What are Jon's reasons to fight his warg nature?

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No it doesn't but it doesn't mean they don't live with them or that they view them the way you say either right? 

No, it does say nothing about how the skinchangers are treated by the wildlings. That's indicated by how Varamyr's parents treat him. And by how Haggon and Borroq live (alone/without family/clan).

And as I already said - Ygritte is a warrior. Her saying she is not afraid of skinchangers is like claiming Gregor Clegane not being afraid of Bennis of the Brown Shield means the smallfolk of Lady Webber also has no reason to be afraid of Bennis...

If you have power of your own you speak from a privileged position. And Ygritte does have quite a little bit of power compared to Varamyr's parents or Gilly, etc.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, it doesn’t. Varamyr’s prologue gives us a good view of Varamyr, mostly. And how he is the exception, not the rule. IRT the bold, how on earth planetos can you know that? Answer is, you can’t. But your head canon tells you so, therefore it must be gospel.

No. No, no, no, no. Varamyr is the creep he is b/c he is a creep. He is a disgusting creep long before he takes Haggon’s wolf and the other animals. Jeez Louise, Martin literally spells it out: he killed his brother just b/c he could and it amused him. And, as I’ve said, that happened before he was sent to Haggon, and killing his brother was actually what made his parents send him to Haggon. 

“Normal” doesn’t exist. What’s normal to one person may be incredibly abnormal to another. 

So, just a question, do you think the fact that we have strong warg genes (and dashes of skinchanger) in some major houses like the Starks could be one example of wargs/SC's living with families? House Mormont is another, albeit, rumored skinchanger house and they seem proud of that tale (true or not). And Then there is the Crannogmen that could have some of these talents and they live in family units. And then even in history we "Gaven Greywolf and his kin", and the possible skinchangers that are the Farwynds. And possibly Rose of Red Lake that started house Crane. Orell was a free folk raider, which seems to me to be part of a group or clan and his talent is known and used openly. But even the other wargs/SC's wee see briefly are already part of some group that are with the non-talent free folk and they are all working together to survive; meaning, no one has kicked the wargs out and left them to die and defend on their own. Even Bloodraven still was part of a family.

Oh, and Osha doesn't seem to be scared or have any disdain for wargs and talking to trees and even takes Rickon to a place where there is a chance he can be helped with his own talents.

• A Clash of Kings - Bran I

  Osha lingered behind. "Is it the wolf dreams again?"

  Bran nodded.

  "You should not fight so hard, boy. I see you talking to the heart tree. Might be the gods are trying to talk back."

But, this is all wrong, right?

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, just a question, do you think the fact that we have strong warg genes (and dashes of skinchanger) in some major houses like the Starks could be one example of wargs/SC's living with families?

We don't have any confirmed Stark wargs aside from Ned's children. Instead, we learn that the Starks put down skinchangers and eradicated their families and bloodlines.

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

House Mormont is another, albeit, rumored skinchanger house and they seem proud of that tale (true or not).

What's the indication that there were Mormont skinchangers?

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And Then there is the Crannogmen that could have some of these talents and they live in family units.

No indication that there was ever so much as a single skinchanger among the crannogmen. There are hints that they may have had the closest ties to the Children of the Forest and have still access to many forgotten magical traditions, etc. but no indication that there were any skinchangers among them, ever. All we know is that Howland studied with the Green Men and Jojen is cursed with the green dreams.

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And then even in history we "Gaven Greywolf and his kin", and the possible skinchangers that are the Farwynds.

Gaven Greywolf was supposedly a skinchanger - and sure, skinchangers also do have kin and are also likely not thrown out by said kin when they rule over said kin as a lord of sorts or a patriarch over a bunch of children they fathered (Morgon Banefort might be another such case). But that is a different setting. If you are born to privilege and power - like Brynden Rivers was, say - it would be much more difficult for your family to get rid of you than if you are born as some fieldhand or nobody. Not to mention that there is also a difference in the manifestation of the gift/curse. If you are revealed to be a skinchanger as a child you are also more easily pushed away than if that happens when you are an adult and can fight back.

Varamyr also ended up fathered some bastards - and one of them actually ends up becoming a hostage at Castle Black.

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And possibly Rose of Red Lake that started house Crane.

That is a fairy-tale, about as credible as the idea that Lann lived to the age of 312 or the walls of Oldtown were built to keep some giant out. But, of course, skinchangers might have been treated differently back in the days when magic was practiced more often.

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Orell was a free folk raider, which seems to me to be part of a group or clan and his talent is known and used openly.

Orell was part of Rattleshirt's band - like Ygritte - and there is no kinship between her and Longspear Ryk and Rattleshirt, either. No friend or blood relation of Orell's is ever mentioned, nor does anyone ever try to avenge to poor fellow aside from his eagle. In fact, what we know about those skinchangers bothering with birds implies that Orell would have likely been a very weird fellow, keeping to himself most of the time, and being considered queer and odd even by his fellow skinchangers.

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But even the other wargs/SC's wee see briefly are already part of some group that are with the non-talent free folk and they are all working together to survive; meaning, no one has kicked the wargs out and left them to die and defend on their own. Even Bloodraven still was part of a family.

They are part of a migrating army, not a group as such. Varamyr was a lonely lord who eventually submitted to Mance. Orell seems to have been a skinchanger in Mance's service as well - a tool Mance used to scout and help protect his people from dangers on their march (both against Others/wights and the NW). There is no indication that skinchangers are part of wildling society the way normal people are.

Remember, Haggon wasn't part of the village or clan of Varamyr's parents - he was the skinchanger freak living deep in the woods away from decent folk. Borroq also has no family or friends and settles on the lichyard of Castle Black, as far away from living people as he can without living the place. He also comes to Castle Black alone, his only companion being the boar he controls. He seems to have no family, no friends, no clan.

And Bloodraven wasn't an open skinchanger at the court of Daeron II or Aerys I as far as we know. He kept this talent a secret. This seems to be the general way of skinchangers who aren't outed yet - Jon is called a skinchanger and warg by others, but he never comments on that. He never identifies as such a person. As long as you just keep pets and don't reveal or show that you control animals in a skinchanger way.

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh, and Osha doesn't seem to be scared or have any disdain for wargs and talking to trees and even takes Rickon to a place where there is a chance he can be helped with his own talents.

There is no indication that Rickon is going to get any help with his skinchanger problem on Skagos. Osha is in no position to treat the Stark children the way she would treat her own children if they were skinchangers. And it is technically not wrong to enable a young skinchanger to understand his nature and get instruction from another skinchanger - the ugly thing is that you actually cut your ties with such a child and dump him with the skinchanger 'to live with his own kind'.

She also doesn't seem to understand much or anything about skinchangers, no? She never tells Bran or Rickon what they might be, nor does she offer any help how to master this talent. Such knowledge comes all from Jojen.

And as for Rickon - I think when we meet him again he will be more beast than man, possibly in as worse or even worse a mental state than Jon after his prolonged state in Ghost. Rickon is far too young, has no discipline, and was already ruled by his anger, fear, and grief back at Winterfell. This is only going to get worse. He could be some sort of freakish beast boy, ruled by Shaggy (and possibly other wolves) rather than ruling them. This was the danger Jojen warned Bran about in ASoS and I expect that this danger wasn't introduced by the author to never become a reality for some characters. It didn't become real for Bran, but it could become real for Rickon and Jon.

[kissdbyfire]

On 2/26/2020 at 8:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

Varamyr doesn't mention Haggon's loving wife, his children or grandchildren, siblings, cousins, etc. Varamyr was the only person living with him. Orell's family doesn't show up to avenge him and kill Jon when Jon joins the wildlings, and Borroq shows up alone and without friends or family at the Wall. That is more than enough evidence for me.

This may be “more than enough evidence” for you, but this line of thinking does nothing for me. I mean, the fact that Orell’s family doesn’t turn up to avenge his death? Seriously?

On 2/26/2020 at 8:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

If you wanted to build a case for skinchangers being 'normal people' with friends and family you would have to point us to quotes indicating that there are such skinchangers north of the Wall.

Ditto. Point me to quotes that show skinchangers don’t have family and friends. My best guess is that there are skinchangers w/ family and friends, and others who live by themselves; and still, I think the latter group will most likely have friends, engage in trade, etc.

On 2/26/2020 at 8:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

Prior to thje Prologue one could expect skinchangers to be more or less normal - but Varamyr's parents do not cut their ties with him because he killed their other son - they do so because what he is. A skinchanger freak. That's why they force him 'to live with his own kind'.

No. They send Lump away to be w/ his own kind because he killed his brother.

On 2/26/2020 at 8:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

This is very telling. It means skinchangers are not normal people and different rules apply to them. If you have one in your family you cut your ties with them and hand them over to their own kind.

Quotes? Never mind, I know there aren’t any. 

On 2/26/2020 at 8:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

Also, why the hell is Haggon living alone in the forest when it is perfectly fine for a skinchanger to live with normal non-freaks?

Because he wanted to? Because his wife died? Because any number of reasons. Point being, we don’t know. Well, I don’t, you clearly do.

On 2/26/2020 at 8:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

Varamyr was just six years old, living a shitty life in a society where strength is all that counts, basically. He does an ugly thing, sure, but it is not that far away from Bran possessing Hodor to stalk Meera.

Are you serious? Are you actually serious? I can’t even. 

On 2/26/2020 at 8:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

'Normal' in this context means 'having abilities normal people do not have'. Skinchangers and greenseers are magical freaks, not normal human beings. Just like dragonriders/the blood of the dragon aren't normal people, either, in this world (although they are less inhuman than skinchangers since they no not merge their spirits with the spirits of beasts).

Assumptions and bias. Can’t say I’m surprised. 

On 2/26/2020 at 8:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

Varamyr is an unpleasant guy, but there is no indication that other skinchangers were treated differently by their parents, family, and kin.

There’s no indication other skinchangers were treated the same by their parents, families, and kin either. 

On 2/26/2020 at 10:01 PM, Lord Varys said:

That they are not frightened by skinchangers does not indicate that they actually live with them and tolerate them in their villages and clans.

It just means they are not frightened by them.

See above. Doesn’t indicate one thing DOES NOT = indicates the opposite. 

On 2/26/2020 at 10:39 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

So, just a question, do you think the fact that we have strong warg genes (and dashes of skinchanger) in some major houses like the Starks could be one example of wargs/SC's living with families? House Mormont is another, albeit, rumored skinchanger house and they seem proud of that tale (true or not). And Then there is the Crannogmen that could have some of these talents and they live in family units. And then even in history we "Gaven Greywolf and his kin", and the possible skinchangers that are the Farwynds. And possibly Rose of Red Lake that started house Crane. Orell was a free folk raider, which seems to me to be part of a group or clan and his talent is known and used openly. But even the other wargs/SC's wee see briefly are already part of some group that are with the non-talent free folk and they are all working together to survive; meaning, no one has kicked the wargs out and left them to die and defend on their own. Even Bloodraven still was part of a family.

Oh, and Osha doesn't seem to be scared or have any disdain for wargs and talking to trees and even takes Rickon to a place where there is a chance he can be helped with his own talents.

• A Clash of Kings - Bran I

  Osha lingered behind. "Is it the wolf dreams again?"

  Bran nodded.

  "You should not fight so hard, boy. I see you talking to the heart tree. Might be the gods are trying to talk back."

But, this is all wrong, right?

Preach, sister.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This may be “more than enough evidence” for you, but this line of thinking does nothing for me. I mean, the fact that Orell’s family doesn’t turn up to avenge his death? Seriously?

Of course it is evidence for me. Who do you think am I? You? For that I'd have to be one of those filthy beastling freaks...

Don't you read the books? Orell is with Mance's host, and that host includes family and children and other relations. If Orell had any family they would be with Mance's army - like Harma's, Tormund's, Styr's Mance's, etc. family. And they sure as hell would or should care about Orell's murderer joining them or about Varamyr stealing Orell's eagle, effectively ending his second life the same way Varamyr did with Haggon in the past.

You do not get to presuppose people who are not given friends and families and clans do have such things attached to them. Especially not when we have reason to believe that family would show up.

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ditto. Point me to quotes that show skinchangers don’t have family and friends. My best guess is that there are skinchangers w/ family and friends, and others who live by themselves; and still, I think the latter group will most likely have friends, engage in trade, etc.

And on what is that 'best guess' based? On nothing so far, because no wildling skinchanger north of the Wall does have normal friends, do they?

So far we have no wildling skinchanger with a family or friends showing up - and those who show up all give the indication that it is a skinchanger trade to live by yourself and with your animals. Because you are closer to them than to people and you take on their characteristics the longer you do your skinchanging thing.

Nobody said anything about skinchangers not trading. They do not exist in a vacuum. In fact, we do know that Haggon traded with the NW.

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No. They send Lump away to be w/ his own kind because he killed his brother.

That is nowhere stated. Varamyr killed his brother and that revealed what he was and then he was sent away to live with his own kind. He would also have been sent away to live with his own kind if he had not killed his brother and otherwise giving away his nature as a skinchanger.

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because he wanted to? Because his wife died? Because any number of reasons. Point being, we don’t know. Well, I don’t, you clearly do.

Haggon is just one example. The skinchangers at the gathering are all also queer folk who act weird, especially those bird fellows. These are not normal people and they are not seen as such and would not feel comfortable around them. They are living with their own kind for a reason. And even that doesn't last because there is no skinchanger couple or anything of that sort anywhere in the story.

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you serious? Are you actually serious? I can’t even. 

I cut a six-year-old 'murderer' some slack. Do you know 'Lump' fully understood what he was doing there? Do you also accuse Rickon of wanting to use Shaggy to lash out at other people when he was angry? I don't. He could have easily enough killed someone - and perhaps he has killed some people on Skagos and on the way there?

Bran is mind-raping and abusing Hodor in the worst way possible. He is invading his mind, possessing him like a demon. And unlike Rickon or 'Lump' he understands what he is doing because he is trained by the last greenseer while he is doing that - and has previously been informed by Jojen what he is and what he can do. He is still a young child, but he has been given the knowledge to know better. Yet he continues to do this thing and there is no excuse for it. It is just wrong. And it is made much, much worse by the fact that Hodor is simpleton who can neither defend himself against Bran nor tell anyone what the boy is doing to him. Hodor should be protected and cared for by Bran and the other members of the party, he should not be violated and mind-raped.

And on a much lesser level that's also true for all the animals those skinchangers possess. We can be pretty sure that none of the direwolves or any of the other animals the skinchangers mastered and enslaved were eager to be possessed by those human sorcerers. Not the dogs, not the wolves, not the direwolves, and definitely not the shadowcats.

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Assumptions and bias. Can’t say I’m surprised. 

Well, they are called 'beastlings' for a reason. Who wants to share or merge his soul/spirit/personality with a wolf or bird or bear? That is very ugly business. I don't want my friends to be mentally part dangerous predator.

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There’s no indication other skinchangers were treated the same by their parents, families, and kin either. 

Nothing indicates that Varamyr is a special case. The narrative point of the Prologue seems to be to give us insight into what it means to be a skinchanger. And the chapters does that pretty well. Skinchangers are people living among their own at the fringes of society. There are decent and ugly people among them, but their abilities set them apart from normal folk. This isn't even a problem. Varamyr never feels abandoned or complains that his parents treated him unfairly when they handed him to Haggon.

And it is also made pretty clear that Haggon's silly code is also, for the most part, nonsense. Why on earth shouldn't a skinchanger have sex while possessing his animals? Why shouldn't he or she enjoy everything he or she can enjoy using this magical talent?

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

See above. Doesn’t indicate one thing DOES NOT = indicates the opposite. 

If you want to make a case that the skinchangers north of the Wall in the books do have friends and family then show them to us. Give us the textual evidence for them being members of a wildling community and clan outside Mance's army.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course it is evidence for me. Who do you think am I? You? For that I'd have to be one of those filthy beastling freaks...

Oh how adorable, resorting to nasty personal attacks! Well done, what an amazing and convincing argument.

We will have to agree to disagree for now. 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh how adorable, resorting to nasty personal attacks! Well done, what an amazing and convincing argument.

We will have to agree to disagree for now. 

This wasn't a personal attack but a joke. If you want to participate in a discussion in a meaningful way you should have to offer something your opinions are based on. The baseless assumption that skinchangers are seen and treated as normal people and have healthy social lives and family and friends offscreen is just stuff in your head.

You could just as well insist that Joff is a nice guy whenever he exits a scene in the books.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Since he’s filled with self loathing, everything in Jon’s mind has to be unnecessarily hard and a “struggle.” The only thing he’s given permission for himself to do is to kill Ramsay, which is probably the most wolf-like he’s been. Otherwise he’s very good at reigning himself in. 

 

[BlackLightning]

On 2/25/2020 at 8:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

Even when people push him nose first on the fact that he is a warg and skinchanger he doesn't accept that. He doesn't want to be that kind of person. He has a connection to Ghost but that's all he wants to have.

Borroq is a loner who doesn't live with people. Only freaks are encouraged to live on the lichyard, I'd say. On what do you base the bold assumption that Orell was 'well integrated into society'?

It is an assumption what I think Northmen and other Westerosi would do to beastling freaks they discovered in their midst, yes. But it is not an assumption that wildlings do not suffer such freaks in their midst. They do not kill them on sight, but they cut ties with them and foce them to live among their own (i.e. we can say the wildlings are as 'kind' to skinchangers as medieval Christianity was to the Jews they 'encouraged' to 'live among their own' in ghettos).

We do know that the wildlings consider the skinchangers freaks because Varamyr's parents do no longer want to have anything to do with their child and hand him over to Haggon as if he were a freak and not a normal human being (and they are correct there).

Varamyr was not 'a nasty creep' as a child - he did something ugly as a child when the dog killed his brother, but that's not very different from Bran possessing Hodor and using him to watch Meera like a, you know, creep (especially since one has to take into account that the beast always changes the man - skinchangers are no longer normal human beings, they merge their spirits with those of animals and are thus no longer human the way non-skinchangers are). This is the classical 'invisibility corrupts' plot - skinchangers can do things normal people cannot - you can never know whether they do not watch and overhear and spy on you 24/7 - which is precisely what many of them do, especially the worst kind of skinchangers, the greenseers. There is a reason why the original First Men killed every greenseer they could lay their hands on - not just because their were Children and their mortal enemies but also because every sane normal person would consider someone with the unnatural powers of the greenseers and skinchangers a monstrous freak, and affront to humanity. Nobody likes people who can know everything about you and use that against you.

He isn't actively fighting it, he is just ignoring it. And that seems to be enough. Skinchanging is not something you *have to do* even if you have the talent. Sansa is a skinchanger, too, apparently, but her powers are very much dormant, at least at this point.

See above. This is the worst part of that. And it is no coincidence, I'd say, that Brynden Rivers never told anyone outright that he was a skinchanger (assuming he ever learned that while he lived at court) nor is it a coincidence that people spying on other people (like Tyanna of the Tower and Bloodraven) are vilified as skinchangers (i.e. people being able to talk with and use animals to spy on other people and ferret out their secrets).

This is just a horrifying thought for most people, especially in the civilized lands south of the Wall. But even the wildlings don't suffer skinchangers in their midst. One expects that they are only suffered up there because the lands are thinly populated and there is still space for skinchangers 'to make their own thing' away from 'decent normal people'.

The good folk of the Seven Kingdoms would likely not suffer a skinchanger who had 'come out' in their villages and towns. Exceptions would, of course, be skinchangers born in the elite or such who became useful tools in the hands of the nobility and royalty. But even they would likely need to keep a low profile and rub their true nature in everybody's face or risk that a mob puts them down.

There is not the slightest indication that there was ever a Stark skinchanger before Ned's children. I expected there to be some Starks who were rumored to be skinchangers/wargs in the distant past but there is literally nothing about that in TWoIaF. Not even anything about Starks keeping wolves as pets or something like that (like the Lannisters once kept lions).

This talk about the wolf's blood seems to be about a character trait which is common in the Stark bloodline, not anything about a magical talent.

And as Varamyr's inability to father another skinchanger (and the fact that neither his parents nor his siblings were skinchangers) as well as Bloodraven's lessons to Bran indicate skinchanging and greenseeing is not 'a genetic magical talent' - it is something that arbitarily pops up in the population of both Children of the Forest and humans. It is 'a gift of the gods' in this sense, basically.

Lyanna and Brandon were implied to be skinchangers. GRRM made it a point to have Barbrey Dustin highlight the fact that the two of them were extraordinarily good horse-riders even though that was a tidbit that was ultimately irrelevant to the make she was making. Lady Dustin even went so far as to call them "centaurs" and refer to them as half-horses.

That's not nothing.

I'm not sure if I agree with the bold part. I never said Jon was actively fighting it and I don't think he's so much as ignoring it. I think is avoiding it. There's a difference.

True, skinchanging is not something that you have to do. But it is something that happens subconsciously and unconsciously...occasionally against the skinchanger's will. Refer to Bran and Arya's wolf dreams. Jon finds himself slipping in and out of Ghost whether he is wide awake or fast asleep.

And, judging from the reaction of Qhorin Halfhand and the rest of his party to Jon's skinchanging power in Clash, I'm not so sure that **ALL** wildlings are hostile towards skinchangers. How many different tribes and clans of wildlings are there? Some may hate/fear and kill them, some may exile them, others may want them to keep it under wraps, others may worship them.

Qhorin seemed completely unsurprised about Jon and the way Ygritte and the others treated Orell which tells me something about how wildlings treat and feel about skinchangers. Tormund and/or Val are likely aware that Jon is a skinchanger.

Sansa's skinchanging gift is only dormant because she's been so cut off from any possible familiar: Lady has been slain, the areas of the Red Keep that Sansa was allowed to peruse was void of animal life, the Eyrie is almost as remote as it gets. I am also certain that things will change now that she's at the Gates of the Moon -- much more fertile ground. I suspect birds (or rather, a falcon for House Arryn's sigil)

[BlackLightning]

On 2/26/2020 at 6:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

I've long suggested that this might be the case. I expect him to be a feral creature when he returns - walking around on all fours, sniffing people all the time, not pissing/shitting the human way, not sleeping in a bed, not being willing to live indoors, likinig his meat raw and bloody and freshly slaughtered by his own hands - that kind of thing.

There could also be a dehumanizing aspect if Jon-Ghost becomes a man-hunter and eater after the assassination - say, because Jon is in Ghost when Marsh's other goons come for Ghost and he rips them to pieces before he runs away. He could become a hunter haunting the Gifts before somebody fetches him back and eventually sets up the unification of mind and body. A living human Jon missing the taste of human meat could have a powerful symbolic meaning.

The first paragraph: I can see that happening only immediately after his resurrection and restoration. But even then, it depends on exactly how long he is stuck in Ghost.

The second paragraph: ooh, I like the sound of that.

 

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Lyanna and Brandon were implied to be skinchangers. GRRM made it a point to have Barbrey Dustin highlight the fact that the two of them were extraordinarily good horse-riders even though that was a tidbit that was ultimately irrelevant to the make she was making. Lady Dustin even went so far as to call them "centaurs" and refer to them as half-horses.

That's not nothing.

I'd say that is nothing. In fact, there is no indication/reason to believe that great riding skills have anything to do with being a skinchanger - I mean, none of the skinchangers we know are known for their great riding skills, and I'd say that skinchanging an animal doesn't really help you ride since it would be counterproductive to see the environment through the eyes of the horse.

If Brandon and Lya were known to hang out with and being familar with various individual animals or at least one we would have a point there ... but there are no such hints for any Stark past or present aside from Ned's children.

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm not sure if I agree with the bold part. I never said Jon was actively fighting it and I don't think he's so much as ignoring it. I think is avoiding it. There's a difference.

I'd say he avoids it because he is uncomfortable with the whole thing - and that, in turn, is only the case because he is not comfortable with being a skinchanger and what that entails. If skinchanging was a great and possible natural gift, something that makes people as famous as being a Kingsguard does, Jon would eagerly explore that - but this isn't the case both north and south of the Wall.

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

True, skinchanging is not something that you have to do. But it is something that happens subconsciously and unconsciously...occasionally against the skinchanger's will. Refer to Bran and Arya's wolf dreams. Jon finds himself slipping in and out of Ghost whether he is wide awake or fast asleep.

Yeah, and that's also something Jon does not enjoy. He is aware he has this connection, but is not willing to explore it actively, to make use of this connection he has with Ghost. He doesn't even figure out that Ghost being wary or nervous or aggressive can have meaning for him (that even Robb and Cat figured out).

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

And, judging from the reaction of Qhorin Halfhand and the rest of his party to Jon's skinchanging power in Clash, I'm not so sure that **ALL** wildlings are hostile towards skinchangers. How many different tribes and clans of wildlings are there? Some may hate/fear and kill them, some may exile them, others may want them to keep it under wraps, others may worship them.

I'd say there are context in which skinchangers are used by the wildlings - and there are contexts were powerful wildlings like Varamyr subdue and use normal people - but those would be in raiding parties, warfare, and scouting, i.e. in limited and dangerous circumstances. When you have to live with a skinchanger in your village or tribe chances are very high that more and more people would start to loathe and hate him because he had powers they didn't have, powers they could not be sure he would not use against them - either to spy on them or to attack them.

Skinchangers really are small dragonriders trying to live among 'normal people' - think of the trouble Rhaena Targaryen had to live on Fair Isle. She still was a queen and a Targaryen there, but people both worship and fear dragons, and if push comes to shove (like it did during the Dance) people will kill those beasts (and their riders, if they can get them).

A skinchanger can be as nice and sympathetic and supportive as you want him to be - he will be always apart from normal people and thus always be under suspicion.

And for good reason, I'd say, because their connection with the animals mentally changes them. They become more like them as time passes. If you think about it - how would you react if your spouse's pet would try hit on you after his/her death because it wanted to continue your sex life in his/her second life? Or only be close to you? All that is very, very weird.

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Qhorin seemed completely unsurprised about Jon and the way Ygritte and the others treated Orell which tells me something about how wildlings treat and feel about skinchangers. Tormund and/or Val are likely aware that Jon is a skinchanger.

We don't really know how Orell was treated, but as I think I've shown above - Orell doesn't seem to have had family or friends who valued his life enough to want to avenge his death - and his eagle was handed to Varamyr who took it over, preventing Orell's proper second life.

My guess would be that Orell was more one of Mance's skinchanger assets - a bird handler he valued for the service he could give them - not necessarily a great friend or companion.

You have to keep in mind that when we talk about raiders and warchiefs and spearwives we talk about the fighting elite of the wildlings - such men would not be afraid of skinchangers, just as they would not be afraid of many other warriors and such. But Varamyr terrified the people of the villages he ruled. Granted, Orell, having only a single bird, would just be an odd bird, not one to inspire hate and fear because he wasn't as powerful as Varamyr, but he would be seen as queer and strange for other reasons (those bird skinchangers apparently are very strange folk even for skinchangers).

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Sansa's skinchanging gift is only dormant because she's been so cut off from any possible familiar: Lady has been slain, the areas of the Red Keep that Sansa was allowed to peruse was void of animal life, the Eyrie is almost as remote as it gets. I am also certain that things will change now that she's at the Gates of the Moon -- much more fertile ground. I suspect birds (or rather, a falcon for House Arryn's sigil)

I don't think that makes much sense, actually. The Red Keep would be crawling with animal life - birds, mice, rats, insects, dogs, cats, horses, chickens, pigs, possibly even cattle. And at the Eyrie there would be cats and dogs and mice and rats, too, one assumes, and the courts would also be full of birds (although as winter approaches some of them would have left).

The impression I get is that the direwolves activated the skinchanger talent and they are the only link the untrained skinchangers retain - Arya only expands her skinchanger vision, so to speak, because she loses her eyes. If any of the other children lost their eyes or their ears or their sense of smell they would likely also intuitively compensate for that loss by using the eyes, ears, or noses of the animals in their vicinity.

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The first paragraph: I can see that happening only immediately after his resurrection and restoration. But even then, it depends on exactly how long he is stuck in Ghost.

I think we did not get that whole 'second life' plot in Varamyr's Prologue if that wasn't supposed to play out in some fashion - and nobody expects Varamyr to be the hero in his own second life story, right? Varamyr-One Eye might play some role in Bran's story since they joined Summer, but that's it. Jon is the very reason why George introduced the plot of the second life of skinchangers - and if that wasn't a big part of the story of Jon's murder I really don't see what the point of it is.

In that sense, I think we can bury the idea that Jon is going to be killed and just going to be resurrected in a couple of days (or even the usual fortnight). This is going to be a longer process which, in my opinion, will likely stretch throughout half or the entire TWoW, depending how prominent the Wall plot will be in that book. With Mel we have successor for Jon's POV at the Wall, and to cover the second life plot there could 1-2 Ghost chapters.

In fact, if you think about it this whole plot does explain why the hell Jon's direwolf was named 'Ghost' in the first place - because he will be Jon Snow's ghost, what remains of him after his death.

Somebody should really ask George since when he knew he would kill Jon to have him live in Ghost for a time - was this already the plan back when he wrote AGoT?

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The second paragraph: ooh, I like the sound of that.

Yeah, there is a lot of potential there. The caveat is that this really takes Jon's story in a completely different direction but we have to deal with that. George wouldn't have killed him if he didn't want to go there.