Viserys' Gift

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

A conversation @Hugorfonics & I were having in another thread spawned some questions in my mind: 

1. What exactly did Drogo promise to gift Viserys in return for Dany's hand in marriage?

2. If an army was indeed promised, did the Khal intend on leading the army himself to Westeros? 

 

So, we know what Illyrio says is promised although even that is somewhat ambiguous. At times it's said an army was promised, at others a crown. Daenerys notes she always thought she would marry Viserys but now Viserys is scheming to marry her to a horselord. The first mention of any details on the deal though comes from Viserys:

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"We won't need his whole khalasar," Viserys said. His fingers toyed with the hilt of his borrowed blade, though Dany knew he had never used a sword in earnest. "Ten thousand, that would be enough, I could sweep the Seven Kingdoms with ten thousand Dothraki screamers..."

Viserys seems to think he will be gifted some Dothraki screamers. Whether a number was agreed upon or Viserys is just musing as to how many he would need, is unclear here, as is where he gets this information that he is to be gifted any Dothraki screamers but presumably from Illyrio as Viserys does not speak Dothraki, nor is there any indication that he has met Drogo up to this point. Something to note though is that Viserys does not think he will need the entire khalasar. 

Nor does he make it clear if he intends to lead these Dothraki screamers himself or if he believes Drogo will lead them for him, but he does make it clear he intends to be among them:

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"I shall kill the Usurper myself," he promised, who had never killed anyone, "as he killed my brother Rhaegar. And Lannister too, the Kingslayer, for what he did to my father." 

It seems to be unclear just how large his khalasar is also:

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"Drogo is so rich that even his slaves wear golden collars. A hundred thousand men ride in his khalasar, and his palace in Vaes Dothrak has two hundred rooms and doors of solid silver."

But later:

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Drogo had called his khalasar to attend him and they had come, forty thousand Dothraki warriors and uncounted numbers of women, children, and slaves.

It does seem the slave girl who gave the 100,000 number doesn't know exactly what she is talking about though, as Dany notes the first slave of the Dothraki she comes in contact with has an ordinary bronze collar, not gold. Also, 40,000 is referenced a few times through the text so that number is probably closer to the truth. 

Upon Dany & presumably, Viserys, first laying eyes on the Khal, Illyrio walks off to speak to Drogo alone:

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"I must go and make my submissions," Magister Illyrio said. "Wait here. I shall bring him to you." 

Viserys again references bringing Khal Drogos army to Westeros:

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"We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo's army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will." 

After Ser Jorah suggests marrying Dany to Drogo quickly as to avoid handing half of the wealth of Pentos over to sellswords & bravos Viserys says 
 

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"He can have her tomorrow, if he likes," her brother said. He glanced over at Dany, and she lowered her eyes. "So long as he pays the price." 

Illyrio waved a languid hand in the air, rings glittering on his fat fingers. "I have told you, all is settled. Trust me. The khal has promised you a crown, and you shall have it." 

 

It's very clear Viserys believes he is selling his sister to the Khal for an army; a crown. I do wonder though, is crown being used interchangeably with army because Drogo has promised to retrieve this crown for Viserys himself? Or because the army is the vehicle by which Viserys will retrieve his own crown? Or has the Khal promised nothing of the sort & Illyrio is lying? 

There is no clear timeline in which this crown or army is to be given either:

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"Yes, but when?"

"When the khal chooses," Illyrio said. "He will have the girl first, and after they are wed he must make his procession across the plains and present her to the dosh khaleen at Vaes Dothrak. After that, perhaps. If the omens favor war."

 

 

Saying perhaps, if the omens favor war does give some indication Drogo intends to lead his khalasar West to get Viseryss crown for him, if he was merely handing him part of his khalasar to lead himself what difference would the omens make? But Dany seems to indicate Viserys intended to lead the army himself:

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"He could not lead an army even if my lord husband gave him one," Dany said. "He has no coin and the only knight who follows him reviles him as less than a snake. The Dothraki make mock of his weakness. He will never take us home." 

 

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"I pray that my sun-and-stars will not keep him waiting too long," she told Ser Jorah when her brother was out of earshot. The knight looked after Viserys doubtfully. "Your brother should have bided his time in Pentos. There is no place for him in a khalasar. Illyrio tried to warn him." 

"He will go as soon as he has his ten thousand. My lord husband promised him a crown." 

Ser Jorah grunted. "Yes, Khaleesi, but... the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio told him, but your brother does not listen. The horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes... in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal." 

 

Jorah advises Viserys to be patient, he said the Dothraki are true to their word but do things in their own time. 

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"A lesser man may beg a favor from the khal, but must never presume to berate him." 

Viserys bristled. "Guard your tongue, Mormont, or I'll have it out. I am no lesser man, I am the rightful Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. The dragon does not beg." 

Ser Jorah lowered his eyes respectfully. Illyrio smiled enigmatically and tore a wing from the duck. 

 

Why is Illyrio smiling enigmatically? Is it because Viserys is such a fool or is there more to it than that? Perhaps he knows the Khal will never grant Viserys the gift he desires because no such deal was ever set up? He can see how impatient & arrogant Viserys is & likely knows Viserys will indeed grow restless & impatient & berate the khal - seeing as how that's how things turned out, could this have been Illyrios plan all along? 

I have to concede that if Illyrio merely wanted Viserys dead there were 100 other ways to do so that didn't involve elaborate marriage schemes but it has never sat well with me that we never have Drogo confirm he was willing to give Viserys anything & Illyrio often behaves as if he is hiding something. 

We know the rest; Viserys insists on going with the khalasar & staying with them until the debt is paid. Whining repeatedly of being given his army &/or his crown. As Daenerys grows more accustomed to her new roll as Khaleesi Viserys grows more insolent & ignorant. Having reached Vaes Dothrak & being insulted by Dany's attempt to make him more comfortable he goes to the market in search of a sellsword army:

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"Wine," Ser Jorah confirmed, "and he has some thought to recruit men for his army from the sellswords who guard the caravans." 

Dany inquires how he would hire such an army without coin & Jorah reveals Viserys tried to steal Danys draon eggs. 

Soon enough Viserys shows his face at the feast, brandishing steal where it is forbidden & succeeds in getting his coveted crown: 

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"Go to him," she commanded Ser Jorah. "Stop him. Bring him here. Tell him he can have the dragon's eggs if that is what he wants." The knight rose swiftly to his feet.

                        "Where is my sister?" Viserys shouted, his voice thick with wine. "I've come for her feast. How dare you presume to eat without me? No one eats before the king. Where is she? The whore can't hide from the dragon."

 

               

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 Ser Jorah went to him swiftly, whispered something in his ear, and took him by the arm, but Viserys wrenched free. "Keep your hands off me! No one touches the dragon without leave."

           

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    The sound of laughter made Viserys life his eyes. "Khal Drogo," he said thickly, his voice almost polite. "I'm here for the feast." He staggered away from Ser Jorah, making to join the three khals on the high bench. 

                Khal Drogo rose, spat out a dozen words in Dothraki, faster than Dany could understand, and pointed. "Khal Drogo says your place is not on the high bench," Ser Jorah translated for her brother. "Khal Drogo says your place is there."

 

               

      He finds Dany & points his blade at her stomach:

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"I want what I came for," he told her. "I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I'm taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him." The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing at the same time, this man who had once been her brother.

Dany relays the message, but it is noteworthy that she is afraid she cannot relay it correctly in the Dothraki tongue. Drogo replies, Viserys asks what he said. 

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"He says you shall have a splendid golden crown that men shall tremble to behold." 

So is it possible that Drogo never promised a crown or an army? I'm not certain but it does seem odd that Drogo never once mentions it or comments on it. None of the information in regards to this gift comes from Drogo that we are aware of. Is it possible that a gift was intended but not something as specific as an army? 

Let us not forget, directly after Viserys dies: 

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"It was prophesied that the stallion will ride to the ends of the earth," she said

                   "The earth ends at the black salt sea," Drogo answered at once. ... "No horse can cross the poison water." 

 

Does that not seem like an odd response from a man, who, just a few days or weeks previously had intended on either taking an army to Westeros to retrieve Viserys's crown for him or intended on giving a portion of his khalasar to be led across the poison waters by someone else? 

I feel safe in saying that Drogo did not intend on taking the army himself, for starters it's indicated several times that is isn't to be the entire khalasar going West. He could hardly lead a portion of his khalasar West & leave the rest behind & still hope to keep hold of them; they would disband. Also, he believes the earth ends at the black salt sea & they cannot cross the poison water. Dany has repeatedly told him otherwise but he stubbornly sticks to this belief. Had he intended on taking any portion of his khalasar West he would have already been convinced he can cross the poison water, no? I suppose it's possible that he did intend on giving Viserys a portion of his army as a gift & never gave a second thought to what he would do with them. Or maybe he knew what Viserys planned on doing with them & believes it's impossible but it is of no concern of his if Viserys cannot do what he intends to do with the army. 

 

[Hugorfonics]

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Come to think of it it's a little much to think Drogo agreed to do what no other Dothraki has ever done seems an awfully steep price to pay for a marriage to someone who isn't really bringing anything to the marriage. 

Quite steep indeed, not what one would call a fat Walda like dowry.

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"Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?"

"She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal," Illyrio told him, not for the first time. "Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo."

The blood of old Valyria means something, it adds to his regal atmosphere and his ambiance of supremacy on the Dothraki Sea.

He could have taken a Dothraki to wife, as is probably the general tradition, 

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"If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives. Give them places in the khalasar and let them bear you sons."

Qotho was ever the cruelest of the bloodriders. It was he who laughed. "Does the horse breed with the sheep?"

So from this I think we can gather that Drogo thinks outside the box, or that he has different ambitions from the average khal

49 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Also, he believes the earth ends at the black salt sea & they cannot cross the poison water. Dany has repeatedly told him otherwise but he stubbornly sticks to this belief.

I dont think he really thought that, just that its not worth it.

Like, for thousands of years Chinese people called China the Middle Kingdom, as in, in between the heavens and the underworld. They knew the earth is bigger then them, they just didnt think much of it 

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"Drogo says the stallion who mounts the world will have all the lands of the earth to rule, and no need to cross the poison water. He talks of leading his khalasar east after Rhaego is born, to plunder the lands around the Jade Sea."

The knight looked thoughtful. "The khal has never seen the Seven Kingdoms," he said. "They are nothing to him. If he thinks of them at all, no doubt he thinks of islands, a few small cities clinging to rocks in the manner of Lorath or Lys, surrounded by stormy seas. The riches of the east must seem a more tempting prospect.

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Or has the Khal promised nothing of the sort & Illyrio is lying? 

So, maybe?

The Cheesemonger isnt to be trusted, thats obvious, but for him to flat out lie about something as monumental as Drogos army, idk I don't see it. Specifically because he promised the GC Drogos full khalassars of 50k Screamers, brought by Viserys

What is fully probable however is that Illyrio may only have a basic understanding Dothraki language and something of his promise may have got lost in translation.

Also what's rather obvious is Illyrio has little understanding of Dothraki culture, as he knows Viserys is a weakling yet expected him to command 50,000 Dothraki screamers

[The Commentator]

Whether the Khal will lead the khalasar himself is not all that important.  What is important is the fact that Drogo will have to convince thousands of Dothraki riders to go to Westeros.  Drogo will provide an army strong enough to help King Viserys, Third of His Name, take back the throne.  Either way, a bargain was struck and there are obligations on both sides.  The Targaryens fulfilled their part of the deal, the Gift, if you will.  Now, Drogo is expected to give a Gift in return, a Gift that was worked out ahead of time.  In other words, the Gift is not a Xmas surprise.  Gift is actually a kind way to describe it.  What it was is socially binding, and to break it or renege on it is akin to the breaking of an oath. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Quite steep indeed, not what one would call a fat Walda like dowry.

Right! 

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The blood of old Valyria means something, it adds to his regal atmosphere and his ambiance of supremacy on the Dothraki Sea.

He could have taken a Dothraki to wife, as is probably the general tradition, 

Yeah maybe, you would think if the blood of old Valyria is so coveted by the Dothraki we would hear something about it, but it's something particular to Drogo? 

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So from this I think we can gather that Drogo thinks outside the box, or that he has different ambitions from the average khal

But that quote is from Dany not Drogo.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think he really thought that, just that its not worth it.

Like, for thousands of years Chinese people called China the Middle Kingdom, as in, in between the heavens and the underworld. They knew the earth is bigger then them, they just didnt think much of it 

Yeah maybe, even so though if he had very recently agreed to take his khalasar across the poison water wouldn't he find some other grounds to refuse Dany on? I mean if he agreed to lead his khalasar across the water, then said to Dany nope, can't cross them he is backtracking. The Khal doesn't cross me as an indecisive guy. 

 

35 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, maybe?

The Cheesemonger isnt to be trusted, thats obvious, but for him to flat out lie about something as monumental as Drogos army, idk I don't see it. Specifically because he promised the GC Drogos full khalassars of 50k Screamers, brought by Viserys

What is fully probable however is that Illyrio may only have a basic understanding Dothraki language and something of his promise may have got lost in translation.

Also what's rather obvious is Illyrio has little understanding of Dothraki culture, as he knows Viserys is a weakling yet expected him to command 50,000 Dothraki screamers

Right. Maybe not a flat out lie, but a misunderstanding or a misleading of sorts? Like maybe Drogo said he would gift him whatever he is worthy of or something like that? Idk. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Whether the Khal will lead the khalasar himself is not all that important

Well it's important if we are trying to answer that question, no? 

41 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

What is important is the fact that Drogo will have to convince thousands of Dothraki riders to go to Westeros

He is their commander, they will go where he tells them. I don't know why this would be important in the slightest irt whether or not Drogo promised an army or was going to lead them himself. 

42 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Drogo will provide an army strong enough to help King Viserys, Third of His Name, take back the throne.  Either way, a bargain was struck and there are obligations on both sides

Right. That's what I'm trying to figure out; what exactly was the bargain that was struck.

43 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The Targaryens fulfilled their part of the deal, the Gift, if you will.  Now, Drogo is expected to give a Gift in return, a Gift that was worked out ahead of time.  In other words, the Gift is not a Xmas surprise. 

How do we know it was worked out ahead of time with Drogo though?

44 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Gift is actually a kind way to describe it.  What it was is socially binding, and to break it or renege on it is akin to the breaking of an oath

It wasn't broken, if he was promised a crown, he got a crown. 

[Lady Winter Rose]

Khal Drogo promised crown - hence the "golden crown" he eventually got

[Hugorfonics]

38 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But that quote is from Dany not Drogo.

The part from Qotho I wanted to emphasize though, Dothraki look down at their neighbors and are apparently appalled to raise a child with one of them

56 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah maybe, you would think if the blood of old Valyria is so coveted by the Dothraki we would hear something about it, but it's something particular to Drogo?

I think its a sign of his aspirations, he understands its a political marriage, at the least he's thinking of his own politics

43 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah maybe, even so though if he had very recently agreed to take his khalasar across the poison water wouldn't he find some other grounds to refuse Dany on? I mean if he agreed to lead his khalasar across the water, then said to Dany nope, can't cross them he is backtracking. The Khal doesn't cross me as an indecisive guy. 

Well, what should he say? Either, its hes too craven, which hes not, or its not worth it compared to Qarth and Asshai, which its not lol.

But thats not the type of thing to say, you know he loves Dany, not enough to tell her the truth, but enough to not hurt her feelings. 

59 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right. Maybe not a flat out lie, but a misunderstanding or a misleading of sorts? 

Which is probably exactly what the Cheesemonger wants. Hes like Varys, only telling some truths and allowing assumptions to thrive.

He probably insinuated that Viserys is in need to reclaim his fathers little kingdoms, and stressed how easy itd be. Without any mention, of course, of Young Griff or Bittersteel

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Like maybe Drogo said he would gift him whatever he is worthy of or something like that? Idk. 

But it wouldnt be how much the gifter is worth, but the gift

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well, what should he say? Either, its hes too craven, which hes not, or its not worth it compared to Qarth and Asshai, which its not lol

Right he could just keep saying his son has no need for iron chairs. My point is just that he already agreed to cross the poison water with Viserys (if he planned on leading the khalasar) so why the qualms about it now? I think it's because he never planned on leading the khalasar. Maybe he planned on giving Viserys an army, but Drogo, himself never planned on going along. 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Which is probably exactly what the Cheesemonger wants. Hes like Varys, only telling some truths and allowing assumptions to thrive.

He probably insinuated that Viserys is in need to reclaim his fathers little kingdoms, and stressed how easy itd be. Without any mention, of course, of Young Griff or Bittersteel

Yeah exactly. That's what I'm thinking. Idk what exactly his motive is but I think he was playing some games. 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But it wouldnt be how much the gifter is worth, but the gift

Right so maybe Drogo told Illyrio he would gift Viserys an army if Viserys proved himself worthy. Illyrio, knowing Viserys would never prove himself among the Dothraki convienently left out the part about proving himself & just told the part about gifting him an army. Or something along those lines. 

What do you suppose Illyrio had to gain by marrying Dany to Drogo anyway? 

[Hugorfonics]

40 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right he could just keep saying his son has no need for iron chairs. My point is just that he already agreed to cross the poison water with Viserys (if he planned on leading the khalasar) so why the qualms about it now?

Its far and out of the way, thats alot to do to just cheer up the wife. The omens say war and the east is close and known to be wealthy

40 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 I think it's because he never planned on leading the khalasar. Maybe he planned on giving Viserys an army, but Drogo, himself never planned on going along. 

Idk, the Dothraki follow strength, not weak Viserys. Or stay at Pentos Viserys. I think Drogo would have led his men

40 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right so maybe Drogo told Illyrio he would gift Viserys an army if Viserys proved himself worthy. Illyrio, knowing Viserys would never prove himself among the Dothraki convienently left out the part about proving himself & just told the part about gifting him an army. Or something along those lines. 

But its not how worthy Viserys proves himself, itd be how worthy his gift was. Dany.

40 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah exactly. That's what I'm thinking. Idk what exactly his motive is but I think he was playing some games. 

Or, the game

40 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What do you suppose Illyrio had to gain by marrying Dany to Drogo anyway? 

Aegons army

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

48 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its far and out of the way, thats alot to do to just cheer up the wife. The omens say war and the east is close and known to be wealthy

Maybe, I just think if that was his deal he would say that. It's not the hill I wanna die on though, just a thought. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, the Dothraki follow strength, not weak Viserys. Or stay at Pentos Viserys. I think Drogo would have led his men

Oh for sure, they would never follow Viserys but there are indications in the quotes above that this is what Viserys thought he was going to do. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Aegons army

Ahh, I gotcha. Yeah that quote you gave before about he 50,000 men. 

[Gramse]

I really like the theory that it was never the intent to give Viserys any warriors nor attack Westeros. But what did they (Varys and Illyrio )try to accomplish? 

We know that they later admitted that they didn't expect Denearys to survive long with the Horselords. 

If they didnt think Viserys would get any warriors nor Denearys survive, then what was the point of it all? Did they want to scare Robert in doing something stupid?

Did they want the assasination of Denearys to be successful? And hoping that Khal Drogo would be so furious as to attack Westeros? And with that gain more power or pave the way for fAgeon?

But I don't see how 40 000 dothraki in westeros would help Viserys or Illyrio? The land would be so torned of war and the Dothraki would likely win and take the Throne. What then could fAegon do with his 10 000 men and some elephants?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Gramse said:

really like the theory that it was never the intent to give Viserys any warriors nor attack Westeros. But what did they (Varys and Illyrio )try to accomplish? 

Thanks, I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish to be honest. Maybe just to rid the realm of the last known Targaryens? But it would seem this is an elaborate way to kill them. Surely there are much easier ways. 

4 hours ago, Gramse said:

We know that they later admitted that they didn't expect Denearys to survive long with the Horselords. 

Right & if they didn't think Daenerys would survive the horselords, surely they believed Viserys wouldn't either right? At the very least, they had to know he would not be capable of leaking a Dothraki khalasar, regardless of what was promised. 

4 hours ago, Gramse said:

f they didnt think Viserys would get any warriors nor Denearys survive, then what was the point of it all? Did they want to scare Robert in doing something stupid?

Maybe? We know by the ending that Varys wants chaos for some reason. He kills Kevan because he will bring too much stability to the realm. Maybe this was just another ploy to create some chaos.

4 hours ago, Gramse said:

Did they want the assasination of Denearys to be successful? And hoping that Khal Drogo would be so furious as to attack Westeros? And with that gain more power or pave the way for fAgeon?

This is a possibility as well. 

4 hours ago, Gramse said:

But I don't see how 40 000 dothraki in westeros would help Viserys or Illyrio? The land would be so torned of war and the Dothraki would likely win and take the Throne. What then could fAegon do with his 10 000 men and some elephants?

I suppose it would depend on when Aegon arrived. It's possible that the intention was to let the Dothraki reak some havoc on the realm, depleting their own forces as well, before having Aegon swoop in to save the day. Aegon wouldn't be alone in his fight against the Dothraki, the entire rest of the realm would likely join that fight. I don't think there was any worry of the Dothraki winning or taking the throne, they don't really do things like that. Drogo would want to kill Robert & his accomplices as payment for Dany's death/attempted death & expect to be 'gifted' treasures. It's possible they would work their way across the kingdom, pillaging as they went, demanding 'gifts' in order to leave them alone but they aren't interested in establishing residence or staking claims. 

 

[Seams]

Some very theoretical notions (still in the early stages of consideration) might apply here. These are all on the level of literary analysis, so they may not answer all of the questions about logical plot points.

- Ilyrio and Varys operate on the level of puppeteers / gods. (I think other characters at this level include Tywin, Jon Arryn and Jeor Mormont. There are certainly others.) They are playing the game and manipulating other players to do things. While Viserys is talking about an army and a crown on one level, Ilyrio is talking and thinking on another level - there is always a hidden or double meaning in his words.

- Ilyrio is almost certainly aware of the prophecy that was known to Rhaegar and Maester Aemon but has not been fully revealed to the reader. We do know that "the dragon has three heads" is part of the prophecy, but that the Targaryens couldn't figure out how to hatch dragons. Ilyrio may be willing to trust fate to select the "correct" three dragons: Viserys, Daenerys, fAegon and/or Dany's baby; maybe Jon Snow or some other dragonseeds that have not been identified to us. Ilyrio may have expected Dany to die among the Dothraki but he did give her the three dragon eggs. I think he was betting on her to survive and planning that Viserys would be part of an "only death can pay for life" strategy to hatch the eggs.

- Khal Drogo, Dany's baby Rhaego and Viserys are allegorical. For the purposes of the plot, they are human beings (as are the puppeteers). On the symbolic level, we know that they are soon to be turned into Dany's dragons.

- The "moon of my life" and "sun and stars" terms of endearment are further clues about the symbolism. Khal Drogo is a setting sun who moves across the sky on horseback and believes he cannot cross the sea. Dany knows about dragon flight and believes that the sun can cross the sea. Once her dragons hatch, Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion will all be part of Dany's strategic return to Westeros. Viserys is always telling Dany not to wake the dragon - this is irony from the author because waking the dragon is exactly what allows the spirit of Viserys to live on in the form of the dragon Viserion, fulfilling his dreams of returning to Westeros. (Or so I assume we will see in the last two books of ASOIAF.)

- A crown is a dangerous thing in ASOIAF. Renly and Robb both head toward death after being crowned. Theon crowns himself at Winterfell and soon has nothing but grief and pain. Probably Joffrey's crown marks a similar turning point, too. I don't know how we can tell a healthy, just crown from a bad one - maybe we would have to take a closer look at early Targaryens who seemed to live happily after being crowned. I suspect the delay in delivering a crown to Viserys is a kind of "be careful what you wish for" situation where he is safe until he gets his crown. My favorite wordplay clue about crowns involves the word "crone." According to a Catelyn POV, The Crone of the Seven Gods brought the first raven into the world and ravens can fly through the door between life and death. If the wordplay surmise is correct, it might be that a crown somehow puts the wearer at the door between life and death, allowing the person to cross an otherwise impossible barrier. But the crown comes with a price: death in this existence. (There is probably also a crown / crow pun. Another pun at play here is on gift / Gift - the German word for poison is Gift. I think the implication is that gifts require the recipient to pay a price.)

- The "crown" that Khal Drogo delivers to Viserys is made out of gold medallions from Drogo's belt. The only wordplay guess that I have for "belt" is the German word "lebt," meaning "live." I think Khal Drogo is giving up his life when he makes that crown for Viserys. He is ready to take the leap to dragon and he is taking along Viserys and Rhaego (the stallion that mounts the world).

[TedBear]

18 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah maybe, you would think if the blood of old Valyria is so coveted by the Dothraki we would hear something about it, but it's something particular to Drogo?

In Drogo's mansion there was a picture of Valyria, perhaps he admired Valyrians. 

[The hairy bear]

 

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It seems to be unclear just how large his khalasar is also:

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"Drogo is so rich that even his slaves wear golden collars. A hundred thousand men ride in his khalasar, and his palace in Vaes Dothrak has two hundred rooms and doors of solid silver."

But later:

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Drogo had called his khalasar to attend him and they had come, forty thousand Dothraki warriors and uncounted numbers of women, children, and slaves.

 

It is established that the khalasar include many people who aren't warriors. From AGOT: "Drogo had called his khalasar to attend him and they had come, forty thousand Dothraki warriors and uncounted numbers of women, children, and slaves." So it's perfectly compatible that the khalasar has one 10 0 thousand men and 40 thousand warriors among them.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Dany notes the first slave of the Dothraki she comes in contact with has an ordinary bronze collar, not gold.

This slave was, in all likelyhood, one of Illyrio's. He was serving in Illyrio's party in his manse.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

- Ilyrio is almost certainly aware of the prophecy that was known to Rhaegar and Maester Aemon but has not been fully revealed to the reader. We do know that "the dragon has three heads" is part of the prophecy, but that the Targaryens couldn't figure out how to hatch dragons. Ilyrio may be willing to trust fate to select the "correct" three dragons: Viserys, Daenerys, fAegon and/or Dany's baby; maybe Jon Snow or some other dragonseeds that have not been identified to us. Ilyrio may have expected Dany to die among the Dothraki but he did give her the three dragon eggs. I think he was betting on her to survive and planning that Viserys would be part of an "only death can pay for life" strategy to hatch the eggs

Nice, I never thought of Illyrio wanting more than one dragon. 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

- The "moon of my life" and "sun and stars" terms of endearment are further clues about the symbolism. Khal Drogo is a setting sun who moves across the sky on horseback and believes he cannot cross the sea. Dany knows about dragon flight and believes that the sun can cross the sea. Once her dragons hatch, Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion will all be part of Dany's strategic return to Westeros. Viserys is always telling Dany not to wake the dragon - this is irony from the author because waking the dragon is exactly what allows the spirit of Viserys to live on in the form of the dragon Viserion, fulfilling his dreams of returning to Westeros. (Or so I assume we will see in the last two books of ASOIAF.)

I agree, the irony is magnificent.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

- A crown is a dangerous thing in ASOIAF. Renly and Robb both head toward death after being crowned. Theon crowns himself at Winterfell and soon has nothing but grief and pain. Probably Joffrey's crown marks a similar turning point, too. I don't know how we can tell a healthy, just crown from a bad one - maybe we would have to take a closer look at early Targaryens who seemed to live happily after being crowned. I suspect the delay in delivering a crown to Viserys is a kind of "be careful what you wish for" situation where he is safe until he gets his crown. My favorite wordplay clue about crowns involves the word "crone." According to a Catelyn POV, The Crone of the Seven Gods brought the first raven into the world and ravens can fly through the door between life and death. If the wordplay surmise is correct, it might be that a crown somehow puts the wearer at the door between life and death, allowing the person to cross an otherwise impossible barrier. But the crown comes with a price: death in this existence. (There is probably also a crown / crow pun. Another pun at play here is on gift / Gift - the German word for poison is Gift. I think the implication is that gifts require the recipient to pay a price.)

- The "crown" that Khal Drogo delivers to Viserys is made out of gold medallions from Drogo's belt. The only wordplay guess that I have for "belt" is the German word "lebt," meaning "live." I think Khal Drogo is giving up his life when he makes that crown for Viserys. He is ready to take the leap to dragon and he is taking along Viserys and Rhaego (the stallion that mounts the world).

Yeah, a crown is indeed a dangerous thing. The word play you mentioned with the crone of the seven gods brings Bran to mind. Perhaps he is the only one who can accept the crown without forever crossing through the door between life & death. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

57 minutes ago, TedBear said:

In Drogo's mansion there was a picture of Valyria, perhaps he admired Valyrians. 

Yeah for sure, he might. It just seems odd to me for Drogo to not only agree to give up part of his army but also to do what no Khal has done before - cross the poison water, all for Dany's hand in marriage. I would think that would take more than admiration but I don't know. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

42 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

It is established that the khalasar include many people who aren't warriors. From AGOT: "Drogo had called his khalasar to attend him and they had come, forty thousand Dothraki warriors and uncounted numbers of women, children, and slaves." So it's perfectly compatible that the khalasar has one 10 0 thousand men and 40 thousand warriors among them.

Gotcha. Later though, it is said the GC were expecting 50,000 dothraki warriors. Of course this is more inline with the 40,000 than 100,000 so the 40,000 is probably the most accurate number we have on how many warriors there are. 

43 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

This slave was, in all likelyhood, one of Illyrio's. He was serving in Illyrio's party in his manse.

I'll have to reread it, I was under the impression this is the first they go to Drogo's manse. Maybe I'm mistaken though. 

[ravenous reader]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

 Ilyrio may have expected Dany to die among the Dothraki but he did give her the three dragon eggs. I think he was betting on her to survive and planning that Viserys would be part of an "only death can pay for life" strategy to hatch the eggs.

- Khal Drogo, Dany's baby Rhaego and Viserys are allegorical. For the purposes of the plot, they are human beings (as are the puppeteers). On the symbolic level, we know that they are soon to be turned into Dany's dragons.

The lives of Dany’s 3 male kin are currency, exchanged for dragons.

Fittingly, in-world ‘Dragons’ are gold coins, underscoring the blood magic price paid!  In Viserys’ execution/murder, this relation is visually dramatised by the ‘gold medallions’ — i.e. gold coins — melted down, in exchange for Viserys’ life, similarly dissolved.

Controversial question:  if Dany’s kin — brother, son & spouse (sacrifice chronology corresponding to dragon birth order) — are currency for dragon creation, does it follow that Daenerys is in any way complicit/implicated in kinslaying?

Because, ultimately, that’s what I believe ‘waking the dragon’ entails — kinslaying. Did she dare dabble in the dark arts, in the name of ambition... Or is she a righteous, rather hapless victim, as the rabid SJW crowd would have it? 

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- The "moon of my life" and "sun and stars" terms of endearment are further clues about the symbolism. Khal Drogo is a setting sun who moves across the sky on horseback and believes he cannot cross the sea.

Nice analysis! 

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Dany knows about dragon flight and believes that the sun can cross the sea.

Analogously, weirwood magic (sinking into the greensea) vs. ‘seeing beyond the trees’. 

I believe the ‘son who will cross the greensea’ is Bran — he’s the stallion who will mount the world. As evidence, consider that the prophecy of the stallion ‘riding’ is given in the corresponding chapter (A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V) to Bran riding out of Winterfell ‘like the wind’:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran V

Robb smiled. "As you will." He sent his gelding into a trot. The wolves raced after him. Bran snapped the reins sharply, and Dancer picked up her pace. He heard a shout from Theon Greyjoy, and the hoofbeats of the other horses behind him.

Bran's cloak billowed out, rippling in the wind, and the snow seemed to rush at his face. Robb was well ahead, glancing back over his shoulder from time to time to make sure Bran and the others were following. He snapped the reins again. Smooth as silk, Dancer slid into a gallop. The distance closed. By the time he caught Robb on the edge of the wolfswood, two miles beyond the winter town, they had left the others well behind. "I can ride!" Bran shouted, grinning. It felt almost as good as flying.

"I'd race you, but I fear you'd win." 

 

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Once her dragons hatch, Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion will all be part of Dany's strategic return to Westeros. Viserys is always telling Dany not to wake the dragon - this is irony from the author because waking the dragon is exactly what allows the spirit of Viserys to live on in the form of the dragon Viserion, fulfilling his dreams of returning to Westeros. (Or so I assume we will see in the last two books of ASOIAF.)
 

Indeed. But, as I’ve mentioned above, I think ‘waking the dragon’ has a darker meaning — i.e. kinslaying. 

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A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Robert did that. Not the boy. My daughter has grown fond of him. And he is mine own blood."

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon."

 

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The Princess and the Queen

Yet neither Waters nor any of the other knights and lords present in the yard spoke a word of protest as King Aegon II delivered his half sister to his dragon. Sunfyre, it is said, did not seem at first to take any interest in the offering, until Broome pricked the queen’s breast with his dagger. The smell of blood roused the dragon, who sniffed at Her Grace, then bathed her in a blast of flame, so suddenly that Ser Alfred’s cloak caught fire as he leapt away. Rhaenyra Targaryen had time to raise her head toward the sky and shriek out one last curse upon her half brother before Sunfyre’s jaws closed round her, tearing off her arm and shoulder.

The golden dragon devoured the queen in six bites, leaving only her left leg below the shin “for the Stranger.” The queen’s son watched in horror, unable to move. Rhaenyra Targaryen, the Realm’s Delight and Half-Year Queen, passed from this veil of tears upon the twenty-second day of tenth moon of the 130th year after Aegon’s Conquest. She was thirty-three years of age.

 

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- A crown is a dangerous thing in ASOIAF.

As discussed, signifying a blood price...
A Crown, like a Dragon, is a coin! 

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A Storm of Swords - Davos V

"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ."

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash.

‘Kissed by fire’, like Viserys — probably not a good omen!

Interestingly, both Daenerys and Bran experience kisses of fire in their magic transformations via shade-of-the-evening and weirwood bole respectively (‘taste of molten gold’ [visceral reliving of Viserys’ death — see @40 Thousand Skeletons] and the ‘last kiss his [red-haired, kissed-by-fire] mother gave him’, evoked by putative ‘Jojen paste’ sacrifice). 

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Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"

"Everything," said Davos, softly.

You’ve heard of @Wizz-The-Smith’s COINS/SCION wordplay? Not made explicit in the text per se, but captures the theme of trading in ones relatives, including, especially children, for power (‘blood of my blood’... power of my power).

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Renly and Robb both head toward death after being crowned. Theon crowns himself at Winterfell and soon has nothing but grief and pain. Probably Joffrey's crown marks a similar turning point, too. I don't know how we can tell a healthy, just crown from a bad one - maybe we would have to take a closer look at early Targaryens who seemed to live happily after being crowned. I suspect the delay in delivering a crown to Viserys is a kind of "be careful what you wish for" situation where he is safe until he gets his crown. My favorite wordplay clue about crowns involves the word "crone." According to a Catelyn POV, The Crone of the Seven Gods brought the first raven into the world and ravens can fly through the door between life and death. If the wordplay surmise is correct, it might be that a crown somehow puts the wearer at the door between life and death, allowing the person to cross an otherwise impossible barrier. But the crown comes with a price: death in this existence. (There is probably also a crown / crow pun. Another pun at play here is on gift / Gift - the German word for poison is Gift. I think the implication is that gifts require the recipient to pay a price.)

The intersection of crown/crone is demonstrated by Stannis’s shrinking and greying, with depletion of his reproductive power, like a Crone, after having killed his brother in the name of power, making the ‘deal with the devil,’ selling his soul a la Macbeth. 

This is the most interesting aspect of GRRM’s moral equation, in that the one stealing power from his/her brother must in turn give up his/her own reproductive potential, for which removing the ‘belt’ is possibly a metaphor (think of wearing ones purse on ones belt, like a codpiece, the modern-day ‘fannypack’!)

Similarly, when Bran falls from the tower, having had his 3rd eye opened with the ‘terrible knowledge’, the gold kernels of corn simultaneously fall from his pocket, symbolising his lost ‘seed’ (cf. Greek gods, Zeus); likewise, Dany is famously barren after the birth of the dragons (having given up her human son in exchange for her dragon child/ren).

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A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Your Grace," Ser Axell said, "as it please you, I have brought the onion knight."

"So I see." Stannis wore a grey wool tunic, a dark red mantle, and a plain black leather belt from which his sword and dagger hung. A red-gold crown with flame-shaped points encircled his brows. The look of him was a shock. He seemed ten years older than the man that Davos had left at Storm's End when he set sail for the Blackwater and the battle that would be their undoing. The king's close-cropped beard was spiderwebbed with grey hairs, and he had dropped two stone or more of weight. He had never been a fleshy man, but now the bones moved beneath his skin like spears, fighting to cut free. Even his crown seemed too large for his head. His eyes were blue pits lost in deep hollows, and the shape of a skull could be seen beneath his face.

Yet when he saw Davos, a faint smile brushed his lips. "So the sea has returned me my knight of the fish and onions."

 

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- The "crown" that Khal Drogo delivers to Viserys is made out of gold medallions from Drogo's belt. The only wordplay guess that I have for "belt" is the German word "lebt," meaning "live." I think Khal Drogo is giving up his life when he makes that crown for Viserys. He is ready to take the leap to dragon and he is taking along Viserys and Rhaego (the stallion that mounts the world).

Do you think the constellation ‘Orion’s Belt’ (like Orion, Drogo is the Warrior archetype) may inform our interpretation? 

There is an intriguing biblical passage from Job 38, KJV:

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16“Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17Have the gates of death been [d]revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.

19“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?

22“Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
24By what way is light [e]diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?

25“Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen.[f]

31“Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,[g]
Or loose the belt of Orion?

Killing = presuming to seize the ‘fire of the gods’ for oneself (not achieved with impunity):

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A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

The girl was not sorry, though. Dareon had been a deserter from the Night's Watch; he had deserved to die.

She had said as much to the kindly man. "And are you a god, to decide who should live and who should die?" he asked her. "We give the gift to those marked by Him of Many Faces, after prayers and sacrifice. So has it always been, from the beginning...

... His hand closed around her arm, gently but firmly. "All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god's powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?"

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

23 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Controversial question:  if Dany’s kin — brother, son & spouse (sacrifice chronology corresponding to dragon birth order) — are currency for dragon creation, does it follow that Daenerys is in any way complicit/implicated in kinslaying?

Very nice post. I lack the magic you & @Seams share in your analysis' but I love reading them. 

I think this is a very interesting question. Whether or not we convict her of 'kinslaying' in the 'legal' sense of the word, she is complicit in their deaths. She, herself, smothered Drogo, albeit out of mercy. Rhaego is a little trickier because we don't know exactly what killed him. Was it MMD's blood magic? If so, Rhaego's life paid for Daenerys's wish (to save Drogo) whether or not she knew the price she was paying, or did Rhaego die because Dany was carried into the tent while the magic ritual was being performed, with Rhaego in her womb? (Something MMD warned against) this wouldn't have been something Dany did on purpose obviously but would still make her complicit in that it was her being in that tent that killed Rhaego. I think she is the farthest removed from Viserys's death but in the end it was done to protect her, so she is involved in a manner. 

They were all sacrificed for her dragons, purposefully or no. This seems to be necessary to hatch the dragons. I've always wondered if Rhaegar knew this & if so, who he intended to sacrifice.