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Peach King

Was Jaime molesting Cersei?

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9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This proclamation seems a little faulty.
For instance here’s an outlandish or outrageous claim: Jon Snow is a werewolf.  I don’t think one could definitely say such a statement is proof of dislike towards a character.

Though it would be awesome wouldn’t it lol? 

And, this seems to rely on the presumption that everyone will have the same presumptions in regards to a given a character and that presumptions are reasonable in the first place

It doesn’t mean a single person’s interpretation of a given text is less valid by deviating from the norm.

No but when something is presumed with no evidence, & is made in a negative light toward the character, it leads one to believe the person making those presumptions don't like the character. 

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes I’ve freely admitted that she does indeed eventually comply-again she only does so after her refusals were summarily ignored.

She is allowed to change her mind. 

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Her actions  being she’s not punching Jaimie hard enough. 
That simply didn’t put up hard enough of fight or resistance, so her refusals can be ignored. 

Again I get she complies eventually.

But only after physical and verbal refusals were promptly ignored.

No, her actions being all the things that have been stated up thread that are indicative of wanting to have sex & consenting to have sex. 

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And, plenty husbands, boyfriends, do not see themselves as breaking any boundaries when they have sex with their partner going against their expressed refusal, or lack of of ability to expressly consent at a given time.

They don’t have to be willfully ignore the boundaries of their relationships-they could legitimately fail to have recognized they were there in the first place.

Indeed, that's why this is not the final word on the matter, just another building block in the tower of evidence. 

So, is it your belief that Jaime failed to recognize the signs that Cersei was truly not consenting? 

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s not hard to find stories of women while they were unconscious, being sexually assaulted by someone their long-term partner. They themselves often were uncomfortable on what happened to them. Often they ask if they are just making a big deal out of nothing. 
Most of the men who assaulted them probably did think they were not going outside their wive’s boundaries.

Sure, there are plenty of women who have been assaulted while unconscious, possibly even plenty that were assaulted by their long-term partner while unconscious but if that long-term partner believed that wasn't assault they are confused beyond reason as to what consists of consent & I have a hard time believing this is the norm. 

I disagree with the bolded 100%. If someone has intimate relations with someone else while they are unconscious they either know they are doing it against any consent or they are disturbed. I have a hard time believing there is some slew of men who have sex with their wives unconscious bodies & think they aren't going outside of any boundaries. 

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Or he simply doesn’t think he is raping Cersi. Plenty men(and women though to a less significant extent), have raped their partner and plenty would honestly say they love their partner after the assault.

He clearly doesn't think he is raping Cersei & Cersei doesn't think he is raping her. Who are these plenty of men who rape their partners & believe they haven't? I would presume this is the minority. Granted, I don't know the whole population or anything near that but in all my years on this earth, all the friends & family I have talked to irt these things, I've met one woman who was raped by her husband & he did profess to not understand he was doing anything wrong or against her consent but it was pretty clear that was a blatant lie. He is a very disturbed individual & knew exactly what he was doing. 

The point here is not that because Jaime doesn't believe he raped Cersei means he didn't rape Cersei, it's just another piece of the big picture. We can't presume that Jaime did rape Cersei because some men may rape their significant others & not believe they did. We have no reason to believe Jaime is one of these people & while, again, his feelings on the matter do not dictate by themselves whether or not he raped her, they are worth looking at when trying to decide this. 

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

They(like Jamie), just needed the release, and they(like Jamie), did not want to ‘hurt’  the person they loved much less rape them.

They’d most likely freely deride and be all for punishing rapists-they’d just not count themselves among that group.

Rapists are ugly, brutal, men, who force themselves onto people they don’t know.

Not good guys who’ve had long-standing, loving, relationship with the person they forced themselves onto.

Do you really believe this happens regularly? That normal, otherwise sane, loving, kind men take their partner by force because they just needed the release? That they don't see anything wrong with it? I'm not debating it happens but this would be the minority of men, not the majority. Most men would understand their partners well enough to know when they are consenting & what it means to have sex with that person when they are not consenting. They don't think it's ok just because they needed the release & didn't really want to hurt the person they love.

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I understand you know being a romantic partner with someone doesn’t mean consent for sex is always automatic. 

Yes. 

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Also, Tyrion, has refused to lay with Sansa unless she was completely willingly, and would undoubtedly try to stop Penny(who has literally tried killing him), from being sexually assaulted. 
But I would still count his sex with a literal slave who can’t tell him no, and has been commanded to obey him in terms of sex, as rape.

He can’t even use “a different culture” given he comes from a culture that abhors slavery.

Yes, but we understand that Tyrion has a different view on a sex slave (it's an abhorrent view) so it's not really comparable to how Jaime would view Cersei or how a typical man would view his partner. 

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again plenty husband, and boyfriends who’ve been together with their partner for years have failed to recognize sexual boundaries between the two. 

Who? Again, I'm not debating the fact that this likely happens but I don't think it should be the presumptive view on the matter. Likely, most men recognize loud & clear sexual boundaries with their partner that they have had sexual relations with for years. Some of them will not adhere to these boundaries I'm sure, but most of them would recognize them. 

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jamie could be selfish and apathetic towards his loved ones. He really wants to have sex. 

He could be but we don't have any evidence to suggest this is the case. Really wanting to have sex is not a justification in most peoples minds for ignoring their partners wishes. 

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If actually thought Tyrion would legitimately show hatred, or tremendous anger towards him over Jamie lying about her, he probably would have let sleeping dogs lie. Even after Tyrion does show anger at the deception-which made participate in the gang-rape of the woman he loved-he still asks Tyrion if the small man killed Joffrey. 
A person Jamie did not care for in the slightest.
Tyrion being made to participate in the gang-rape of his wife, and Joffrey’s murder.

I'm not sure where you are going with this, I understand you are saying that If Jaime thought Tyrion would show hatred or tremendous anger towards Jaime that Jaime wouldn't have told Tyrion the truth? I think he would have to be pretty ignorant to believe Tyrion isn't going to be angry or hateful towards hearing that & I don't really understand what that has to do with this, 

The second thing, I believe you are saying is: That after Jaime tells Tyrion the truth about Shae & Tyrion gets angry, Jaime still asks Tyrion if he killed Joffrey. Why wouldn't he? He wants to know the truth. Again, I don't understand what this has to do with Jaime & Cersei. 

3rd you say "A person Jaime did not care for in the slightest." Maybe, maybe not but still has nothing to do with this scene, that I'm aware of. 

4th you say Tyrion being made to participate in the gang rape of his wife - yes? & Joffrey's murder? He wasn't made to participate in Joffrey's murder. 

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or dense but I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Maybe you could explain a little more to me?

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

My point is this; just because Jamie is ignoring Cersei’s refusals could not be mitigated by the fact he loves her.

Yes, I agree, Jaime loving Cersei is not proof he didn't rape her. Looking at the entire picture though:

1. Jaime believes raping someone is wrong.

2. Jaime loves Cersei.

3. Jaime gives no indication that he believes he has raped Cersei.

4. Cersei loves Jaime. 

5. Cersei gives no indication that she believes Jaime has raped her. 

6. They have had sex on numerous occasions & thus likely know each others boundaries. 

7. Cersei's protests have been presented by the author to show this is a form of fore-play between them.

8. Cersei's body language & other actions show she is aroused, she wants to have sex, is reciprocating Jaime's actions, is consenting to have sex, & is helping to have sex.

9. -  most telling - The author, himself, has said this is not rape. 

 

In all reality we only need # 9. These are not real people, whose scenario has been laid out for us to judge. These are characters created by an author who is telling us explicitly that Jaime did not rape Cersei in this scene. I don't know how there is any arguing with that? You could argue he didn't write the scene to clearly not be rape but you cannot argue it is rape in good faith because the author has already told us it isn't. He is the supreme being on the subject. How can we tell him: I know you said it isn't rape but it is because.... It just isn't. You can argue how it appears but at the end of the day wouldn't it be more likely that you are reading the text wrong or gathering things from it that were not intended than that it is rape & the author, the person who created & wrote the scene, is wrong? 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/3/2020 at 10:33 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Undoubtedly. 
 

The bolded seems a contradiction to your stance.

You acknowledge he could physically rape her-but only if he had literally beaten her so bad that she could not put up a resistance.

Eh, is this supposed to be a 'gotcha' moment or what is the point of you writing this since not only it did not in any shape or form counter my point, it did not even address it? Yes, the only way Jaime could have raped Cersei was by beating her up so that she would be too weak to resist. And that didn't happen. Hence I can only conclude that you concede your point that Cersei couldn't have easily stopped Jaime if she wanted. 

What happened was really simple. Cersei badly wanted to have sex with Jaime but understood that the place is bad for that. Hence her initial contradicting reaction - she was protesting about the place but still allowed him to pick her up and undress her. Jaime, as someone who knows her really well, sees that that she indeed really wants it and allows him to take action, proceeds, since he doesn't care about the place. Cersei's internal fight then concludes with her desire winning and she fully gives in. 

At no point could Cersei have had sex without her will. She wasn't physically assaulted, she wasn't intimidated, she wasn't blackmailed, she wasn't scared into it, she wasn't drugged and there was no other reason why Cersei couldn't have simply stopped Jaime from doing what he was doing. If she actually did nothing instead of giving in, Jaime wouldn't even be able to insert his dick. So saying that Jaime raped her is rather silly.

On 3/3/2020 at 10:33 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh no.  When he saved her from being raped, from being eaten, and gave her the necessary funds and equipment to fulfill her duties he was acting like a hero.

When he’s killing a man who raped Pan he’s acting heroic imo.

I did not mean to imply, he was saint towards her from the beginning-far from it.

 But I don’t he feel developed a soft-spot for her in part because she reminded him of Tyrion. 
The two physically and morally couldn’t be more different save for the fact they’re appearances make them outcasts by default. I don’t think he’d raise much issue if his captor was a male about to be assaulted by the Brave companions no matter how morally righteous. 

I should remind you that Jaime tried to kill her after he started to see her as an outcast.

But in general, this idea that Jaime only saves outcasts to feed his heroic ego to me looks like a desperate attempt to reconcile the opinion that Jaime is a heartless asshole with his good deeds. Well, I'll then remind you, when Jaime first saves Brienne from rape, he first tries to convince himself not to do it:

"Stupid stubborn brave bitch. She was going to get herself good and killed, he knew it. And what do I care if she does? If she hadn't been so pigheaded, I'd still have a hand."

Was it his ego that overpowered him and forced him to scream 'sapphires'?

When he and Cersei were nine and he stopped her from torturing Tyrion, did he just want look heroic in front of Martells?

When he thinks how terrified he was when he had to hear Aerys raping Rhaella and being unable to do anything, was it just because he couldn't satisfy his ego of being a hero? And speaking about terrified, he thinks it shook him more than when he watched Aerys burn his Hand. And Aerys burning people alive traumatised him so much, he still, 15 years later, sometimes has nightmares about it:

"In his dreams the dead came burning, gowned in swirling green flames. Jaime danced around them with a golden sword, but for every one he struck down two more arose to take his place."

He still feels uncomfortable around burned places:

"A half mile on, green began to creep back into the world once more. Jaime was glad. The burned lands reminded him too much of Aerys."

Is it because of all the saving he didn't manage to do to feed his ego during the time he served Aerys?

Then this is his reaction after seeing Edmure in Feast for the first time:

"On it stood a solitary figure with a rope about his neck. Edmure Tully. Jaime felt a stab of pity. To keep him standing there day after day, with that noose around his neck . . . better to have his head off and be done with it."

Surely it's not just his ego trying to make him go and play a hero to Edmure?

Jaime even doesn't name horse because it hurts more when they die and has felt pity for that bear that almost killed Brienne:

"Below, the carcass of the bear still sprawled upon the sands, though only bones and ragged fur remained, half-buried. Jaime felt a pang of pity for the beast. At least he died in battle."

All of these examples clearly show that Jaime is simply an empathetic person. To the point that he was actually fighting it, though much less after he lost his hand.

Regarding him not caring about not outcasts, allow me to bring up Tytos Blackwood whose surrender Jaime took in Dance. Jaime refused to eat in the besieged castle, didn't want Tytos to lose his dignity by kneeling to Jaime in front of his people, then allowed Tytos to not kneel at all, didn't take Tytos' only daughter as a hostage after he asked. And Jaime surely didn't want to present himself from a good side, as before leaving Jaime has reminded him that Tytos should hate him and be scared of him. There is no playing hero there, Jaime was simply being understanding and empathetic during his visit in Raventree hall.

On 3/3/2020 at 10:33 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not exactly. He had his doubts on Tyrion’s complicity in the boy’s murder.
“Good. Then we will be well matched if we should ever meet again. The cripple and the dwarf.”
Jaime handed him the ring of keys. “I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?”

Excerpt From
A Storm of Swords

This is all after Jamie revealed Tyrion had been made to participate in the gang-rape of his wife.

Jamie equates the personal insult of Tyrion killing Joffrey, with what Tyrion went through with Tysha. Jamie further claims the girl had to have been a gold digger(pun intended).

Jamie didn’t care about Joffrey. He only asks if Tyrion did it because Joffrey was Jamie’s son-it was disrespectful to Jamie.

Jaime flat out tells that he believes the killer was Sansa but yes he has doubts but really, you should give him a break. Jaime has returned from captivity and is being surprised by people he loves left and right. He believes Tywin mocks him for being a cripple by gifting a sword, Cersei shuts downs any of his suggestions to be together, it's no wonder some doubts about Tyrion would also appear. And still, he thought that all those things Tyrion told him just meant to hurt him for Tysha until Jaime spoke with Lancel. Whether after Lancel confirmed Cersei's cheating Jaime started also to believe that Tyrion killed Joffrey is unknown because he never thinks about it, but anyway Jaime hates Tyrion in Feast for killing Tywin, not Joffrey. 

On 3/3/2020 at 10:33 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To be clear it’s not just Joffrey; the man does not care about his children in any real capacity althoghther.

Tommen is also hJamie’s son, and also his king. Yet the most pressing thing on Jamie’s mind when Cersi sends him a letter begging for help is how unfairly she’s treated him-not the fact that his son and King May be in danger. 

"Once he found the Blackfish, he would be free to return to King's Landing, where he belonged. My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer. He does like stamping papers with his seal. The boy might not even believe him, to be sure. Cersei would say it was a lie. My sweet sister, the deceiver. He would need to find some way to winkle Tommen from her clutches before the boy became another Joffrey. "

Edited by Dofs

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cersei was the one molesting jaime not the other way around jaime was the victim of CSA ( janiedean made a number of posts on that topic I believed  that I looked up a number of the posts and put it on here but it didnt work for some reason ( so go look it up on their  tumblr janiedean search csa or jaime abuse etc

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58 minutes ago, silverwolf22 said:

cersei was the one molesting jaime not the other way around jaime was the victim of CSA ( janiedean made a number of posts on that topic I believed  that I looked up a number of the posts and put it on here but it didnt work for some reason ( so go look it up on their  tumblr janiedean search csa or jaime abuse etc

I don't think so. Jaime is the one pursuing sex here, he was not molested in the slightest. 

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7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think so. Jaime is the one pursuing sex here, he was not molested in the slightest. 

Think he means that the whole relationship of the twins began from Cersei molesting him.

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1 hour ago, silverwolf22 said:

cersei was the one molesting jaime not the other way around jaime was the victim of CSA ( janiedean made a number of posts on that topic I believed  that I looked up a number of the posts and put it on here but it didnt work for some reason ( so go look it up on their  tumblr janiedean search csa or jaime abuse etc

janiedean is a Brienne X Jaime shipper and completely biased, her theory that Jaime is a CSA victim is shaky at best and her only argument to that effect is that Jaime doesn't remember exactly what he was doing with Cersei when they were fooling around together as children, which she thinks is because of disassociation.

Quote

Long before his sister’s flowering or the advent of his own manhood, they had seen mares and stallions in the fields and dogs and bitches in the kennels and played at doing the same. Once their mother’s maid had caught them at it . . . he did not recall just what they had been doing, but whatever it was had horrified Lady Joanna. 

This doesn't sound like dissociative forgetting - it simply sounds like normal forgetting of childhood events. 

In fact, it sounds like what Jaime forgot wasn't their first sexual experience. Based on the "once", it seems that they'd been playing at it for quite a while before they got caught. Jaime simply forgot what specifically they were doing that day, but he seems to remember other times pretty well. 

Given that the societal power imbalance favoured Jaime, Jaime's pushiness when it comes to sex, and Jaime's obsession with Cersei from a young age (whilst Cersei had a crush on Rhaegar) Jaime is more likely to be the abuser. But I don't think that's what happened either.

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47 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Think he means that the whole relationship of the twins began from Cersei molesting him.

I gotcha. Idk if we can say that either with any certainty though. 

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This forum sure as hell is obsessed with rape. Can't wait for a thread with 300+ replies about a deep analysis on how Bran raped Hodor by warging into him without his consent. Or how Ghost constantly rapes Jon by forcing Jon to warg into him and how Jon struggles to resist. 

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4 minutes ago, miyuki said:

This forum sure as hell is obsessed with rape. Can't wait for a thread with 300+ replies about a deep analysis on how Bran raped Hodor by warging into him without his consent. Or how Ghost constantly rapes Jon by forcing Jon to warg into him and how Jon struggles to resist. 

That's cause GRRM is obsessed with rape....lmfao

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Peach King said:

Given that the societal power imbalance favoured Jaime, Jaime's pushiness when it comes to sex, and Jaime's obsession with Cersei from a young age (whilst Cersei had a crush on Rhaegar) Jaime is more likely to be the abuser. But I don't think that's what happened either.

While I agree with the fact that Jaime probably doesn't remember what he was doing with Cersei when they were caught because he and Cersei experimented a lot and he doesn't remember what he did and when exactly, I do believe that Cersei is definitely much more likely to be the initiator. First of all, even though young Cersei had a crush on Rhaegar (that she had before she even saw him, she had a crush more on his position as the prince and heir, not him personally), she still were very obsessed with Jaime and were extremely possessive. Not only she hated all her female companions that were given to her because she suspected that they liked Jaime:

"Later, after they were separated, she’d had a string of bedmaids and companions, most of them girls of an age with her, the daughters of her father’s household knights and bannermen. None had pleased her, and few lasted very long. Little sneaks, the lot of them. Vapid, weepy creatures, always telling tales and trying to worm their way between me and Jaime."

She actually flat out murdered her best friend Melara just because she dreamed of marrying her brother.

In comparison while we know that Jaime did like Cersei from a young age, Cersei still had to fuck his brains out for the entire night so that he would join Kingsguard for her. Jaime actually didn't want to do that initially, even if he had to marry Lysa:

"But," Jaime said, "there's Casterly Rock . . . "

"Is it a rock you want? Or me?"

He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. 

And overall, even though Jaime can be pushy for sex, he does it because he knows he is allowed to, as he notices it here:

"She has never come to me, he thought. She has always waited, letting me come to her. She gives, but I must ask. "

In their relationship it's Cersei who is the dominant partner, not Jaime. In fact, Jaime was her flat out yes-man before he lost his hand. Before that happened Jaime in general had a very passive personality, he was always doing someone else's (mostly Cersei's) bidding, never initiating anything or asking anything for himself. When Jaime returned to KL after captivity and started making demands, he actually shocked both Cersei and Tywin. Cersei flat out says that he has changed just because he dared to ask her to marry him, something he has obviously always wanted:

"Cersei recoiled from his stump. "Don't . . . don't talk like this. You're scaring me, Jaime. Don't be stupid. One wrong word and you'll cost us everything. What did they do to you?"

"They cut off my hand."

"No, it's more, you're changed." She backed off a step.

Jaime actually starting to finally think for himself is actually one of his main character arcs. So it seems to me much much more likely that it's Cersei who started the incest and was the main driving force in their relationship (or in anything really) with kid Jaime just going along, submitting to a more dominant personality of his twin.

 

Edited by Dofs

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