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Nagini's Neville

What are Jon's reasons to fight his warg nature?

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I think this has a lot to do with being close to one's instincts. Warging ability seems to be lined up in age order.

The three youngest are the strongest. Bran and Arya are confirmed skinchangers and I'd be surprised if Rickon isn't as well. They're closest to their instincts and have yet to take on the adult roles in society which will make them more externally focused.

Rickon is about 4 years old and he's the one who is tied the closest to Shaggy Dog.

Bran slipped into this while being injured and after, took to it like a fish to water. Is able to skinchange Hodor but has had training. Before training, he fit in between Rickon and Arya with skill level.

Arya has dreams and when blinded, skinchanged a cat unconsciousnessly.

 

The three oldest children are transitioning into their adult roles in society at the beginning of the books and they're more focused on the external thus are further removed from their instincts. While any of these three may also be skinchangers, we don't really know yet for sure. Seems like the older you are, the tougher it is to learn.

Sansa was adapting to her role as Joff's fiance and future Queen. She's harder to say when it comes to warging beyond GRRM having confirmed that she is. Some speculate that she's unconsciously influencing some people around her. I think it's possible but I'm not decided.

Jon was transitioning to his role as a NW man. He's tripped into warging, but he hasn't shown anything to the degree of the younger ones yet. He's extremely overwhelmed by adult responsibilities and warg practice is like #1843 on his priority list.

Robb got dumped with the responsibility of rescuing his father and sisters, then he was Lord, then King. Catelyn's POV seems to hint that Robb was on par with Jon - slipping into it, but Robb seems a lot like Jon in that he had so many responsibilities that it was never allowed to rise to the surface to reach his potential.

 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

South of the wall, yes (you say probably, which i guess is accurate, but I say yes). North, sometimes. 

Ygritte wants to get into Jon's pants. She would say everything to prevent them from rejecting him. And you have to keep in mind that Ygritte and her gang are warriors - they are not the wildling sheep Varamyr ruled with an iron fist.

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

They say Brans the man for the job, but can he skinchange across the narrow?

No reason to imagine distance plays a great role there. Nymeria and Arya have a connection, and that connection does not have to be affected by distance. And, sure, Bran would be able to do that considering that he is supposed to see everything once he has trained more as a greenseer.

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I cant but help feeling that her hearing and smelling and, uh feeling, is not up to Faceless standard. She cheated, this isnt some stupid pop quiz, its preparation to make sure shes ready

Yeah, I also fear that this might backfire on her at some point in the future. She is not as good as she would have to be at this point in her training.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But what makes you say that? Is the only evidence the way Varamyrs family reacted? Or is there something else in the text that points towards them being ostracized?

We don't need more than that. Another thing we have is that there are no skinchanger families - neither Orell nor Varamyr nor Borroq nor Haggon are part of a clan or have a family of their own. They live with their animals and take on their characteristics to various degrees. A real skinchanger living his nature is less human than a normal human being. They become part animal. That is the price for the power they gain.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Is there a "camp" of skinchangers living on their own somewhere? 

No, they seem to live alone. They have their own gatherings of freaks, though, one of which Varamyr attended, but they don't live together. However, young skinchangers are taken on by others of their kind when they are discovered. Their normal parents do abandon them/get rid of them.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He ignores it & I'll agree he wants to be a normal guy, I just mean we don't really have his views on skinchangers to say he thinks of them negatively. 

I didn't say he was thinking negatively about skinchangers as such - I said he didn't want to be one himself. But if you don't want to be something yourself that also is a value subject insofar as you reject it for yourself.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I always got the impression Bran did want to be what he is - but I find Brans chapters incredibly boring & may have missed his negative thoughts on being a greenseer/skinchanger. 

Sorry, no. How closely have you read his chapters? It hits you on your face in Bran 2 that Bran still hoped the sorcerer he thought the three-eyed crow was could restore his legs so he could be knight. And when he ates the weirwood paste in Bran 3 he thinks that it is better to be a greenseer than just Bran the Broken.

Bran never had any intention to become some kind of sorcerer freak. Other people (and circumstances) pushed him in that direction.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know I just don't see the negativity surrounding being a skinchanger that you do. Maybe I just missed it. The only negative thing I remember is Varamyrs families reaction. I'll do some wiki search though & get back with ya. 

Again, that's more than enough. And we do know how people talk about skinchangers and wargs south of the Wall. This is not a positive thing, just as sorcery and magic in general are not seen as positive things anywhere in Westeros (or even in Essos). People fear and hate sorcerers of any kind anywhere.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I think in Aryas case it is something to give her a leg up, a little more power, so she latches on readily enough. Besides that she has never been as worried about how other people view her as Sansa or Jon. 

I don't think Arya even understands what she is. She never thinks about skinchangers or wargs as far as I recall. Could be nobody ever explained to her what that is.

Insofar as Jon is concerned we can expect him to become more beast/wolf-like after his resurrection. But I really don't think this will (or can be) a positive development. Human beings should not behave or think or feel like wolves. And there is a reason why George had Jojen warn Bran about spending too much time in Summer - Jon likely will be stuck in Ghost 24/7 for days, weeks, possibly even months, depending how long it will take for him to be restored to his body. And that's going to change him fundamentally, perhaps even more than dying did. When the second life starts the man disappears piece by piece while the beast gets stronger everyday.

Jon might not be as far gone as Catelyn after his resurrection, but we can expect to him be fundamentally less human than he is now. He is likely going to be a fundamentally changed character. For his human side it would be best, one assumes, if Ghost is going to be sacrificed or otherwise killed for him to become a man again.

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The three youngest are the strongest. Bran and Arya are confirmed skinchangers and I'd be surprised if Rickon isn't as well.

Yup, Martin has confirmed this years ago, all Stark kids are skinchangers, to varying degrees.

Q: Are all the Stark children wargs/skin changers with their wolves?

GRRM: To a greater or lesser degree, yes, but the amount of control varies widely.

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup, Martin has confirmed this years ago, all Stark kids are skinchangers, to varying degrees.

Q: Are all the Stark children wargs/skin changers with their wolves?

GRRM: To a greater or lesser degree, yes, but the amount of control varies widely.

Thanks for this! Thought he only confirmed they were all wargs.

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This seems to indicate they aren't bothered by wargs. 

Thats my line of thinking as well.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Hugorfonics That doesn't read to me like Jon isn't liking it very much. It sounds to me like he is missing his wolf & thinks the people saying he is a warg are mistaken - How can I be a warg without a wolf? 

Right, but he is a warg. Or at least was (and will be). But it seems from that line that hes questioning that, but not questioning 1being a bastard or sleeping with Ygritte.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very much disagree here. The quote you provided does nothing to prove that Jon isn’t “happy about it”. 

Perhaps that was the wrong phrase to use, I just think there is some shunning that Jon deliberately does.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte wants to get into Jon's pants. She would say everything to prevent them from rejecting him. And you have to keep in mind that Ygritte and her gang are warriors - they are not the wildling sheep Varamyr ruled with an iron fist.

For sure. Free folk are a special lot that have little in common with anybody. Kinda freaks in there own way. But they do make up, im guessing 25% of the wildlings, 

I mean, its a weird thing to be regardless, and Rattleshirt aint no fan, but still, some free folk are cool with it

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No reason to imagine distance plays a great role there. Nymeria and Arya have a connection, and that connection does not have to be affected by distance. And, sure, Bran would be able to do that considering that he is supposed to see everything once he has trained more as a greenseer.

Supposedly, Brans one in a million, blah blah blah, but maybe Aryas one in a billion? Lol

She also skinchanged while staying aware of herself, dodging the Kindly Mans hits. Has Bran ever done that?

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30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Right, but he is a warg. Or at least was (and will be). But it seems from that line that hes questioning that, but not questioning 1being a bastard or sleeping with Ygritte.

Yeah he does seem to be questioning it. Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. 

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

upposedly, Brans one in a million, blah blah blah, but maybe Aryas one in a billion? Lol

She also skinchanged while staying aware of herself, dodging the Kindly Mans hits. Has Bran ever done that?

Nope don't think so. To be fair Arya hasn't warged a human either. 

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On 2/25/2020 at 7:22 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

"The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it."

A Dance With Dragons, prologue

Is it just connected to his personality, that he doesn't like to "lose control" and that it is frightening to him? That he doesn't want to feel any more "not normal" as he already does at times, because he is a bastard? Other possible reasons?

 

If you just want to stop by to communicate how much you hate Jon Snow, could you please do that somewhere else! Thanks :)

Because Catelyn Tully taught him to hate himself. She's the only mother he's had and she made her mislike towards him no secret. 

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All Stark kids are skinchangers, and Bloodraven tells Bran,

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

 

So, Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Rickon are “one in one thousand”, and Bran is one in one thousand thousand. 

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On 2/25/2020 at 1:22 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

"The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it."

A Dance With Dragons, prologue

Is it just connected to his personality, that he doesn't like to "lose control" and that it is frightening to him? That he doesn't want to feel any more "not normal" as he already does at times, because he is a bastard? Other possible reasons?

A lot of good comments here already so I guess I am just adding one more voice and just a few things to the ideas Martin is showing us about Jon and his talent with Ghost.

What Jon is going through basically reads like the other "flowerings" we have seen in the story (Sansa in KL for instance). Yes, for a long time in the story Jon is confused at what he is and that is because he never had the pup to begin with from an early age (with the gates being closed as a large contributor) , you need to animal to awaken your talent, so to speak. Also, with so much maester influence in the rearing of children, the idea that this talent even still exists is not talked about as being possible anymore. BUT, Jon does get to the point where he knows he is a warg and doesn't deny it. I think he still needs some training, though, and that is why Martin put the likes of Borroq, Val, Morna,and Tormund in his vicinity to care for Jon and assist his after, just as Bran will most likely do in some way when Jon is "under".

The free folk know and accept wargs and skinchagers. It seems that if a parent doesn't have the talent, then they send their child to "foster" with those who can help them. We see this in a more extreme way with Varamyr because Varamyr is an extreme case of what not to do with a given talent- fly to high and get burned. A lesson that is not reserved for just the wargs of the story. Just as Drogon is an analogy for a sword above the world, so is Ghost a sword analogy, and we know from the Dunk & Egg stories, the sword shows who is "the king":

  • A Storm of Swords - Jon II

    ...Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor's sake, but he thought this must be the first time where a direwolf took the place of the sword.
  • A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

    ...He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

On the contrary to what is suggested about Jon losing control, Jon actually needs to become one fully with his wolf to gain control- a sword without a hilt has no control. Part of Jon's flowering at the wall is his full acceptance with what his talent curtails. That vision of a blue flower in the chink of the wall, that is adding up to be Jon having his third-eye opening experience in Ghost, probably with Bran as well at the same time.

Also, when wargs & skinchangers go the "gatherings", that is a term GRRM has used time and again in his past stories to basically mean gene-spreading by means of open/free sex, orgies in some cases. These are not permanent, out of contact, weirdo enclaves. These are the free folk, GRRM's analogies to his flower child, hippie-time brethren as well as using some Indigenous American details. This is what Martin favors above the opposite and internally fire-related incest of this story. Making everyone "mutts and mongrels" as we all should be, as GRRM has said before. Considering that in the story we also have mentions that "the old ways waken and the trees have eyes again", we might, might, see more wargs and skinchangers coming up in the story.

  • A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

    Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

    Not all skinchangers felt the same, however. Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella …

Jon (and Bran and Sam?) are going to finish making the changes that Rhaegar wanted to make before he was killed. We don't have all of those details, but can make reasonable guesses based on what we do know, and Jon being a bastard is not an issue here. Just as Jon had to make a "bastard's choice" when he had to refuse Stannis' offer of Val and Winterfell at the time, Jon (with Bran and Sam?) will make the "bastard's choice" that the royal Rhaegar was not able to perform. This has to do with Ghost and Longclaw and rubies. The bastard sword Longclaw (a likeness of Ghost) has garnet eyes, and in the story garnets are the "bastard" to the fiery and/or royal ruby. Rhaegar spilled his rubies and now it is Jon's duty (or whatever) to see the start of some changes that Westeros desperately needs. No, not everything will go smoothly, but these are broad strokes. Again, as Martin says, we should all be mutts and mongrels.

On 2/25/2020 at 1:22 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

 

If you just want to stop by to communicate how much you hate Jon Snow, could you please do that somewhere else! Thanks :)

I totally agree with this but good luck on this actually being observed :cheers:

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, they seem to live alone. They have their own gatherings of freaks, though, one of which Varamyr attended, but they don't live together. However, young skinchangers are taken on by others of their kind when they are discovered. Their normal parents do abandon them/get rid of them.

Seriously, I have no idea where any of this is coming from. Well, that’s a lie, I do know. It’s ALL from the prologue in ADwD, but you’re extrapolating and making Varamyr’s situation = ALL SKINCHANGERS EVERYWHERE. And that is pure bollocks. :)

 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

To be fair Arya hasn't warged a human either. 

Thats true. Shes done cats though.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

All Stark kids are skinchangers, and Bloodraven tells Bran,

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

 

So, Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Rickon are “one in one thousand”, and Bran is one in one thousand thousand. 

Bran is one in one thousand thousand. However that doesn't make Arya or Jon (and Sansa and Rickon (and Robb) I suppose) not a greenseer as well.

Bran taught Jon how to open his third eye, I think its possible for him to much further his potential

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21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Seriously, I have no idea where any of this is coming from. Well, that’s a lie, I do know. It’s ALL from the prologue in ADwD, but you’re extrapolating and making Varamyr’s situation = ALL SKINCHANGERS EVERYWHERE. And that is pure bollocks. :)

Varamyr's Prologue gives us a good view of the skinchanger situation north of the Wall. Haggon, Orell, Varamyr and Haggon do live all by themselves, have neither families nor clans.

They all keep to themselves, and they are all freaks (and the skinchangers who don't bother with wolves even more so than other - those airy bird fellows with their heads in the sky seem to have even more trouble to fit in with normal people than the more common wargs) even if not all are such freaks as Varamyr (Haggon, for example). But then - Varamyr was a very powerful skinchanger and chances are pretty high that he became the kind of creep that he was because he was part wolf, part shadowcat, part snow beard, part eagle, etc.

Skinchangers are part beat and part human mentally. They are not normal people.

2 hours ago, Travis said:

Maybe Jon will only eat raw meat when he is raised...

I've long suggested that this might be the case. I expect him to be a feral creature when he returns - walking around on all fours, sniffing people all the time, not pissing/shitting the human way, not sleeping in a bed, not being willing to live indoors, likinig his meat raw and bloody and freshly slaughtered by his own hands - that kind of thing.

There could also be a dehumanizing aspect if Jon-Ghost becomes a man-hunter and eater after the assassination - say, because Jon is in Ghost when Marsh's other goons come for Ghost and he rips them to pieces before he runs away. He could become a hunter haunting the Gifts before somebody fetches him back and eventually sets up the unification of mind and body. A living human Jon missing the taste of human meat could have a powerful symbolic meaning.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varamyr's Prologue gives us a good view of the skinchanger situation north of the Wall. Haggon, Orell, Varamyr and Haggon do live all by themselves, have neither families nor clans.

No, it doesn’t. Varamyr’s prologue gives us a good view of Varamyr, mostly. And how he is the exception, not the rule. IRT the bold, how on earth planetos can you know that? Answer is, you can’t. But your head canon tells you so, therefore it must be gospel. :rolleyes:

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They all keep to themselves, and they are all freaks (and the skinchangers who don't bother with wolves even more so than other - those airy bird fellows with their heads in the sky seem to have even more trouble to fit in with normal people than the more common wargs) even if not all are such freaks as Varamyr (Haggon, for example). But then - Varamyr was a very powerful skinchanger and chances are pretty high that he became the kind of creep that he was because he was part wolf, part shadowcat, part snow beard, part eagle, etc.

No. No, no, no, no. Varamyr is the creep he is b/c he is a creep. He is a disgusting creep long before he takes Haggon’s wolf and the other animals. Jeez Louise, Martin literally spells it out: he killed his brother just b/c he could and it amused him. And, as I’ve said, that happened before he was sent to Haggon, and killing his brother was actually what made his parents send him to Haggon. 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Skinchangers are part beat and part human mentally. They are not normal people.

“Normal” doesn’t exist. What’s normal to one person may be incredibly abnormal to another. 

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, that's more than enough. And we do know how people talk about skinchangers and wargs south of the Wall. This is not a positive thing, just as sorcery and magic in general are not seen as positive things anywhere in Westeros (or even in Essos). People fear and hate sorcerers of any kind anywhere

I think other posters have posted enough conflicting information to say, at the very least, Varamyr is the exception not the rule. 

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9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, it doesn’t. Varamyr’s prologue gives us a good view of Varamyr, mostly. And how he is the exception, not the rule. IRT the bold, how on earth planetos can you know that? Answer is, you can’t. But your head canon tells you so, therefore it must be gospel. :rolleyes:

Varamyr doesn't mention Haggon's loving wife, his children or grandchildren, siblings, cousins, etc. Varamyr was the only person living with him. Orell's family doesn't show up to avenge him and kill Jon when Jon joins the wildlings, and Borroq shows up alone and without friends or family at the Wall. That is more than enough evidence for me.

If you wanted to build a case for skinchangers being 'normal people' with friends and family you would have to point us to quotes indicating that there are such skinchangers north of the Wall. Prior to thje Prologue one could expect skinchangers to be more or less normal - but Varamyr's parents do not cut their ties with him because he killed their other son - they do so because what he is. A skinchanger freak. That's why they force him 'to live with his own kind'.

This is very telling. It means skinchangers are not normal people and different rules apply to them. If you have one in your family you cut your ties with them and hand them over to their own kind.

Also, why the hell is Haggon living alone in the forest when it is perfectly fine for a skinchanger to live with normal non-freaks?

Quote

No. No, no, no, no. Varamyr is the creep he is b/c he is a creep. He is a disgusting creep long before he takes Haggon’s wolf and the other animals. Jeez Louise, Martin literally spells it out: he killed his brother just b/c he could and it amused him. And, as I’ve said, that happened before he was sent to Haggon, and killing his brother was actually what made his parents send him to Haggon. 

Varamyr was just six years old, living a shitty life in a society where strength is all that counts, basically. He does an ugly thing, sure, but it is not that far away from Bran possessing Hodor to stalk Meera.

Quote

“Normal” doesn’t exist. What’s normal to one person may be incredibly abnormal to another. 

'Normal' in this context means 'having abilities normal people do not have'. Skinchangers and greenseers are magical freaks, not normal human beings. Just like dragonriders/the blood of the dragon aren't normal people, either, in this world (although they are less inhuman than skinchangers since they no not merge their spirits with the spirits of beasts).

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think other posters have posted enough conflicting information to say, at the very least, Varamyr is the exception not the rule. 

Varamyr is an unpleasant guy, but there is no indication that other skinchangers were treated differently by their parents, family, and kin.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Varamyr is an unpleasant guy, but there is no indication that other skinchangers were treated differently by their parents, family, and kin

We have Ygritte saying wargs have never frightened them & while I agree she would say whatever to for Jon, it doesn't mean the rest of them would just follow suit. Surely, if it weren't true someone else would say it right?

I don't know they aren't treated as you say but I just don't think there is enough info to say it for certain. We only have Varamyrs history for an example against Ygrittes claim that they aren't particularly bothered by them. 

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16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We have Ygritte saying wargs have never frightened them & while I agree she would say whatever to for Jon, it doesn't mean the rest of them would just follow suit. Surely, if it weren't true someone else would say it right?

I don't know they aren't treated as you say but I just don't think there is enough info to say it for certain. We only have Varamyrs history for an example against Ygrittes claim that they aren't particularly bothered by them. 

That they are not frightened by skinchangers does not indicate that they actually live with them and tolerate them in their villages and clans.

It just means they are not frightened by them.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

That they are not frightened by skinchangers does not indicate that they actually live with them and tolerate them in their villages and clans.

It just means they are not frightened by them.

No it doesn't but it doesn't mean they don't live with them or that they view them the way you say either right? 

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