Viserys' Gift

[ravenous reader]

37 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Very nice post. I lack the magic you & @Seams share in your analysis' but I love reading them. 

Thanks! 

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I think this is a very interesting question. Whether or not we convict her of 'kinslaying' in the 'legal' sense of the word, she is complicit in their deaths.

 That’s a fair way of framing it.

@Unchained has written an interesting essay on the subject, exploring how unconscious, rather than conscious, wishes/prayers may manifest —  Answered Prayers.  
 

According to his ingenious reading, Dany unconsciously offered up her unborn baby as a sacrifice, in order to save her own life, and possibly Drogo’s. After all, she was so desperate, she was willing to pay any price to bring him back from the brink of death, as you point out. When one is so desperate, one becomes apt to make reckless choices.  

Inviting Mirri Maz Dur to work black magic on her behalf was the equivalent of wielding a ‘sword without a hilt’ (in other words, ignoring Ned’s injunction, that the wo/man who passes the sentence, should swing the sword).

One of GRRM’s oft-overlooked themes is questioning the culpability of the watcher — the one for whom killing is done by proxy.  

In the current day, the prevailing ethos tends to provide exculpation by virtue of calling everyone a victim (for whom Daenerys is the champion-by-projection); however, GRRM is not so ready to give those who stand by, however passively, a free pass:

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A Storm of Swords - Catelyn III

"Aye, I did, but I took no part. I was only the watcher, I swear it . . ."

"Lord Umber," said Robb, "this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die. Mother, Uncle, with me, if you please." He turned away as the Greatjon's men closed upon the prisoners and drove them from the hall at spearpoint. Outside the thunder crashed and boomed, so loud it sounded as if the castle were coming down about their ears. Is this the sound of a kingdom falling? Catelyn wondered.

 

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She, herself, smothered Drogo, albeit out of mercy. Rhaego is a little trickier because we don't know exactly what killed him. Was it MMD's blood magic? If so, Rhaego's life paid for Daenerys's wish (to save Drogo) whether or not she knew the price she was paying, or did Rhaego die because Dany was carried into the tent while the magic ritual was being performed, with Rhaego in her womb? (Something MMD warned against) this wouldn't have been something Dany did on purpose obviously but would still make her complicit in that it was her being in that tent that killed Rhaego. I think she is the farthest removed from Viserys's death but in the end it was done to protect her, so she is involved in a manner. 

They were all sacrificed for her dragons, purposefully or no. This seems to be necessary to hatch the dragons. I've always wondered if Rhaegar knew this & if so, who he intended to sacrifice. 

Lyanna and Jon? 
@Frey family reunion

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

25 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

That’s a fair way of framing it.

Yeah, I hate to say I blame her but she is involved. 

25 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

has written an interesting essay on the subject, exploring how unconscious, rather than conscious, wishes/prayers may manifest —  Answered Prayers.

Thanks! I'll read that tonight or tomorrow & get back with you! 

27 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

According to his ingenious reading, Dany unconsciously offered up her unborn baby as a sacrifice, in order to save her own life, and possibly Drogo’s. After all, she was so desperate, she was willing to pay any price to bring him back from the brink of death, as you point out. When one is so desperate, one becomes apt to make reckless choices.  

Absolutely. I agree totally. 

27 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Inviting Mirri Maz Dur to work black magic on her behalf was the equivalent of wielding a ‘sword without a hilt’ (in other words, ignoring Ned’s injunction, that the wo/man who passes the sentence, should swing the sword)

Indeed. It wasn't done out of malice but it was done all the same & one could argue she did not ask questions she probably should have & so was ignorant by choice, if that makes sense? It's understandable & realistic, as you said she was desperate & willing to pay any price.

29 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

One of GRRM’s oft-overlooked themes is questioning the culpability of the watcher — the one for whom killing is done by proxy.

What other watchers do we have? I'm intrigued. 

30 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

In the current day, the prevailing ethos tends to provide exculpation by virtue of calling everyone a victim (for whom Daenerys is the champion-by-projection); however, GRRM is not so ready to give those who stand by, however passively, a free pass

For sure. I, agree with GRRM here, to a point. I think we all have a duty to stop someone else from being harmed if it is within our power to do so, without being grievously injured ourselves. I don't think those who do not have the power to do anything should be held accountable though. 

32 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Lyanna and Jon? 

Yeah, I've wondered. Who would be the 3rd? Or maybe Dany only needed 3 because she was hatching 3 dragons. I've never thought much about Lyanna but have often wondered if Rhaegar planned on sacrificing Jon to hatch a dragon for Aegon. This is reminiscent of Stannis wanting to sacrifice Edric - what is one boy's life in comparison to the entire realm? Davos has the right of it, I think; everything. 

[TedBear]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Controversial question:  if Dany’s kin — brother, son & spouse (sacrifice chronology corresponding to dragon birth order) — are currency for dragon creation, does it follow that Daenerys is in any way complicit/implicated in kinslaying?

Are you saying that Daenerys magically influenced the events around her and caused the death of her loved ones to bring dragons to life? 

Daenerys kills a person to give life to dragons, MMD.

She kills Drogo who would already be dead if she hadn't interfered, I understand that she gave him the gift of mercy ... If MMD had poisoned the dressings, I don't think Dany would be guilty if he died before the ritual, since Drogo is not a baby and could refuse, Dany is the naive girl here, when you marry a 13 year old girl don't expect wise advice from her, Drogo knew she was unreliable, if I give you the key of my car and you know that the tire is bald and yet it leaves, suffers an accident and dies the problem is completely yours.

Viserys dies like that because he is an imbecile, I think that nothing Dany could do could save him in that situation.

As for the baby, we don't know what really happened to him, but I believe he is the only one of the 3 that Dany unconsciously could have actually transferred his life to the egg. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, TedBear said:

Are you saying that Daenerys magically influenced the events around her and caused the death of her loved ones to bring dragons to life? 

No I don't think that's what they are saying. 

More that Daenerys being involved in each of these deaths, allowed for the necessary sacrifices to be met to fulfill the requirements needed to hatch the dragons. 

We aren't so much discussing blame or fault but more that these deaths are surrounding her & are sacrifices of hers, if that make sense? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, TedBear said:

As for the baby, we don't know what really happened to him, but I believe he is the only one of the 3 that Dany unconsciously could have actually transferred his life to the egg

Out of curiosity, what makes you believe she could have unconsciously transferred Viserys life to the eggs but not Drogo or Rhaego? 

[TedBear]

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Out of curiosity, what makes you believe she could have unconsciously transferred Viserys life to the eggs but not Drogo or Rhaego? 

I actually meant Rhaego, the baby. 

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sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it.

also the way she calls them sons, is very strange, even there she associates the egg with a son. The dragons seemed to have a mental link with Dany even before they were born, and if she could influence this, any of the three, it was their own son.  

And after Dany dreams of her adult son and sees him dead in the dream, she wakes up and looks for the eggs, as if unconsciously knew that his life is in the egg.

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 "Help me," she whispered, struggling to rise. "Bring me …" Her voice was raw as a wound, and she could not think what she wanted. Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps. "I want …"

"Yes, Khaleesi." Quick as that Jhiqui was gone, bolting from the tent, shouting. Dany needed … something … someone … what? It was important, she knew. It was the only thing in the world that mattered. She rolled onto her side and got an elbow under her, fighting the blanket tangled about her legs. It was so hard to move. The world swam dizzily. I have to …

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs ...... 

Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response.

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No I don't think that's what they are saying. 

More that Daenerys being involved in each of these deaths, allowed for the necessary sacrifices to be met to fulfill the requirements needed to hatch the dragons. 

Got it, it could have been.

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We aren't so much discussing blame or fault but more that these deaths are surrounding her & are sacrifices of hers, if that make sense?

It's a good line, now thinking only of sacrifices, I think neither Drogo nor Viserys had their lives destined to be exchanged for dragons, they died and their lives may have been transferred to the dragons later, because they were people loved by Dany, to the theory in question.

Personally do not believe that Viserys had to do with the ritual, he died in a different situation, I think the lives given were Drogo, MMD who were killed by Dany, and Rhaego who was transferred his vitality to a dragon.

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, TedBear said:

I actually meant Rhaego, the baby. 

 

4 hours ago, TedBear said:

also the way she calls them sons, is very strange, even there she associates the egg with a son. The dragons seemed to have a mental link with Dany even before they were born, and if she could influence this, any of the three, it was their own son.  

And after Dany dreams of her adult son and sees him dead in the dream, she wakes up and looks for the eggs, as if unconsciously knew that his life is in the egg.

Indeed. That's a nice catch. I never really looked at it like. I've often wondered why Dany wakes & the first thing she asks for is her eggs, this makes that make some sense. 

4 hours ago, TedBear said:

t's a good line, now thinking only of sacrifices, I think neither Drogo nor Viserys had their lives destined to be exchanged for dragons, they died and their lives may have been transferred to the dragons later, because they were people loved by Dany, to the theory in question.

Personally do not believe that Viserys had to do with the ritual, he died in a different situation, I think the lives given were Drogo, MMD who were killed by Dany, and Rhaego who was transferred his vitality to a dragon.

Yeah, I think the 'evidence' that Viserys's soul was implanted in one of the eggs is that she named the dragons after Drogo, Viserys, & Rhaegar (Rhaego) but I tend to agree with you. Viserys's death was too far removed from the situation & it's more likely that MMD was the final death that paid for the life of the dragons. 

That does bring to mind though: What will that mean if some of the person stays 'alive' in the dragon? Will Viserion (presuming Drogo went into Drogon & Rhaego into Rhaegal) have some sort of animosity towards Dany? I suppose that could be the case if it were Viserys in Viserion as well though. 

There is a quote to back up this claim also. I don't have it right now, but Dany does mention at some point that Drogo, Rhaego, & MMD deaths paid for the lives of the dragons. 

[TedBear]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I think the 'evidence' that Viserys's soul was implanted in one of the eggs is that she named the dragons after Drogo, Viserys, & Rhaegar (Rhaego) but I tend to agree with you.

I understand that she gives them that name because of the circumstances of their deaths. The green for Rhaegar, who died on the green banks of the trident, the cream with golden veins for Viserys who died with melted gold on his head.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That does bring to mind though: What will that mean if some of the person stays 'alive' in the dragon? Will Viserion (presuming Drogo went into Drogon & Rhaego into Rhaegal) have some sort of animosity towards Dany? I suppose that could be the case if it were Viserys in Viserion as well though

I also wonder this, it may be an irony of the behavior of these people in life, Drogo was "easily dominated" by Dany in life and fell in love with her, while Drogon is the most rebellious dragon and Dany is having a lot work in taming him. So Viserys (if he is) was a foolish and cruel brother, while Viserion seems to be the most intelligent and sociable dragon of the three, perhaps it is just the irony of the names, and they are really just dragons, with no human conscience interfering. The position that Dany put the eggs on Drogo’s pyre is also quite intriguing, because it was narrated specifically where Dany laid each of the 3 eggs, and what could it mean?

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There is a quote to back up this claim also. I don't have it right now, but Dany does mention at some point that Drogo, Rhaego, & MMD deaths paid for the lives of the dragons. 

She says that before going to Qarth.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 minutes ago, TedBear said:

I also wonder this, it may be an irony of the behavior of these people in life, Drogo was "easily dominated" by Dany in life and fell in love with her, while Drogon is the most rebellious dragon and Dany is having a lot work in taming him. So Viserys (if he is) was a foolish and cruel brother, while Viserion seems to be the most intelligent and sociable dragon of the three, perhaps it is just the irony of the names, and they are really just dragons, with no human conscience interfering. The position that Dany put the eggs on Drogo’s pyre is also quite intriguing, because it was narrated specifically where Dany laid each of the 3 eggs, and what could it mean?

For sure, there may be no human conscience in the dragons at all, they just needed a death to pay for their life. 

I've wondered about the placement of the eggs many times & haven't come up with anything convincing but I agree it probably means something. I don't know why we would get such details if not. 

[SeanF]

In-Universe, it seems that you don't actually have to intend the death of kin to be branded a kinslayer.   The son of Bael the Bard had no idea he had killed his father, but still ended up being flayed.

Her killing of Drogo was deliberate.  It was intended as an act of mercy, and there was no way that Dany could have looked after a comatose Drogo.  But, that would certainly count as kinslaying.

The killing of Rhaego?   There, I would say that Dany was the victim of MMD's malice.  One can't know whether MMD deliberately killed the child, or simply claimed the credit for it.  But, one can argue that Dany was an unwitting kinslayer, there, by asking MMD to perform blood magic.

Viserys?  I don't think one can argue that Dany was even an unwitting kinslayer, here.  She actually did everything possible to save him from himself, until he ran out of road.  But, interestingly, we can see in her final chapter of ADWD that she does feel herself to be responsible in some way for his death, if only because she loved the man who killed him.  At some level "murderer, betrayer, whore" is what she thinks she is.  I think she's blaming herself unnecessarily, but people are not always rational about these things.   In her sample chapter, Arianne (guilty about her own feelings about Quentyn) has already leapt to the conclusion that Dany had her husband murder her brother.  It will be so easy for Arianne to make the case that Dany first murdered her brother, and then her husband, to move onward and upward.

Dabbling in the Dark Arts?  Yes, I think it's clear that Daenerys did, both through MMD, and by sacrificing her, in order to hatch the eggs.  Admittedly, my sense is that some other power was at work there.  Daenerys was meant to hatch the dragons, in the same way that Bilbo was meant to find the One Ring.

A complicit watcher?  Well, the obvious case is Sansa.  From Sansa's POV, we know that LF is poisoning Sweetrobin.  His intention is to marry her to Harold Hardyng.  We also know that Sansa is administering fatal doses of sweetsleep to Sweetrobin.  What remains an open question is the extent to which Sansa understands that this is what she is doing.  At one level, she thinks she's doing it to control Sweetrobin's fits, and there is a medical argument for it;  there is no intent (in legal terms) to poison him.    But, we also know that Sansa's way of coping with the horrors she's been through is to construct a kind of fantasy world for herself.  At some subconscious level, does she appreciate that she is poisoning the boy?  Does the killing of a first cousin amount to kinslaying?