Formula One 2020

[red snow]

I think it might be that the red bull is designed to fit Max's driving style and it wasn't gasly's as he's always been strong in the b team. I think he was getting better results in the toro rosso.

If mercedes wanted to entertain us they'd give us someone more competitive than Hamilton. Given how far ahead they are they could have two drivers fight for the championship and still win as no one else is even close 

Stick vettel there for a year and I'm sure it'd get a lot of attention. I fear it might embarass vettel but he's always been strong leading from the front.

Bottas should consider a move where he'd be the top driver. Maybe racing point or if williams improve back there. I guess it's tricky for him. It's not like he'd beat Hamilton in any other car so based on that logic he's better getting consistent podiums and the occasional win as the sidekick. It just makes for dull racing with the advantage Hamilton has. Button and Alonso have both shown they can match Hamilton and I'm sure there are several drivers who'd cause him to sweat eg leclerc, ricciardo and Max.

As i said it'd make a nice changing of the guard if we had russel and Hamilton together. Maybe mercedes are waiting for signs of Hamilton slowing down before that though.

[williamjm]

I did feel sorry for Hulkenberg not even getting to take the start of the race. It's particularly bad because it also denies him lots of time in the car ahead of the next race (assuming Perez is still absent).

I wonder if Red Bull are going to be a bit more reluctant to pit for the fastest lap in the future? It was a reasonable move at the time but it probably cost them a race victory here.

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, williamjm said:

I wonder if Red Bull are going to be a bit more reluctant to pit for the fastest lap in the future? It was a reasonable move at the time but it probably cost them a race victory here.

Pitting for the fastest lap is a new thing which I suspect is going to go out the window (in most cases) the second they have a problem: someone pits for the fastest lap and they have a hugely overlong pit stop that costs them a place on track, or the wheel comes flying off by accident. There'll still be a temptation to do it - if a driver like Verstappen can nail it almost every race with a strategic pit stop, that's the equivalent of an extra podium finish over the course of a season - but there'll also be caution.

Verstappen noted that pitting was the sensible thing to do, as the tyres were all coming undone at around the same time and he could have lost his tyre as well if he'd stayed out, so it was better to make sure of 2nd. Although I think the post-race analysis of the tyres showed that Max's styres were still in reasonably good shape, unlike the Mercs which had been taking heavy damage all race, one of the problems of running out ahead of everyone else is that they were the first to hit the debris areas at speed after each restart.

[williamjm]

It was looking like it might be another case of Hamilton dominating but Bottas managed to get ahead of him at the end. It might make the race tomorrow a bit more contested, although it's hard to see any winner that's not in a Mercedes unless something unexpected happens (of course, that very nearly happened last week).

Good to see Hulkenberg managing to get best-of-the-rest. It's an impressive improvement on last week and he was clearly faster than Stroll this time. Hopefully he'll actually get to start this race as well.

[red snow]

8 minutes ago, williamjm said:

It was looking like it might be another case of Hamilton dominating but Bottas managed to get ahead of him at the end. It might make the race tomorrow a bit more contested, although it's hard to see any winner that's not in a Mercedes unless something unexpected happens (of course, that very nearly happened last week).

Good to see Hulkenberg managing to get best-of-the-rest. It's an impressive improvement on last week and he was clearly faster than Stroll this time. Hopefully he'll actually get to start this race as well.

Hopefully a tussle or upset at the start with the mercedes will keep the race alive. Hopefully Hulkenberg will be fine although he's out of practice starting and has rarely, if ever started so far up the grid. My fingers are crossed for a good result for him but getting third should make the likes of Hass, alpha tauri, alf romeo and maybe even red bull take notice.

[williamjm]

7 minutes ago, red snow said:

Hopefully a tussle or upset at the start with the mercedes will keep the race alive. Hopefully Hulkenberg will be fine although he's out of practice starting and has rarely, if ever started so far up the grid.

He did have a pole position for Williams once.

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, williamjm said:

He did have a pole position for Williams once.

He got a pole for Williams in the 2010 Brazilian Grand Prix, a second place start in Austria 2016 and a third place start at Italy 2013, so this is his joint third-best qualifying performance. However, all of these were with a subpar car (especially the 2010 Williams). He's never had as strong a car under him as the 2020 Racing Point. If he gets a podium tomorrow, I think that forces Racing Point to start looking seriously at having a better driver in the car even if Vettel decides to pass on the seat, because there's no point having this amazing (if borderline illegal) package if neither of their current drivers can capitalise on it. Getting Hulkenberg to sub for Perez next year if the Vettel deal doesn't work out could be a good idea (bit sad for Checo, but if Kimi decides not to carry on, there's at least a window for him there, and Alfa might need the sponsorship money more).

Hulk's best result is still 4th (Belgium 2012, Korea 2013, Belgium 2016). Probably his closest chance for victory was at the 2012 Brazilian Grand Prix when he was leading for much of the race, but unfortunately a safety car brought the field back together and he wound up colliding with the back of Hamilton's car after an opportunistic pass. He finished 2nd but was demoted three points for causing a collision.

Meanwhile, WTF is going on with Vettel. If he carries on like this, I can see Ferrari losing patience and swapping him out mid-season. Yeah, the car's not great, but Leclerc is maximising every opportunity and Vettel is just sulking around.

Bit homework for people: can anyone think of a driver pre-Hamilton who has F1 won races in three separate decades? Trawling through the records, I can't spot anyone who's done that, and very few who even had the opportunity (Schumacher is the only one that immediately comes to mind, and he didn't score any victories in the his Mercedes comeback period in the early 2010s, whilst Barrichello didn't score an F1 victory until 2000 and had no victories in 2010 or 2011). Ricardo Patrese raced in F1 from 1977-93 but only won races in the 1980s and 1990s, whilst Jarno Trulli raced from 1997-2011 but only ever won one race.

[Toth]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Hülkenberg tomorrow.

Ironically I stumbled incidentally across today's Formula E race afterwards. I had paid a lot of attention towards Formula E during lockdown, but it completely surprised me that they stay for two weeks at Berlin doing a whole bunch of races on the track including reverse races, like today. And I must have luckily stumbled across the best race of the season or something, it was extremely fun to watch as the entire field fought tooth and nail during the entirety of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IvA9_2kdVM

 

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Bit homework for people: can anyone think of a driver pre-Hamilton who has F1 won races in three separate decades? Trawling through the records, I can't spot anyone who's done that, and very few who even had the opportunity (Schumacher is the only one that immediately comes to mind, and he didn't score any victories in the his Mercedes comeback period in the early 2010s, whilst Barrichello didn't score an F1 victory until 2000 and had no victories in 2010 or 2011). Ricardo Patrese raced in F1 from 1977-93 but only won races in the 1980s and 1990s, whilst Jarno Trulli raced from 1997-2011 but only ever won one race.

I wondered about Nelson Piquet but apparently he won his first races in the 1980 season (and last in 1991).

While they would technically have a chance I'm not sure I see much prospect of Vettel or Raikkonen managing to equal Hamilton's feat this year.

[polishgenius]

It is actually mad how bad the Mercs are at protecting their tyres in the heat.

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

It is actually mad how bad the Mercs are at protecting their tyres in the heat.

It's nice to see that there's something they're not actually perfect at.

Red Bull did seem to out-think them this weekend although maybe Verstappen would still have won anyway if he had done the same strategy as the Mercs. Good drive from Le Clerc as well to get fourth, probably about the best a Ferrari could have hoped for. Hulkenberg managed to get to both the start line and finish line this time and seemed to be driving well although I'm not sure I understand the strategy behind the late pitstop that dropped him behind Stroll. Vettel again seemed to be there just to make up the numbers.

The strategists will probably now be pouring over the forecast for Barcelona next week to see how hot it will be.

[Toth]

A bit sad about Hülkenberg's third stop. A little weird nobody paid any attention whatsoever to Albon fightin his way up, he did a pretty fine job this time. Vettel... guh... I've got a feeling Ferrari will try to install a private comm line in the car so that the audience can't listen in to them and Vettel arguing during the race. So Vettel messed up the first corner and spun out, but managed to actually fight his way back up fairly good, only to be screwed over by the team strategy. The race leaders showed quite well that the idea had to be to take the hard tyres and drive them as long as humanly possible, something Vettel seemed to expect to do as well and Leclerc certainly did, which makes it doubly odd that they forced him in like this when Vettel says he could have easily gone 10 more laps. Of course from then on he again basically just rage quit the race mentally, which seems to be the only thing he's doing right now.

5 minutes ago, williamjm said:

Hulkenberg managed to get to both the start line and finish line this time and seemed to be driving well although I'm not sure I understand the strategy behind the late pitstop that dropped him behind Stroll.

Hülkenberg said he had absurd vibrations coming from one of the rear tyres and feared it was about to blow. A shame, really...

[williamjm]

2 minutes ago, Toth said:

Hülkenberg said he had absurd vibrations coming from one of the rear tyres and feared it was about to blow. A shame, really...

I was wondering if it might be something like that. It is unfortunate although I guess he probably only lost one place because of it since Albon seemed to be flying at the end and might well have overtaken him anyway.

[polishgenius]

17 minutes ago, Toth said:

So Vettel messed up the first corner and spun out, but managed to actually fight his way back up fairly good, only to be screwed over by the team strategy.

 

The Sky commentary did point out, that Ferrari pitstop might have worked out better if the car in front (Stroll? Not sure now) hadn't got held up an extra five seconds or whatever it was in the pits and ended up right in front of Vettel.

But yeah not an ideal race for that half of the garage.

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

The Sky commentary did point out, that Ferrari pitstop might have worked out better if the car in front (Stroll? Not sure now) hadn't got held up an extra five seconds or whatever it was in the pits and ended up right in front of Vettel.

But yeah not an ideal race for that half of the garage.

I think it was Carlos Sainz who had the bad pitstop if I remember correctly.

[Werthead]

Interesting stuff. We've seen before than Mercedes are not great with tyre wear and if Pirelli have boosted the pressure for the rest of the season and the Merc doesn't like it, that could bring Red Bull more into play.

Vettel was crap, and his highly unprofessional radio message will have not gone down well. He'd do well to remember Ferrari dropped Alain Prost in 1991 mid-season for less, and Ferrari will be happy to call up Wehrlein or, on this performance, Hulkenberg for half a season.

Good recovery drive from Albon. Lots of criticism of him, but he's performing much better than Gasly was at the same time last year. He needs to work on qualifying but his race pace and drives are pretty good and he has good overtaking skills. It'd be hugely premature to get rid of him at this juncture I think.

[red snow]

On 8/8/2020 at 11:54 PM, williamjm said:

I wondered about Nelson Piquet but apparently he won his first races in the 1980 season (and last in 1991).

While they would technically have a chance I'm not sure I see much prospect of Vettel or Raikkonen managing to equal Hamilton's feat this year.

I guess le clerc has a decent chance of getting wins in three decades. Alonso might if he gets a win next year. Verstappen also has a chance. But we have 10 years to wait for two of those to pass and a year for the other. I can't think of anyone who has done it beyond Hamilton though.

The race seems to suggest that what Pirelli need are tyres that are good but don't last long long, to the point where it's a huge gamble and loss in laptime to attempt one-stoppers. This was probably the closest to a race we've seen this season and it was definitely an improvement over last week. Here's hoping for warmer weather and fast tracks to keep mercedes off balance. Although I think they were beat mainly on tactics and not car performance (although Verstappen performed excellently).

Leclerc is really impressing me this season with him arguably adding speed to a car that shouldn't be ending up where it does every race.

Shame for Hulkenberg but there is a chance he might race again next week.

[Werthead]

7 hours ago, red snow said:

I guess le clerc has a decent chance of getting wins in three decades. Alonso might if he gets a win next year. Verstappen also has a chance. But we have 10 years to wait for two of those to pass and a year for the other. I can't think of anyone who has done it beyond Hamilton though.

Verstappen and Leclerc have a shot at four:

For Verstappen, it was first race win in 2016 at the age of 18, and he's just has his ninth in 2020 at the age of 22. So he could win a race in 2030 at 32 and 2040 at the age of 42 to achieve that. No chance now of winning world championships in four.

Leclerc is just one month younger than Verstappen and won his first race last year, so the same applies. 42 is on the old side for an F1 driver but not unprecedented (Schumacher retired past that age, Alonso and Kimi aren't far off).

[red snow]

On 8/10/2020 at 4:05 PM, Werthead said:

Verstappen and Leclerc have a shot at four:

For Verstappen, it was first race win in 2016 at the age of 18, and he's just has his ninth in 2020 at the age of 22. So he could win a race in 2030 at 32 and 2040 at the age of 42 to achieve that. No chance now of winning world championships in four.

Leclerc is just one month younger than Verstappen and won his first race last year, so the same applies. 42 is on the old side for an F1 driver but not unprecedented (Schumacher retired past that age, Alonso and Kimi aren't far off).

I could see the pair of them lasting that long especially if they start getting a sniff at world championships and see Hamiltion's may as well call it 8 world championships. Max and leclerc might not think it yet but I think these seasons without a chance of winning will make them all the stronger down the line - a bit like like how Hamilton had several tough seasons after his initial championship.

With the tyre weakness do you think all the non mercedes teams and the FIA will push for softer compound tyres just to make the championship a bit more interesting. It sounds like in the double track races they will as the FIA has sole say.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

I could see the pair of them lasting that long especially if they start getting a sniff at world championships and see Hamiltion's may as well call it 8 world championships. Max and leclerc might not think it yet but I think these seasons without a chance of winning will make them all the stronger down the line - a bit like like how Hamilton had several tough seasons after his initial championship.

With the tyre weakness do you think all the non mercedes teams and the FIA will push for softer compound tyres just to make the championship a bit more interesting. It sounds like in the double track races they will as the FIA has sole say.

It depends on the temperatures and the conditions of each circuit. They might be able to repeat the conditions of this weekend at Monza, Spa and maybe Barcelona, but it's a tall order.

Also, Mercedes are quite right when they point out that it's up to their rivals to take the fight to them on track and beat them fair and square, rather than artificially trying to engineer Mercedes' downfall. Shades of when a team wins the World Cup by getting the easiest group imaginable so their really dangerous rivals all take each other out and the last men standing are knackered from hardcore, high-pressure games when they finally face them in the final. Yeah, you've won, but you're not going to get any respect for it. Shades of Rosberg in 2016, he won because Lewis had his worst year for reliability that year rather than in pure racecraft in skill.