Why is Randyl Tarly considered such a great general?

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Its a show of force,

True, but that does not make it any less idiotic. He should have sent ravens to the Vale first, even to the Twins before he turned up on their doorstep.

Maybe even ravens to the other Lords explaining his outrage. Imagine sending word to Storm's End, Dragonstone or Highgarden and then being clued into their positions on the Crown?

Robb marching South may have even been what made Joffrey snap and execute Ned.

2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

 

Robb raising an army helps pressure the Iron throne into negotiating Neds release.

We both know that is not true, though. It may have done the opposite.

2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

It might have seemed like a stupid decision. 

It was. He marched too quickly, too rashly which left the North itself vulnerable and limited his options once he was in the South.

2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

But it later on proved to be a good decision. It was good plan in which he captured Jamie, a potential bargaining tool in which he can make peace and exchange his father.

Ned was likely already executed by the time Jaime was captured. We see throughout the time that Robb had Jaime it meant little in terms of finding peace.

And it was a pretty large gamble. Capturing Jaime was both great, but also relied heavily on luck.

[Trigger Warning]

7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Scipio biggest moment is the Battle of Ilipa and the siege of Cartagena in 209 BC. He wasn't a great general because he beat Hannibal, he was choosen to lead the army against Hannibal because he already had a reputation as a great commander, beating Hannibal was just the icing in the cake.

Total nitpick but I think it's one of the most interesting parts of the war, Scipio wasn't chosen at all for the African campaign as the Senate wouldn't support an invasion in the first place so he just began building an army of his own out of the veterans of Roman defeats stationed in Sicily and volunteers that loved him, when the senate sent a commission to investigate and found him at the head of a veteran army they panicked a bit and just barely gave him permission to cross to Africa with no real support so he did it anyway, the man was an absolute baller. 

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Hallyne fled so quickly that he almost bowled over Ser Jacelyn—no, Lord Jacelyn, he must remember that. Ironhand was mercifully direct, as ever. He'd returned from Rosby to deliver a fresh levy of spearmen recruited from Lord Gyles's estates and resume his command of the City Watch.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Donnel was wounded in the battle and yielded to Ser Elwood Harte. He was ransomed afterward and pledged his fealty to King Joffrey, as did many other captives."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Falyse had arrived yesterday from Castle Stokeworth with a small troop of soldiers. She was trying to coax her sister onto the bridge, but Lollys clung to her maid, sobbing, "I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to."

So you claimed that all the Crownland Houses refused to help. That was your claim, a claim that you have not bothered to provide evidence for. Do you admit you were mistaken or are you simply going to move the goalposts?

I'd add that in AFfC we also learn that the Crackclaw Point folk sent their men to fight in the war.

Robb was a walking corpse the moment he put on that crown. If he had made smarter decision he may have been able to postpone the inevitable for months or even years but he would have been forced to bend the knee and renounce his kingship eventually.

 

[The Young Maester]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

True, but that does not make it any less idiotic. He should have sent ravens to the Vale first, even to the Twins before he turned up on their doorstep.

Maybe even ravens to the other Lords explaining his outrage. Imagine sending word to Storm's End, Dragonstone or Highgarden and then being clued into their positions on the Crown?

Ravens to the vale and twins wouldnt have done much, but true maybe he shouldve communicated with them first about his purpose. Same for the other kingdoms.

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb marching South may have even been what made Joffrey snap and execute Ned.

I doubt it. Its Joffrey being Joffrey. Cersei couldnt keep her leash on him. He executes Ned for his own cruelty and thirst for blood. Ned was his first kill (that he directly ordered). It also benefitted Petyr so it is possible that he influenced Joffreys mind and no doubt also gave slynt the green light.

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Quote

 

We both know that is not true, though. It may have done the opposite.

Well it obviously seemed that he wanted to march on kings landing. But at the same time raising an army does put allot of pressure on the Iron throne. Robbs March could have caused a chain of events that leads to a major rebellion against Cersei and Joffrey. Rebellions are dangerous, therefore they would try to calm the situation by negotiating peace. Whether this was robbs purpose, I don’t know.

The laughing storm did the same thing. When his daughters betrothal to the crown prince was broken, he rebelled and named himself storm king. But Aegon quickly negotiated a deal for peace with the lord of storms end. Robert wouldnt have Targaryens blood if it wasnt for his grandsires reckless actions. 
 

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Quote

It was. He marched too quickly, too rashly which left the North itself vulnerable and limited his options once he was in the South.

I agree that he marched too quickly. He shouldve taken his time and raised a proper army. But at the same time he needed to march south as quickly as possible in order to release his father.

He also left no sort of authority in the North. He left a Maester and two children in charge. He shouldve sent Catelyn to winterfell because Rodrik cassel dosent hold the same authority Catelyn would.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ned was likely already executed by the time Jaime was captured. We see throughout the time that Robb had Jaime it meant little in terms of finding peace.

 And it was a pretty large gamble. Capturing Jaime was both great, but also relied heavily on luck.

That was the only setback of the campaign. Obviously no one thought Joffrey would be stupid enough to execute a great lord, especially when that lords kingdom is marching an army south. 

Robbs plan was a slight gamble of course. But its success was not based on luck. It was based on the brilliant tactics they implemented. The blackfish outriders provided a lot of cover for robbs cavalry, and they successfully lured Jamie into a trap. They knew Jamie would recklessly try to run down bryndens raiding party. It was all planned out and it was a success because of the blackfishs knowledge of the land. If anything Tywins campaign had more luck than the others. Things such as sack of winterfell and Renly dying were caused by outside forces in which he had no power over. 

[Bernie Mac]

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Ravens to the vale and twins wouldnt have done much, but true maybe he shouldve communicated with them first about his purpose. Same for the other kingdoms.

Right, Information is always better than ignorance. Going blindly into a war is foolish, limits Robb's options.

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I doubt it.

Why?

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

 

Its Joffrey being Joffrey.

That is exactly my point. When Robb beat Joffrey with wooden swords Joffrey's response was not to back down but ask the fight to be used with real steel.

If Robb is convinced that his father is innocent and it is a case of Joffrey taking the arrest of his uncle a step further then he should have realized that Joffrey, instead of backing down, from Robb's threat would instead ramp it up.

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

 

Cersei couldnt keep her leash on him. He executes Ned for his own cruelty and thirst for blood.

He's not a POV character. It may have been for those reasons, it may have been because he felt threatened, it may have been to prove a point to other Lords who were going to go to war with him, it could have been that someone, such as Littlefinger or Varys, convinced him to kill Ned. It could have been one of those, a mixture of some or even all of those, or none of those, we really don't know.

But Joffrey being cruel and Joffrey feeling threatened are not mutually exclusive positions.

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

 

Ned was his first kill (that he directly ordered). It also benefitted Petyr so it is possible that he influenced Joffreys mind and no doubt also gave slynt the green light.

More than possible.

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Well it obviously seemed that he wanted to march on kings landing. But at the same time raising an army does put allot of pressure on the Iron throne. Robbs March could have caused a chain of events that leads to a major rebellion against Cersei and Joffrey. Rebellions are dangerous, therefore they would try to calm the situation by negotiating peace. Whether this was robbs purpose, I don’t know.

It seems unlikely that it was. Robb is still out of his depth as a political thinker, nothing suggest that 15 year old Robb and Theon were thinking like that when the left Winterfell.

Theon considered himself the heir of the Ironborn, whose people would do his bidding (it is not until he returns home does he realize how wrong he was) while Robb expects the Vale and the Riverlands to fully support him (50% right on that one). This was two young men wanting to relive the adventures of Ned and Robert against a little brat they both did not respect.

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

The laughing storm did the same thing. When his daughters betrothal to the crown prince was broken, he rebelled and named himself storm king. But Aegon quickly negotiated a deal for peace with the lord of storms end. Robert wouldnt have Targaryens blood if it wasnt for his grandsires reckless actions. 

I'm not sure the point here? I think the Laughing Storm was also an idiot who was lucky to be facing a King who he knew and was friends with since Egg was a child.

The majority of rulers of Westeros would not have resolved that situation like Aegon V did.

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I agree that he marched too quickly. He shouldve taken his time and raised a proper army. But at the same time he needed to march south as quickly as possible in order to release his father.

Well, no. He did not. He marched quickly and his father died, possibly as a result.

Ned was rotting in the dungeons when Robb was doing nothing (perhaps he would have died from his infection, but that is another story). It is only when Robb raises his banners and marches South does Ned's situation be resolved.

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

That was the only setback of the campaign. Obviously no one thought Joffrey would be stupid enough to execute a great lord, especially when that lords kingdom is marching an army south. 

Tywin did not, Robb obviously did not. I'm not sure no one thought that. Renly basically warns Ned that Cersei would destroy the two of them if she gained power.

Some may have seen it as a possibility.

53 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

 

Robbs plan was a slight gamble of course. But its success was not based on luck.

It kind of was.

• No one noticing his army coming South was luck.
• Jaime, himself, coming to face him was luck
• No one sending word to the sleeping foot was luck

Capturing Jaime was luck.

 

[Trigger Warning]

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Robbs plan was a slight gamble of course. But its success was not based on luck. 

Splitting your army and gambling on whether or not a single scout sees you do it and that if they do you can kill them before they escape does have a pretty huge luck factor no matter how you slice it. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 2/29/2020 at 3:45 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean the guy's only impressive act was Ashford. Compare this to Robb, Stannis, Robert or Tywin, who each have several very impressive victories under their belt. So why does everybody say that Randyl Tarly is such a great general?

How effective General Tarly was is not as easy to judge as say a professional basketball player.  The player will have stats that could be used to objectively rate their effectiveness at their function.  A general's is not that easy.  Battles do not happen often and what statistics would you collect to evaluate the general?  People judged him good at his job.  These people have battle experience and know something about the topic.  That is good enough for me.  I am willing to accept the opinion, Tarly is at the least competent.  The list of effective commanders within our time line are as follows:  Robb Stark, Daenerys Targaryen, Stannis Baratheon, Jon Snow, Barristan Selmy, and the men who planned the red wedding.  

1. Robb Stark, for obvious reasons.  He beat Jamie Lannister.  I don't consider Jamie to be smart though.
2. Daenerys Targaryen.  The way she took The Unsullied from their masters was nothing short of magnificent.  This is my favorite move of hers.
3. Stannis Baratheon.  Sure, he got his butt kicked badly.  And maybe he doesn't belong here, but his mop up of the wildlings and his victory over the ironborn in the past have to count.
4. Jon Snow.  His defense of the gate at the wall.
5. Barristan Selmy, for obvious reasons.  His capable defense of Meereen during the most trying of times is to me the proof of this leadership.
6. Red Wedding plotters.  Win the battle while cutting the risk to your own side.  

[The Young Maester]

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why?

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's not a POV character. It may have been for those reasons, it may have been because he felt threatened, it may have been to prove a point to other Lords who were going to go to war with him, it could have been that someone, such as Littlefinger or Varys, convinced him to kill Ned. It could have been one of those, a mixture of some or even all of those, or none of those, we really don't know.

I believe Joffreys thirst for blood is what made him execute Ned. Or he just wanted Ned dead because he tried to take the throne from him. I dont think Robb marching south is what prompted Joffrey to kill Ned. I might be wrong, because as you said we dont have a POV character from him. But from what we have seen from Joffrey to me it is more likely he killed Ned for his own reasons and not because of Robb.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It seems unlikely that it was. Robb is still out of his depth as a political thinker, nothing suggest that 15 year old Robb and Theon were thinking like that when the left Winterfell.

Theon considered himself the heir of the Ironborn, whose people would do his bidding (it is not until he returns home does he realize how wrong he was) while Robb expects the Vale and the Riverlands to fully support him (50% right on that one). This was two young men wanting to relive the adventures of Ned and Robert against a little brat they both did not respect.

Oh yeah I agree. I also doubt he wouldve thought of this. But what I mean is what it helps him achieve. By raising an army he raises eyebrows in kings landing. 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well, no. He did not. He marched quickly and his father died, possibly as a result.

Ned was rotting in the dungeons when Robb was doing nothing (perhaps he would have died from his infection, but that is another story). It is only when Robb raises his banners and marches South does Ned's situation be resolved.

His welfare for his father is what probably caused him to march so quickly. He wanted to get there as quick as possible in order to save his father. But by doing this he messed up his entire campaign for independence. But to be fair to him he didnt expect such a turn of events.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin did not, Robb obviously did not. I'm not sure no one thought that. Renly basically warns Ned that Cersei would destroy the two of them if she gained power.

 Some may have seen it as a possibility.

Probably some people thought he should executed or maybe some like the citizens of kings landing expected him to die. But when word comes that Robb raised an army I doubt the other lords thought Joffrey would kill him. Since Ned can be used as a tool to make the northerners submit.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It kind of was.

• No one noticing his army coming South was luck.
• Jaime, himself, coming to face him was luck
• No one sending word to the sleeping foot was luck

 Capturing Jaime was luck.

19 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Splitting your army and gambling on whether or not a single scout sees you do it and that if they do you can kill them before they escape does have a pretty huge luck factor no matter how you slice it. 

It is fair to say he did have some luck on his little campaign. But the entire operation wasnt fully based on luck. As I said excellent use of outriders and good knowledge of the land (which the enemy didnt have since it is unknown territory to them) is also a factor to put in place. And having one of the best commanders of the time by your side is also a reason for its success. 
I think we can say that both excellent use of tactics and luck is what helped them succeed.

Jamie was going to be captured whether he decided to face Robb or not. His entire army was surrounded. The whole plan was with the purpose to prevent survivors and word form getting back to the camps.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not sure the point here? I think the Laughing Storm was also an idiot who was lucky to be facing a King who he knew and was friends with since Egg was a child.

The majority of rulers of Westeros would not have resolved that situation like Aegon V did.

Probably. But im using this as an example of what Robb could have achieved. Ned being a prisoner means Cersei could have resolved to the similar diplomacy Aegon V used. 

[dsjj251]

On 2/29/2020 at 3:35 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

His strategy was to fight a war of attrition to compel the South to accept the independence of the North and Riverlands. Kill enough Lannister’s and they’ll cave in to Northern demands.

There are several problems with this:

- The North has far less soldiers than the South. This is why the North is empty of soldiers when the Ironborn attack. Northern losses matter, Tywins do not. 

 

Thats actually  the author attempting to write a more compelling story , The North and the Riverlands combined should have more soldiers than the Westerlands by a decent chunk at that. 

 

Quote

 

Basically Rob is fighting an unwinnable war of his own volition. This is because he’s overreaching after his early success against smaller Lannister armies. The Riverlands was always a lost cause. He had arguably already conceded this when he fled back North to try and salvage the disaster there.

 

This ,again, is the author trying to write a more compelling story. Robb should have better numbers and a geographical advantage. 

 

Jaime Lannisters forces are trapped between Riverrun, The Tumblestone, and the Red Fork, 

As for Tywin, he has Harrenhal, but Robb now controls the bulk of the Riverlands and his supply lines from the West. Any reinforcements are either going to be funneled into the same problem as Jaime's troops or have to go South and then to the north, where Renly would then be a problem. Not to mention Roose Bolton should have the support of the eastern Riverlands.

Tywin is surrounded by 3 armies and gets away because of plot armor.