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Formula One 2020


Werthead

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Rosberg, the Greece (euro football) of racing champions. 

I noticed there's a lot of speculation on whether Ferrari should drop vettel for the rest of the season. Seems harsh but red bull would have at this stage. I think if he has signed with alfa Romeo it may be a good thing for him and Ferrari to sit the rest of the season out. Something has clearly gone wrong there beyond just car performance. I think there's been a complete breakdown in communication and drive.

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11 hours ago, red snow said:

Rosberg, the Greece (euro football) of racing champions. 

I noticed there's a lot of speculation on whether Ferrari should drop vettel for the rest of the season. Seems harsh but red bull would have at this stage. I think if he has signed with alfa Romeo it may be a good thing for him and Ferrari to sit the rest of the season out. Something has clearly gone wrong there beyond just car performance. I think there's been a complete breakdown in communication and drive.

Racing Point. Vettel wouldn't consider going to Alfa under any circumstances.

If Perez is still out, Vettel could go to Racing Point now and Ferrari could call up Hulkenberg (they probably couldn't call up Sainz early without spending a lot of money) for the rest of the season. Then when Perez is back, Vettel can take an extended break or RP can pay Perez off.

I agree at the moment that it seems unlikely that Ferrari and Vettel can continue for another 10-12 races with this level of pure dissatisfaction going on. That said, Ferrari said this morning they found some damage on Vettel's car that had passed scrutiny, so they're going to completely replace the entire chassis. Could be a move to help Vettel save face, but it'll only work if he comes back this weekend and has a much better result.

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11 hours ago, red snow said:

Rosberg, the Greece (euro football) of racing champions.

 

 

Greece beat Portugal, Spain, France, a then-very-good Czech Republic team and Portugal again to win that cup, hardly fair. It was hardly South Korea in their home world cup, who definitely got the rub of the green in their run to the semi.

I gotta say I can't think of the last a team's won a WC and not been respected for it, but going into that would probably derail the topic for the sake of a point that's perfectly clear even if the analogy isn't true...

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3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

Greece beat Portugal, Spain, France, a then-very-good Czech Republic team and Portugal again to win that cup, hardly fair. It was hardly South Korea in their home world cup, who definitely got the rub of the green in their run to the semi.

I gotta say I can't think of the last a team's won a WC and not been respected for it, but going into that would probably derail the topic for the sake of a point that's perfectly clear even if the analogy isn't true...

Grinding a "better opponent" down by merit of not crashing/conceding goals and capitalising on opponent errors/bad luck. Also not to repeated with the next opportunity. 

I don't see how beating Hamilton isn't comparable to the teams Greece beat. It still doesn't make for an exciting driver/team. But there are plenty of football teams who are dull to watch but successful. So i stick with the analogy.

I still respect them winning but it was a bizarre championship in which it could happen. As was rosberg needing all other teams to be way off the pace and Hamilton being off his game and apparently cursed.

Edit: but to be fair i can see how you thought i thought what you thought based on wert's original analogy.

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Racing Point. Vettel wouldn't consider going to Alfa under any circumstances.

If Perez is still out, Vettel could go to Racing Point now and Ferrari could call up Hulkenberg (they probably couldn't call up Sainz early without spending a lot of money) for the rest of the season. Then when Perez is back, Vettel can take an extended break or RP can pay Perez off.

I agree at the moment that it seems unlikely that Ferrari and Vettel can continue for another 10-12 races with this level of pure dissatisfaction going on. That said, Ferrari said this morning they found some damage on Vettel's car that had passed scrutiny, so they're going to completely replace the entire chassis. Could be a move to help Vettel save face, but it'll only work if he comes back this weekend and has a much better result.

Oops to many teams with double names starting with "a".

I guess the best option is still to give vettel a car he can drive and/or sort his head out but it does look like there are other options. I'd be shocked if sainz were allowed out as that'd cause major disruption in what's already a nessy season let alone having driver musical chairs.

Seems the racing point issue is still being hotly contested. I think the punishment is fair and the logic of it being impossible to make someone design different brake ducts when they already know how to make better ones. You can't really undo the knowledge. Beyond giving all the teams the same info so they can have it too.

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That was harsh but a good thing he's okay.

Bit of a dull race today out front, but the midfield was really cool. Seeing McLaren, Ferrari and Racing Point swapping positions in a really tight battle was entertaining. Racing Point do seem to be turning it up more in the races which is good to see. Verstappen also seems intent on making sure he gets 2nd in the championship.

This new rule about disabling high-power qualifying modes seems odd. That's not going to do much for Mercedes (they seem to be close to a second ahead of the pack and the high speed mode seems to only give them maybe half that) but it could potentially hurt Racing Point and Williams a lot more. It shouldn't also make much odds in the race. The other teams high-power modes don't seem as effective, but they can't use what they have there either, so overall it seems a bit pointless.

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11 hours ago, Werthead said:

That was harsh but a good thing he's okay.

Bit of a dull race today out front, but the midfield was really cool. Seeing McLaren, Ferrari and Racing Point swapping positions in a really tight battle was entertaining. Racing Point do seem to be turning it up more in the races which is good to see. Verstappen also seems intent on making sure he gets 2nd in the championship.

This new rule about disabling high-power qualifying modes seems odd. That's not going to do much for Mercedes (they seem to be close to a second ahead of the pack and the high speed mode seems to only give them maybe half that) but it could potentially hurt Racing Point and Williams a lot more. It shouldn't also make much odds in the race. The other teams high-power modes don't seem as effective, but they can't use what they have there either, so overall it seems a bit pointless.

I sometimes thing they should do with power modes all together beyond a safety car and idle mode.

Haven't seen the race as on holiday but will just do highlights. It's not sounding inspiring.

Starting to think the worst thing for 2021 season is bottas remaining with mercedes. It means our only hope for a championship is some more honda power for verstappen and a leap from McLaren with merc engine. It'd be nice if alonso could be in mix. But in reality Hamilton only has a championship to lose as soon as he signs with mercedes again.

 

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Hamilton's stats are becoming mind-boggling.

He has 20 more pole positions than any other driver in history. He has 1 more podium finish than any other driver in history. He is the first driver to win races in 3 different decades. He is only 3 away from matching and 4 from having more race wins than any other driver in history. He will, most likely, this year equal Schumacher for the most world championships and will probably beat him next year. If not this year (probably not this year, it's a really tall order), then by the end of next year he will probably become the first driver with more than 100 poles and more than race 100 victories.

There's a few things he hasn't achieved which look a bit more distant: he's 28 behind Schumacher on the number of fastest laps set in a race, which is interesting (indicating that Hamilton's style isn't purely reliant on speed, as he backs off in a lot of races and other drivers can nab the FL whilst going flat-out). That seems to have changed since the FL extra point came in and he's now more likely to go for the FL, so that record may fall as well, but it will take a lot longer. He also doesn't have the record for the fastest F1 lap ever, which was set by Kimi last year in Monza. Hamilton could probably beat that if he went for it.

48 minutes ago, red snow said:

Starting to think the worst thing for 2021 season is bottas remaining with mercedes. It means our only hope for a championship is some more honda power for verstappen and a leap from McLaren with merc engine. It'd be nice if alonso could be in mix. But in reality Hamilton only has a championship to lose as soon as he signs with mercedes again.

The race was quite exciting in the midfield but out front it was a bit of a snore fest. Some good radio messages from Verstappen though.

Bottas is a hard one. He's a pretty good driver and he's shading Hamilton much more closely in qualifying, much more consistently than he has done before (Hamilton's noted he needs to go for it so much more now because if he falters for a second, Bottas seizes the pole almost automatically), but his race pace is still far too variable. He's also not scrappy enough. There's not much he could have done this week, but in several previous races he basically gifted Verstappen with second by not fighting hard for it, and has really refused to get mixed up with Hamilton as well as Rosberg used to.

He's doing enough to ensure Merc win the constructors' and to not cause trouble in the team, but it isn't the most dynamic pairing that could be imagined. I understand Merc's desire for a quiet life though, after several years of Rosberg and Hamilton causing them headaches.

Similar problem at Red Bull, though it's reversed there. Albon has great race pace, is good at overtaking and really scrappy in a dogfight, but his qualifying performance is pretty lamentable. He's done way better than Gasly to be fair (and he'd have a podium and maybe even a win if it wasn't for being knocked out by Hamilton, twice), but as Gasly's woes recede into the past, Red Bull are probably going to be looking at their #2 driver and wondering why he's not coming in second when Verstappen is winning, or at least fourth if Verstappen is on the podium at all. Albon needs to unlock a bit more speed. I suspect his position is relatively safe for the rest of the year as long as he doesn't start going backwards, and Red Bull don't have an obvious replacement other than promoting Gasly, which they are wary of doing after last year (Kvyat I'm surprised is still there, and will likely be gone the second they have a young driver with enough superlicence points).

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43 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Hamilton's stats are becoming mind-boggling.

He has 20 more pole positions than any other driver in history. He has 1 more podium finish than any other driver in history. He is the first driver to win races in 3 different decades. He is only 3 away from matching and 4 from having more race wins than any other driver in history. He will, most likely, this year equal Schumacher for the most world championships and will probably beat him next year. If not this year (probably not this year, it's a really tall order), then by the end of next year he will probably become the first driver with more than 100 poles and more than race 100 victories.

There's a few things he hasn't achieved which look a bit more distant: he's 28 behind Schumacher on the number of fastest laps set in a race, which is interesting (indicating that Hamilton's style isn't purely reliant on speed, as he backs off in a lot of races and other drivers can nab the FL whilst going flat-out). That seems to have changed since the FL extra point came in and he's now more likely to go for the FL, so that record may fall as well, but it will take a lot longer. He also doesn't have the record for the fastest F1 lap ever, which was set by Kimi last year in Monza. Hamilton could probably beat that if he went for it.

The race was quite exciting in the midfield but out front it was a bit of a snore fest. Some good radio messages from Verstappen though.

Bottas is a hard one. He's a pretty good driver and he's shading Hamilton much more closely in qualifying, much more consistently than he has done before (Hamilton's noted he needs to go for it so much more now because if he falters for a second, Bottas seizes the pole almost automatically), but his race pace is still far too variable. He's also not scrappy enough. There's not much he could have done this week, but in several previous races he basically gifted Verstappen with second by not fighting hard for it, and has really refused to get mixed up with Hamilton as well as Rosberg used to.

He's doing enough to ensure Merc win the constructors' and to not cause trouble in the team, but it isn't the most dynamic pairing that could be imagined. I understand Merc's desire for a quiet life though, after several years of Rosberg and Hamilton causing them headaches.

Similar problem at Red Bull, though it's reversed there. Albon has great race pace, is good at overtaking and really scrappy in a dogfight, but his qualifying performance is pretty lamentable. He's done way better than Gasly to be fair (and he'd have a podium and maybe even a win if it wasn't for being knocked out by Hamilton, twice), but as Gasly's woes recede into the past, Red Bull are probably going to be looking at their #2 driver and wondering why he's not coming in second when Verstappen is winning, or at least fourth if Verstappen is on the podium at all. Albon needs to unlock a bit more speed. I suspect his position is relatively safe for the rest of the year as long as he doesn't start going backwards, and Red Bull don't have an obvious replacement other than promoting Gasly, which they are wary of doing after last year (Kvyat I'm surprised is still there, and will likely be gone the second they have a young driver with enough superlicence points).

Had to quote otherwise phone was insisting on posting an old post.

For a guy who claims not to be interested in breaking records he's sure broken a lot of them. The fastest lap sounds like one of those things he could throw a race away for but maybe he's just waiting for a non points result on that track to go for it.

Albon is a weird one in that he does some great overtakes but almost always because he's had a poor qualifying or start. I'm sure red bull would be more impressed if said overtakes were with top 5 drivers in a race.

Some of the rumours were that Mercedes higher ups (probably marketing who don't know anything about racing) wanted a driver who could compete with Hamilton instead of bottas (eg vettel (questionable at moment) ricciardo or Alonso) saying the buzz would be better publicity as they've seen the perception is mercedes are a dull/safe option. Apparently woolf nixed that idea demanding they let him run the racing side of things.

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It's funny though- obviously some of it comes from expanded seasons anyway but although Hamilton is indeed a truly great driver I wouldn't even think about putting him on the same level as Schumi. That might be nostalgia talking but for all his achievements I can't think of too many instances of sheer mindblowing driving skill that Schumacher displayed in moments like 'do nineteen qualifying laps to get the undercut please' in Hungary or coming second in a car with one gear Barca 94 or of course Spain 96. 

 

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I found the race in its entirety to be dull. Though it clearly was the race of hostile race engineers since the only spots of entertainment were Verstappen's heated yelling at his one, Albon getting sacrificed to test out tyres for Verstappen and then of course Vettel's ongoing messy divorce with Ferrari. What the fuck is going on in this soap opera? So apparently according to the commentators Vettel refused 20 times to reply to calls during training and then during the race the race engineer, apparently as a way to get back at him, refused to reply when Vettel asked how their tyre strategy was, then 10 laps later asking Vettel how his tyres are, much to his vocal annoyance. Basically Vettel only got the 7th place by saying "Fuck it, we've got nothing to loose, I drive till the tyres explode". I shouldn't be surprised anymore about just how hostile their exchanges are, but damn, it still takes me aback each race. I've read jokes elsewhere that in the next race Vettel will be forced to get out and change his tyres himself.

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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

It's funny though- obviously some of it comes from expanded seasons anyway but although Hamilton is indeed a truly great driver I wouldn't even think about putting him on the same level as Schumi. That might be nostalgia talking but for all his achievements I can't think of too many instances of sheer mindblowing driving skill that Schumacher displayed in moments like 'do nineteen qualifying laps to get the undercut please' in Hungary or coming second in a car with one gear Barca 94 or of course Spain 96. 

Hamilton in the rain in Silverstone in 2008 is the clear outstanding drive there, achieving the largest winning margin in modern F1 history (the old multi-minute records being set in very differen time periods). Hockenheim 2018, rising from 14th to the lead through a masterful wet drive. 2013 Hungary, his first win for Mercedes when pretty much everyone else's tyres were going haywire and he managed to ease them to the win. 2014 Bahrain, where he ran wheel-to-wheel with Rosberg for almost the entire race before finally winning. And of course, crossing the line and winning on three wheels in Silverstone this year, easily equalling Schumacher's gear problem (since at any second Hamilton could have spun off and got nothing, or been injured).

Hamilton is also 1 season behind Schumacher's record of winning at least one race every season for fifteen consecutive seasons, and likely to exceed that as well (assuming, as is likely, he re-signs for 3 seasons this year, taking him to 2023).

I quite easily see Hamilton being on a par with Schumacher, if not superior (certainly in the rain). They raced in slightly different eras, but the primary criticism you can level at Hamilton is that he won in a very dominant car rather than from behind the curve (apart from 2008), but then the Ferrari was monstrously dominant for almost all of Schumacher's time as well (and neither Rosberg nor Bottas has been able to extract as much from the Merc as Hamilton has). You can also argue that Schumacher had a more compliant team-mate for much more of his time than Hamilton, who had to fight tooth and claw against Alonso, Button and Rosberg, sometimes being bested by them. Schumacher also dented his legacy with his comeback period, in which he looked never better than ordinary (and getting bested by Rosberg, who also proved that the Mercedes had winning pace in it).

Schumacher is a legend of the sport, certainly, but Hamilton has shown himself to easily be his equal and his better under certain circumstances, and certainly nowhere near as volatile.

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7 hours ago, Werthead said:

Hamilton's stats are becoming mind-boggling.

He has 20 more pole positions than any other driver in history. He has 1 more podium finish than any other driver in history. He is the first driver to win races in 3 different decades. He is only 3 away from matching and 4 from having more race wins than any other driver in history. He will, most likely, this year equal Schumacher for the most world championships and will probably beat him next year. If not this year (probably not this year, it's a really tall order), then by the end of next year he will probably become the first driver with more than 100 poles and more than race 100 victories.

There's a few things he hasn't achieved which look a bit more distant: he's 28 behind Schumacher on the number of fastest laps set in a race, which is interesting (indicating that Hamilton's style isn't purely reliant on speed, as he backs off in a lot of races and other drivers can nab the FL whilst going flat-out). That seems to have changed since the FL extra point came in and he's now more likely to go for the FL, so that record may fall as well, but it will take a lot longer. He also doesn't have the record for the fastest F1 lap ever, which was set by Kimi last year in Monza. Hamilton could probably beat that if he went for it.

Win percentage is probably the unobtainable one, I'm not sure he could ever match Fangio on that (although he's still doing better than every driver from recent decades).

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

easily equalling Schumacher's gear problem (since at any second Hamilton could have spun off and got nothing, or been injured).

Driving on three wheels is a more difficult and dangerous task than driving on one gear if you just look at like a moment of a thing you have to do, but nursing a three wheeled car home over one lap is not easily equal, or anywhere even close to, the achievement of skill that competitively racing and coming second in a car stuck with one gear for 43 laps.

I rate Schumacher at Barcelona better than Hamilton in 2008 because he was driving away from Alesi and Villeneuve in a worse car than they had rather than from Nick Heidfeld in a better one, as well as the conditions being so bad you probably wouldn't see them being raced nowadays, but you could argue that the changing conditions of 2008 made it a trickier task than the unrelenting wetness of 1996. I wouldn't rate Hamilton as 'certainly' better in the rain either but I suppose it's close enough to call either way.

I also think Schumacher was a better defensive driver and more competitive in those times when the both of them were driving less superior machines than the bulk of their careers but it would be hard to prove either of those.

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Final race calendar confirmed (COVID permitting), for 17 races:

30 August: Belgium (Spa)

6 September: Italy (Monza)

13 September: Italy (Mugello)

27 September: Russia (Sochi)

11 October: Germany (Nurburgring)

25 October: Portugal (Portimao)

1 November: Italy (Imola)

15 November: Turkey (Istanbul)

29 November: Bahrain

6 December: Bahrain

13 December: Abu Dhabi

Given that snow on the Nurburgring is not unknown in early October, that should be interesting.

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The Globo network, that shows F1 races in Brazil since 1972, announced they won't renew their contract to next year due to the prices asked by Formula One Management being considered excessive after the pandemic. And considering they are by far the biggest network in the country (they also have the rights to cable and pass it in their sports channel), it's clear there won't be any races on TV anywhere in Brazil either for the first time since 1969 (1970 being the year Emerson Fittipaldi debuted). 

Add that to the fact there was already a real possibility of no Brazilian GP in 2021 even if the pandemic ends,  and without any TV it's extremely unlike most, if any local sponsors will be interested.  And considering there doesn't seem to be any Brazilian pilot with a real possibility of making the grid in the next year or two, let alone being a top competitor, the future for Brazilian automobilism, which has 8 titles (and Massa nearly added to that as recently as 2008) looks very, very bleak.

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