown to be strongly against rape (Rhaella, Pia) I don't think George ever intended him to come across as a rapist. 

Edited by Peach King

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There is nothing in the text that supports this, as far as I recall. Not from Cersei’s memories nor Jaime’s. In fact, she comes across as the more active pursuer, and I think this instance is just a bit of unreliable narration. 

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7 hours ago, Peach King said:

Since two other ultra sensitive topics are going on, I thought it might be the best time to bring up this passage I noticed on a reread...

What do you think, folks?

I'm gonna have to say no. Now, given more details or information I might give a different answer. As it stands though, like the other posters have said Cersei seems capable of refusing Jaime & that passage kind of reads like a no means yes thing. 

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23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

There is nothing in the text that supports this, as far as I recall. Not from Cersei’s memories nor Jaime’s. In fact, she comes across as the more active pursuer, and I think this instance is just a bit of unreliable narration. 

 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm gonna have to say no. Now, given more details or information I might give a different answer. As it stands though, like the other posters have said Cersei seems capable of refusing Jaime & that passage kind of reads like a no means yes thing. 

I actually don't think Cersei is being an unreliable narrator here. Take a look at these two scenes:

Quote

Bran looked in the window.

Inside the room, a man and a woman were wrestling. They were both naked. Bran could not tell who they were. The man's back was to him, and his body screened the woman from view as he pushed her up against a wall.

There were soft, wet sounds. Bran realized they were kissing. He watched, wide-eyed and frightened, his breath tight in his throat. The man had a hand down between her legs, and he must have been hurting her there, because the woman started to moan, low in her throat. "Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it. Oh, please …" But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away. Her hands buried themselves in his hair, his tangled golden hair, and pulled his face down to her breast.

-A Game of Thrones, Bran II.


 

Quote

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here. The septons . . ."

"The Others can take the septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference.

"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." 

-A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII.

 

Edited by Peach King

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23 minutes ago, Peach King said:

I actually don't think Cersei is being an unreliable narrator here. Take a look at these two scenes:

No, I don't think she is being an unreliable narrator either. He is certainly forceful but it doesn't read like she really means no. She says no but then says "Hurry, do it now" etc. 

Doesn't she later refuse him? I'll have to look for it but I thought after he lost his hand she refuses him seriously. I'll see if I can find it & see how it reads. If she is refusing in a similar manner, maybe she really did want to refuse him all along. If not, I would say she is playing a game here & refusing him for real later. 

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3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He is certainly forceful but it doesn't read like she really means no. She says no but then says "Hurry, do it now" etc. 

I get the impression that Cersei really really likes the idea that she is irresistible to Jaime, so irresistible that he "has to have" her even in totally inappropriate situations, like when they are in the North or in the Sept viewing their son's corpse, and I think that colors her refusals. Except when she has something she needs from him, like when she wanted him to join the KG (SoS, Jaime II), and again when she wanted him to kill Tyrion (SoS Jaime IX), she seems to make a practice of making him come to her:

Quote

She has never come to me, he thought. She has always waited, letting me come to her. She gives, but I must ask. SoS Jaime VII

As L<3R is suspecting, I think when no means no, she's not playing, and Jaime doesn't press the issue.

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It's entirely possible to have a relationship like this and it still be entirely consensual. There's an obvious line and when no really means no I'm sure Cersei makes that clear though he'd probably already know that since people communicate a lot through body language and general attitude. 

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It is weird. I read the Cersei and Jaime 'sex' scene as sexual assault in A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII.

Cersei is clearly telling him no, he won't take no for an answer and then she is telling him to hurry up given she can't really do anything about it given their situation and the rumours about them; being discovered may as well be a death sentence. This to me has always read like it was rape (though obviously more complicated given they are in a consenting sexual relationship with undefined sexual barriers). Obviously the writers of the show read that scene as if it was rape as well.

Now GRRM is clear that in his mind it is not. So unless you are an adherent believer of Death of the Author that scene in the book can't be labelled as rape.

One of the things that annoys me about that scene is it happens between the most hated female character in the series (perhaps the most hated) and one of the most popular male characters. Some fans response to that scene has been pretty disgusting.

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Its pretty uncomfortable

Quote

His sister looked over her shoulder. "Who?" she said, then, "Jaime?" She rose, her eyes brimming with tears. "Is it truly you?" She did not come to him, however. She has never come to me, he thought. She has always waited, letting me come to her. She gives, but I must ask.

Nothing about that twincest shit is comfortable

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its pretty uncomfortable

Nothing about that twincest shit is comfortable

Yeah it's yuck for sure & very uncomfortable. 

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12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is weird. I read the Cersei and Jaime 'sex' scene as sexual assault in A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII.

Cersei is clearly telling him no, he won't take no for an answer and then she is telling him to hurry up given she can't really do anything about it given their situation and the rumours about them; being discovered may as well be a death sentence. This to me has always read like it was rape (though obviously more complicated given they are in a consenting sexual relationship with undefined sexual barriers). Obviously the writers of the show read that scene as if it was rape as well.

Now GRRM is clear that in his mind it is not. So unless you are an adherent believer of Death of the Author that scene in the book can't be labelled as rape.

One of the things that annoys me about that scene is it happens between the most hated female character in the series (perhaps the most hated) and one of the most popular male characters. Some fans response to that scene has been pretty disgusting.

You make a good point Bernie Mac. In the sept scene Cersei couldn't have forced Jaime off of her, since calling the guards could mean her death as well. She seemed to give in to him at the end, but IMO it's still rape if you wanted to say no but couldn't do that due to surrounding factors and so had to say yes instead.

Cersei does coerce Jaime as well - like when she forced him to choose between Casterly Rock and her - but that doesn't have the same gravity to it. Jaime's life wasn't in danger, Cersei isn't physically stronger, Cersei does have power over him as his queen but as we can see Jaime easily disregards her objections or orders. 

In the end, I guess it's up to you and whether you prefer a Watsonian or Doylist perspective. George says it wasn't rape - but didn't D&D say that about same scene in the show which was pretty much unequivocally agreed to be rape? (Stated here). Twilight features an abusive relationship which is portrayed by the author as loving and healthy, but that doesn't mean it actually is. The concept of consent seems to be a very modern thing altogether and most of these books were written in the 1990s - 2000s. 

Edited by Peach King

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Cersei and Jaime do love each other - and Cersei likes it when Jaime takes her as a strong man forcing himself upon her.

But that doesn't change the fact that he pushes her boundaries and doesn't really take 'no' for an answer, especially not in that scene in front of Joffrey's corpse.

Cersei herself doesn't feel raped by Jaime, but as per modern understanding the way he has sex with Cersei (both in the sept and in the tower where Bran is watching them) would constitute rape by modern standards.

It isn't consent when you are used to fuck your sister since you are six years old and usually 'no' means '(sort of) yes'. You have to establish this each time anew, and neither Jaime nor we, the readers, can say we are sure that Cersei wanted to have sex with Jaime in the sept in front of their son's corpse.

She still loves him and she certainly would have wanted to have sex with him again ... but it seems the chances are very high that she was forced into that brute and encounter. In fact, it is the same kind of ugly thing Dany had to suffer with Drogo in her first night. Apparently Jaime forcing himself on Cersei made her so horny that she suddenly could only think of sex and agreed to everything.

And while I'm at that - this whole thing could warrant a reinterpretation of Cersei's treatment of Taena: Does she have this fucked-up a sexuality because of her marriage with Robert alone, or is this also a reflection of her sexual experiences with Jaime?

Edited by Lord Varys

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41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei and Jaime do love each other - and Cersei likes it when Jaime takes her as a strong man forcing himself upon her.

But that doesn't change the fact that he pushes her boundaries and doesn't really take 'no' for an answer, especially not in that scene in front of Joffrey's corpse.

Cersei herself doesn't feel raped by Jaime, but as per modern understanding the way he has sex with Cersei (both in the sept and in the tower where Bran is watching them) would constitute rape by modern standards.

I think that would depend on the individual, some people are into that stuff. 

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It isn't consent when you are used to fuck your sister since you are six years old and usually 'no' means '(sort of) yes'. You have to establish this each time anew, and neither Jaime nor we, the readers, can say we are sure that Cersei wanted to have sex with Cersei in the sept in front of their son's corpse.

I agree it has to be established every time & that we can't say for sure whether Cersei wanted to have sex in the sept but it does read as if she was willing enough, after her initial refusal - which I think was no real refusal. 

We aren't in her thoughts though so maybe she really doesn't want to, she really means no, & gives in because he is so persistent & she knows he isn't going to stop until she gives in. It's possible. The reason I read it the way I do, in part, is because of Cerseis character as a whole. She isn't a meek little lamb, she doesn't bend to the will of others easily, she makes it well known what she wants in most every other place in her life. She also uses sex to manipulate Jaime & we know she is never the one to come to him, so it seems this is how their relationship works. 

It doesn't seem unreasonable that she wouldn't want to have sex in front of her sons corpse though, so there's that. 

It also appears that Jaime doesn't feel as if he is forcing himself on her - not that that decides if it's rape or not. 

It seems odd to me, if she really doesn't want to have sex with him atm to say "Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Also Brans observation: "Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it,. Oh, please..." But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away. Her hands buried themselves in his hair, his tangled golden hair, and pulled his face down to her breast." Very much reads to me as someone who is saying no but meaning yes - playing a game or acting as if this isn't something she necessarily wants to do but he is so irresistible she just can't help herself, whether it is merely an act or the actual truth of the matter. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And while I'm at that - this whole thing could warrant a reinterpretation of Cersei's treatment of Taena: Does she have this fucked-up a sexuality because of her marriage with Robert alone, or is this also a reflection of her sexual experiences with Jaime?

That's very interesting & I think it probably does have some reflection of her sexual experiences with Jaime. Whether or not it is rape there is a show of force & an establishing dominance in their intimacy. She reflects that on Taena, but is this in an effort to recreate the situation with Jaime because it turns her on? Is it to recreate her sex with Jaime because she feels used & taken against her will & wants to establish that dominance over someone else? Or is it only to do with Robert? 

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5 hours ago, Peach King said:

ou make a good point Bernie Mac. In the sept scene Cersei couldn't have forced Jaime off of her, since calling the guards could mean her death as well. She seemed to give in to him at the end, but IMO it's still rape if you wanted to say no but couldn't do that due to surrounding factors and so had to say yes instead.

I agree with this definition: that it is rape if you wanted to say no but couldn't & so had to say yes instead. I think what matters here is if Cersei said yes because she felt she had no other choice, or if she said yes because she wanted to have sex. 

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

Cersei does coerce Jaime as well - like when she forced him to choose between Casterly Rock and her - but that doesn't have the same gravity to it. Jaime's life wasn't in danger, Cersei isn't physically stronger, Cersei does have power over him as his queen but as we can see Jaime easily disregards her objections or orders. 

Sure, Cersei manipulates Jaime using sex but Jaime is clearly a willing sexual partner, so definitely not the same gravity. I would argue Cersei seems to hold more power over him by manipulation through sex than she does as Queen, because as you said he will disregard her orders as Queen. She uses sex & sexuality to get her way with other men as well. 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying these men are being raped or taken against their will - they are willing. I'm only saying she manipulates them with promises & acts of sex. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think that would depend on the individual, some people are into that stuff. 

They do not seem to be roleplaying. Qarl and Asha are, Jaime and Cersei don't have clear rules established how their sex life goes.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree it has to be established every time & that we can't say for sure whether Cersei wanted to have sex in the sept but it does read as if she was willing enough, after her initial refusal - which I think was no real refusal. 

Eventually she wanted to have sex there, but that doesn't change the fact that Jaime forced himself on her. That is sexual assault.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We aren't in her thoughts though so maybe she really doesn't want to, she really means no, & gives in because he is so persistent & she knows he isn't going to stop until she gives in. It's possible. The reason I read it the way I do, in part, is because of Cerseis character as a whole. She isn't a meek little lamb, she doesn't bend to the will of others easily, she makes it well known what she wants in most every other place in her life. She also uses sex to manipulate Jaime & we know she is never the one to come to him, so it seems this is how their relationship works. 

Perhaps she doesn't come to him because she doesn't want to have sex as often as he wants?

Cersei only uses sex to manipulate people decades after she has started her relationship with Jaime. And her sex life seems to be defined by her being the one who is taken - by Jaime, by Robert, and by the men with whom she had affairs later. Like any beautiful woman she learned to use her beauty and flirty behavior to get what she want from powerful men she considered to be useful, but she only started to use actual sex with her as reward for men she depended on during the War of the Five Kings.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It also appears that Jaime doesn't feel as if he is forcing himself on her - not that that decides if it's rape or not. 

Yeah, that's completely irrelevant. Especially with a character as vapid and self-involved as Jaime.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's very interesting & I think it probably does have some reflection of her sexual experiences with Jaime. Whether or not it is rape there is a show of force & an establishing dominance in their intimacy. She reflects that on Taena, but is this in an effort to recreate the situation with Jaime because it turns her on? Is it to recreate her sex with Jaime because she feels used & taken against her will & wants to establish that dominance over someone else? Or is it only to do with Robert? 

It seems that Cersei was always taken in her sexual relationships - by Jaime, Robert, even the other men. And she wanted to figure out how that felt. She never had any real power in her life before, was always dependent on men doing things she wanted them to do. And that only changed when her husband and finally her father bit the dust.

Jaime was always the one in charge of their relationship.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They do not seem to be roleplaying. Qarl and Asha are, Jaime and Cersei don't have clear rules established how their sex life goes.

I'm not saying they are roleplaying, I'm saying some people are into being 'forced' or dominated. 

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Eventually she wanted to have sex there, but that doesn't change the fact that Jaime forced himself on her. That is sexual assault.

He only forced himself on her if she didn't want to have sex, a matter that is up for debate. She is able to change her mind. She may have originally not wanted to have sex & then decided she did OR she always wanted to & the "no" was not to be taken literally. 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps she doesn't come to him because she doesn't want to have sex as often as he wants?

Could be. Or it could be because this is how their relationship works. Or it could be because she doesn't want to have sex as often as he wants but consents when he does anyway, either because she wants something from him or because he has aroused her. There is just too many unknowns to call this sexual assault or rape IMO. 

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei only uses sex to manipulate people decades after she has started her relationship with Jaime. And her sex life seems to be defined by her being the one who is taken - by Jaime, by Robert, and by the men with whom she had affairs later. Like any beautiful woman she learned to use her beauty and flirty behavior to get what she want from powerful men she considered to be useful, but she only started to use actual sex with her as reward for men she depended on during the War of the Five Kings.

No, she manipulates Jaime into giving up CR early on. We have no evidence that she is "always" taken by Jaime in this manner & even if she is it does not mean she is raped. Robert certainly rapes her, but the men she has affairs with later she is the aggressor & pursues them. 

I disagree any beautiful woman "learns" this but it matters not to what I'm saying. She manipulates men with sex. That much is clear. The psyche behind it or where it started is not clear but we do know as early as her & Jaime being 16 she is manipulating Jaime with sex. 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that's completely irrelevant. Especially with a character as vapid and self-involved as Jaime.

It's not the deciding factor certainly but I don't think it's completely irrelevant in this particular situation. Jaime seems to abhor rape & neither he nor Cersei feel as if he has raped her at any point. Again, not the deciding factor but it does play a roll in deciding if someone has been raped. If Cersei had expressed in her thoughts or words that she only gave in because she felt she had to (whether or not she viewed that as rape) we would know it was rape. But the fact that neither of them think anything along the lines of it being rape & she doesn't express that she felt she had to go along with it & the fact that George has expressed it wasn't written to be rape, all point towards it being not rape. 

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems that Cersei was always taken in her sexual relationships - by Jaime, Robert, even the other men. And she wanted to figure out how that felt. She never had any real power in her life before, was always dependent on men doing things she wanted them to do. And that only changed when her husband and finally her father bit the dust.

I don't think she was always "taken" by anyone other than Robert - not that that isn't enough to give her these feelings, it is. We don't know how Jaime & hers sexual experiences always went, we have two of them amongst many & again, them having sex in this manner doesn't mean it's rape, although it does lend credence to your assertion that she wanted to figure out how that felt, never had any real power (this is pretty well established for all women), & was dependent on men doing things she wanted them to. 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime was always the one in charge of their relationship.

Kind of. They have an odd sort of relationship even out side of being siblings. Jaime will ignore her commands or orders if he wants but only to a degree & I think that may be pretty normal for any royal siblings where one holds more "power" than the other. You are much more comfortable & familiar with your sibling than a stranger & probably much more confident that they will not order your head to be removed as quick as someone who doesn't love you, hasn't grown up with you etc. But Cersei has what Jaime wants & he is clearly manipulated into doing things he may not otherwise by being allowed to have it. She holds the power there because it is her body, her vagina, hers to decide if she will give it to him or not. 

 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She still loves him and she certainly would have wanted to have sex with him again ... but it seems the chances are very high that she was forced into that brute and encounter. In fact, it is the same kind of ugly thing Dany had to suffer with Drogo in her first night. Apparently Jaime forcing himself on Cersei made her so horny that she suddenly could only think of sex and agreed to everything.

And while I'm at that - this whole thing could warrant a reinterpretation of Cersei's treatment of Taena: Does she have this fucked-up a sexuality because of her marriage with Robert alone, or is this also a reflection of her sexual experiences with Jaime?

Whoa! Cersei as a COCSA victim of Jaime's? That's dark.

It's possible. Cersei bases her identity on being sexually promiscuous like most victims of sexual abuse, while Jaime is laser focused on no one else but Cersei. 

54 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree with this definition: that it is rape if you wanted to say no but couldn't & so had to say yes instead. I think what matters here is if Cersei said yes because she felt she had no other choice, or if she said yes because she wanted to have sex. 

Sure, Cersei manipulates Jaime using sex but Jaime is clearly a willing sexual partner, so definitely not the same gravity. I would argue Cersei seems to hold more power over him by manipulation through sex than she does as Queen, because as you said he will disregard her orders as Queen. She uses sex & sexuality to get her way with other men as well. 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying these men are being raped or taken against their will - they are willing. I'm only saying she manipulates them with promises & acts of sex. 

I think she did want to have sex - but not right then. Not in the Sept next to Joffrey's dead body where the guards could have found them.

Jaime is the one who wants to play risky games, not Cersei  - Cersei says something to the effect of "you just had to have me" while talking about them having sex in the tower in Winterfell. He also was the one to initiate sex while Robert was sleeping next to them and blithely stated that he would just kill Robert if he woke up.

Cersei seems to think that controlling men through sex makes her powerful - but is that really what's going on? Robert assaulted her. She did manipulate Jaime, but Jaime also assaulted her. Even one of the Kettleblacks she was manipulating groped her against her will.

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