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Lord Manderly and the Rat King


LadyBlackwater

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Okay so in the Reek chapter where Ramsay marries “Arya”, they have a feast. At this feast Lord Manderly makes a big deal out of this delicious pie in which the best pork they’re ever like to taste is used. He then calls for the singers to give them a song about the rat king. Sooooooo who was in the pie? I’m guessing a Frey but I have no proof. Any thoughts?

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On 2/25/2020 at 4:22 PM, LadyBlackwater said:

Okay so in the Reek chapter where Ramsay marries “Arya”, they have a feast. At this feast Lord Manderly makes a big deal out of this delicious pie in which the best pork they’re ever like to taste is used. He then calls for the singers to give them a song about the rat king. Sooooooo who was in the pie? I’m guessing a Frey but I have no proof. Any thoughts?

Three Freys went missing after the Manderly's left White Harbor: Rhaegar, Jared and Symond. Wymar gave them palfry's as parting gifts (meaning they were no longer under his protection) and they went on ahead since Wyman moves slowly on his litter. So three missing Freys; three big pies, which Wymar eats while requesting the Rat King song.

The question is, would Wymar eat pies that he knows contain human flesh? Probably not. But would he eat pork that came from pigs that had eaten human flesh? Yeah, I think so. 

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34 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Three Freys went missing after the Manderly's left White Harbor: Rhaegar, Jared and Symond. Wymar gave them palfry's as parting gifts (meaning they were no longer under his protection) and they went on ahead since Wyman moves slowly on his litter. So three missing Freys; three big pies, which Wymar eats while requesting the Rat King song.

The question is, would Wymar eat pies that he knows contain human flesh? Probably not. But would he eat pork that came from pigs that had eaten human flesh? Yeah, I think so. 

Given how much Wyman hates the Freys I’d say human flesh maybe not, but Frey flesh, hell yeah.

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21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Given how much Wyman hates the Freys I’d say human flesh maybe not, but Frey flesh, hell yeah.

Eh, I don't know about that. Think of your worst enemy who you loathe and despise with all your heart and soul for murdering your son. Would you want any part of their filth in your body? I'll bet my hat that he chopped them up, fed them to the pigs, then put the pigs in the pie.

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, I don't know about that. Think of your worst enemy who you loathe and despise with all your heart and soul for murdering your son. Would you want any part of their filth in your body? I'll bet my hat that he chopped them up, fed them to the pigs, then put the pigs in the pie.

Maybe we will find out one day. But the way he gleefully serves Roose and some Freys makes me think it’s Frey pie he’s serving, not Frey-fed pork.

ADwD, The Prince of Winterfell 

“The Lord of White Harbor had furnished the food and drink, black stout and yellow beer and wines red and gold and purple, brought up from the warm south on fat-bottomed ships and aged in his deep cellars. The wedding guests gorged on cod cakes and winter squash, hills of neeps and great round wheels of cheese, on smoking slabs of mutton and beef ribs charred almost black, and lastly on three great wedding pies, as wide across as wagon wheels, their flaky crusts stuffed to bursting with carrots, onions, turnips, parsnips, mushrooms, and chunks of seasoned pork swimming in a savory brown gravy. Ramsay hacked off slices with his falchion and Wyman Manderly himself served, presenting the first steaming portions to Roose Bolton and his fat Frey wife, the next to Ser Hosteen and Ser Aenys, the sons of Walder Frey. “The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords,” the fat lord declared. “Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall.”

 

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4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, I don't know about that. Think of your worst enemy who you loathe and despise with all your heart and soul for murdering your son. Would you want any part of their filth in your body? I'll bet my hat that he chopped them up, fed them to the pigs, then put the pigs in the pie.

Are you saying that it is pig in the pie, and not the three Freys? I am pretty sure GRRM confirmed Freys a while ago at EasterCon (I think that was the name) as well as what the book text shows us. Gimme a sec and I'll take a look.

Adding: I have looked online and there are several references to this con (yes, EasterCon in 2012), but all of the links take you to a 'broken' video/website/whatever. I guess some pages have expired since it's been a while?:dunno: Maybe @Ran knows for sure because it is the same in the SSM's.

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13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Are you saying that it is pig in the pie, and not the three Freys? I am pretty sure GRRM confirmed Freys a while ago at EasterCon (I think that was the name) as well as what the book text shows us. Gimme a sec and I'll take a look.

Damn it, where’s my memory pill? I was there, and I totally forgot all about this! :bang:

After reading your post and banging my head on the wall a bit, i looked it up and found a link, but it’s not working. 

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Ok, the link to the video interview is not working, but here’s a part of the interview:

Interviewer(/u/Werthead): Lot of people think the HBO gave up the whole Renly and Loras relationship. And lot of people are saying, "oh they're not getting the books. That's absolute rubbish."

GRRM: No, those people are wrong. They are lovers in the book. I hesitate to use the word gay, because that's actually a modern word that was only applied to the homosexual relationships...I think in the late 60s or early 70s was when it acquired that meaning. But yeah, Loras and Renly were always intended to be involved with each other romantically and sexually, and to be lovers. And there are numerous places where that is indicated in the books. It is indicated subtly since neither of them is a viewpoint character, but it's there. You know, I actually like subtlety. One of the things the HBO--I mean television by its very nature is less subtle. You don't want the audience to be confused, you don't want to leave too much ambiguity. But prose is a different thing. And as a novelist, I like subtlety, I like ambiguity, I like leaving things that my readers need to figure out. And some of them will find it, and some of them maybe won't find it. And then they'll be discussing it with each other and say, "did you notice this thing? Oh my god I didn't notice that. But now that you say it, yes of course that's true!" I think that's one of the pleasures of reading and discussing the books you've read with other people. Television is different, so I expect there are a number of other things that you will see in later seasons too, that if they do make it where I have handled things with a certain amount of subtlety, they will be more explicit in the series. For example, if we get to Dance with Dragons, the...the...the pies that Lord Manderly serves to the occupiers of Winterfell, that's...Not everybody gets that in the books. But I suspect it will be more explicit when we get to the TV series. But we'll see, I don't know. But no, that was not an invention of HBO, no.

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16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Are you saying that it is pig in the pie, and not the three Freys? I am pretty sure GRRM confirmed Freys a while ago at EasterCon (I think that was the name) as well as what the book text shows us. Gimme a sec and I'll take a look.

Adding: I have looked online and there are several references to this con (yes, EasterCon in 2012), but all of the links take you to a 'broken' video/website/whatever. I guess some pages have expired since it's been a while?:dunno: Maybe @Ran knows for sure because it is the same in the SSM's.

 

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ok, the link to the video interview is not working, but here’s a part of the interview:

Interviewer(/u/Werthead): Lot of people think the HBO gave up the whole Renly and Loras relationship. And lot of people are saying, "oh they're not getting the books. That's absolute rubbish."

GRRM: No, those people are wrong. They are lovers in the book. I hesitate to use the word gay, because that's actually a modern word that was only applied to the homosexual relationships...I think in the late 60s or early 70s was when it acquired that meaning. But yeah, Loras and Renly were always intended to be involved with each other romantically and sexually, and to be lovers. And there are numerous places where that is indicated in the books. It is indicated subtly since neither of them is a viewpoint character, but it's there. You know, I actually like subtlety. One of the things the HBO--I mean television by its very nature is less subtle. You don't want the audience to be confused, you don't want to leave too much ambiguity. But prose is a different thing. And as a novelist, I like subtlety, I like ambiguity, I like leaving things that my readers need to figure out. And some of them will find it, and some of them maybe won't find it. And then they'll be discussing it with each other and say, "did you notice this thing? Oh my god I didn't notice that. But now that you say it, yes of course that's true!" I think that's one of the pleasures of reading and discussing the books you've read with other people. Television is different, so I expect there are a number of other things that you will see in later seasons too, that if they do make it where I have handled things with a certain amount of subtlety, they will be more explicit in the series. For example, if we get to Dance with Dragons, the...the...the pies that Lord Manderly serves to the occupiers of Winterfell, that's...Not everybody gets that in the books. But I suspect it will be more explicit when we get to the TV series. But we'll see, I don't know. But no, that was not an invention of HBO, no.

 

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe we will find out one day. But the way he gleefully serves Roose and some Freys makes me think it’s Frey pie he’s serving, not Frey-fed pork.

ADwD, The Prince of Winterfell 

“The Lord of White Harbor had furnished the food and drink, black stout and yellow beer and wines red and gold and purple, brought up from the warm south on fat-bottomed ships and aged in his deep cellars. The wedding guests gorged on cod cakes and winter squash, hills of neeps and great round wheels of cheese, on smoking slabs of mutton and beef ribs charred almost black, and lastly on three great wedding pies, as wide across as wagon wheels, their flaky crusts stuffed to bursting with carrots, onions, turnips, parsnips, mushrooms, and chunks of seasoned pork swimming in a savory brown gravy. Ramsay hacked off slices with his falchion and Wyman Manderly himself served, presenting the first steaming portions to Roose Bolton and his fat Frey wife, the next to Ser Hosteen and Ser Aenys, the sons of Walder Frey. “The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords,” the fat lord declared. “Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall.”

 

But you see how none of this confirms it is actual Frey flesh in the pies. Manderly is not a cannibal. But he would take glee in eating pork that came from pigs that ate the flesh of his enemies, and serving it to his surviving enemies. This way, he gets his revenge without running afoul of the cultural strictures against cannibalism.

And while it is said that human flesh is similar to pork in taste and smell, I would think there are differences -- but I'm too chicken to Google it. :wideeyed:

Anyway, it's just a thought. We'll probably never know.

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