If God lived on earth, people would break his windows (on Judaism and antisemitism)

[Rippounet]

I'd rather keep this short, but this is getting way to off-topic for the British politics thread(s)...

6 minutes ago, dornishpen said:

Third, support for rebuilding the temple is tiny, because religiously that's something the Moshiach would do or G-d would do when the Moshiach comes and also there will be peace in the whole world when the Moshiach comes so having the temple won't start a war like doing it now would and so on. Support for "greater Israel"/Judea and Samaria should be part of Israel is much higher than support for building a temple.

Right, I should have been a bit more specific. To me "greater Israel" and rebuilding the Temple aren't that different tbh, one is the first step toward the other and it's all part of the same religious worldview.
Could be wrong though, I'm light-years away from being knowledgeable about religion.

6 minutes ago, dornishpen said:

Most Israelis are pretty horrified by Kahanists, though I've noticed an alarming trend of right wing American Jews suggesting the JDL (founded by Kahane) should return to protect from the antisemitic attacks in Brooklyn and against Synagogues. I'm not sure what the difference is, Kahanist terrorism was worse in Israel, but it also happened in the US. I think support for "greater Israel" or even just settlements or some unilateral annexations in general is probably the most problematic of these issues because it's the most widespread. I think longer term the issue is that Orthodox Jews, especially Charedim and Chasidim have much higher birth rates than secular Jews (using Israeli definition of secular) and even though there are plenty of people like me who go off the derech the majority do not so the population grows and eventually will become a majority.

The bolded is indeed what I was told the last time I visited. I have to say there wasn't much optimism to go around on political matters.

I'm obviously worried about fundamentalism generally speaking, and the fact that extremist views will get the support of other far-right movements such as Trumpism in the US.

6 minutes ago, dornishpen said:

A few things I think, first I wonder has most of your family left Israel or do you still have a lot of family there?
Second, Most Israelis are secular by Israeli definitions, meaning they're not keeping Shabbat etc, but maybe do some religious things. This might seem religious to someone who is secular by other standards.

Pretty much every single Jewish relative I have is still there (my personal story is even more complicated than my family's, and that's saying something).
I think my family is secular by any standard though. My own father is a proud Buddhist with a Filipino wife (my step-mother)...

6 minutes ago, dornishpen said:

Likud does obviously support settlements, but not for religious reasons, initially probably it was to pander to the religious zionists, but now they support them independent of that.

I must confess I'm not up to date on this then, I thought Likud was still pandering to the religious factions. What other reasons do they have for supporting new settlements then?

[dornishpen]

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I'd rather keep this short, but this is getting way to off-topic for the British politics thread(s)...

Right, I should have been a bit more specific. To me "greater Israel" and rebuilding the Temple aren't that different tbh, one is the first step toward the other and it's all part of the same religious worldview.
Could be wrong though, I'm light-years away from being knowledgeable about religion.

"Greater Israel" is something religious zionists believe they can do, but most frum Jews believe the temple will only happen when Moshiach comes. People have various ideas how to get that to happen sooner rather than later, but almost none of them involve building the temple. Basically the Jewish Moshiach has specific requirements (that the Christian one definitely did not meet), I can list some of them if you're interested.

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The bolded is indeed what I was told the last time I visited. I have to say there wasn't much optimism to go around on political matters.

There's not.

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I'm obviously worried about fundamentalism generally speaking, and the fact that extremist views will get the support of other far-right movements such as Trumpism in the US.

In the US the biggest Israel cheerleaders (and they tend to be generally uncritical of any Israeli policies) are evangelicals. Almost all the Republican Party Israel posturing is related to them and not to Jews. Most American Jews are critical of settlements, the occupation etc while supporting Israel's right to exist.

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I must confess I'm not up to date on this then, I thought Likud was still pandering to the religious factions. What other reasons do they have for supporting new settlements then?

They do still pander, but now that settlements have expanded so much it's not just religious zionists who live there but also secular Israelis who live in them because the cost of living is a lot lower.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

Most secular Israelis, most of whom are actually traditional rather than secular, have pretty much always believed in settling all the land, including the historic heartland in Yehuda and Shomron.

They did so based on Jews being indigenous to these lands going back four millennia, not necessarily because they all religiously believe the divine promises in the Tanakh.

And their willingness to make peace which would hand those lands to the Arab Palestinians, and exclude Jews from living in those lands, was never based on a rejection of a Jewish claim to these lands, but purely for the sake of making peace.

Very few Israelis left or right envision a situation where the largest settlements (which are built on a small percentage of Yehuda and Shomron) are not annexed. Most envision a swap of land from within the 49 armistice lines in return for them.

And a lot of those, left or right, who support even greater annexation than just the main settlement blocs, do so not for religious reasons, but because all of Israel, especially Gush Dan (which is where a lot of the left tends to care about most), will be vulnerable to attacks from above from a Palestinian state in Yehuda and Shomron, as was the case from the Golan Heights when Syria ruled it.

Furthermore, the fact is, it was the right in Israel that made peace with Egypt and returned the Sinai, and it was the former right-turned-centrists that withdrew all Jews from Gaza, and (in the case of Olmert) offered the greatest peace deal with Arab Palestinians have and probably will ever receive.

[dornishpen]

The average Israeli isn't a religious Zionist, but we were discussing that specific ideology and it carried over here. And yes most Israelis are much more willing to compromise than religious Zionists, who are not.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 hours ago, dornishpen said:

The average Israeli isn't a religious Zionist, but we were discussing that specific ideology and it carried over here. And yes most Israelis are much more willing to compromise than religious Zionists, who are not.

 

Well, I’m still curious as to why so many on the anti-Zionist left are willing to use anti Semitic tropes like “Zionists are all rich” or “Zionists control the media”?  Do they not recognize that these are ancient anti Semitic slurs with the name changed?  

[Bael's Bastard]

11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Well, I’m still curious as to why so many on the anti-Zionist left are willing to use anti Semitic tropes like “Zionists are all rich” or “Zionists control the media”?  Do they not recognize that these are ancient anti Semitic slurs with the name changed?  

A lot of younger people don't know about the decades long propaganda campaign by the USSR to demonize Zionism, spread to the Middle East, Latin America, and Africa, using the same language it and its Czarist predecessor used to demonize Jews (not that that excuses them for not doing their due diligence before adopting this venomous language). The Soviets built it into their platform, so that wherever their ideology was spread, their brand of antisemitism/anti-Zionism were spread and adopted.

[Bael's Bastard]

Some links:

https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/103576/the-cold-wars-arab-spring

https://fathomjournal.org/soviet-anti-zionism-and-contemporary-left-antisemitism/

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

A lot of younger people don't know about the decades long propaganda campaign by the USSR to demonize Zionism, spread to the Middle East, Latin America, and Africa, using the same language it and its Czarist predecessor used to demonize Jews (not that that excuses them for not doing their due diligence before adopting this venomous language). The Soviets built it into their platform, so that wherever their ideology was spread, their brand of antisemitism/anti-Zionism were spread and adopted.

I’ve had some... vehement... responses from anti-zionists who claim I’m the one with issues because I point out their use of ancient anti Semitic slurs in their advocacy.  Are they that inculcated in their bubble that they don’t see the problem?

[dornishpen]

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’ve had some... vehement... responses from anti-zionists who claim I’m the one with issues because I point out their use of ancient anti Semitic slurs in their advocacy.  Are they that inculcated in their bubble that they don’t see the problem?

Yes. It's like the whole the Labour Party thing in the U.K. where so many people can't or won't see the antisemitism and pointing it out makes people angry. There are also people like this around Bernie Sanders which is ironic since he's Jewish. I don't think he's antisemitic personally and he doesn't even share the anti-Zionism of a Corbyn, but his willingness to associate with antisemites is alarming in a way reminiscent of what happened to the U.K. Labour Party.

ETA also while the majority of Israelis aren't religious zionists (which is a specific ideology and quite extreme), they are zionists.

[Rippounet]

15 hours ago, dornishpen said:

They do still pander, but now that settlements have expanded so much it's not just religious zionists who live there but also secular Israelis who live in them because the cost of living is a lot lower.

Ah yes, I remember being told about this. It has to do with a combination of cheaper real estate (obviously), but also quite often free water and electricity since settlers take the liberty of connecting themselves to the grid(s), right?

I remember thinking that by turning a blind eye, the government was in fact encouraging the settlements and secular Israelis were just being used to pretend it wasn't done to pander to the religious factions.

15 hours ago, dornishpen said:

"Greater Israel" is something religious zionists believe they can do, but most frum Jews believe the temple will only happen when Moshiach comes. People have various ideas how to get that to happen sooner rather than later, but almost none of them involve building the temple. Basically the Jewish Moshiach has specific requirements (that the Christian one definitely did not meet), I can list some of them if you're interested.

That seems awfully lazy on my part since I can just ask one of my parents when I see them, but since I opened this thread, why not feed it if you feel up to it, it's always interesting food for thought.

12 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Most secular Israelis, most of whom are actually traditional rather than secular, have pretty much always believed in settling all the land, including the historic heartland in Yehuda and Shomron.

And their willingness to make peace which would hand those lands to the Arab Palestinians, and exclude Jews from living in those lands, was never based on a rejection of a Jewish claim to these lands, but purely for the sake of making peace.

Very few Israelis left or right envision a situation where the largest settlements (which are built on a small percentage of Yehuda and Shomron) are not annexed. Most envision a swap of land from within the 49 armistice lines in return for them.

I'm willing to believe this (as I said in the other thread I tend to think I'm in the minority in many wyas), but do you have any kind of evidence for such claims? In my experience things can be a bit more complicated than that.

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Well, I’m still curious as to why so many on the anti-Zionist left are willing to use anti Semitic tropes like “Zionists are all rich” or “Zionists control the media”?  Do they not recognize that these are ancient anti Semitic slurs with the name changed?  

I'll play devil's advocate a bit here and point out that the media's treatment of Israeli policies can in fact be problematic. Many media outlets carefully avoid analysing some specific policies that can be tied back to religious beliefs because this would be viewed as antisemitic. It's not a matter of "Zionists controling the media" of course, but religious Zionists can be very effective at preventing even perfectly legitimate and reasonable criticisms of Israel.

And this is a real issue for me. People who are not Jewish will self-censor some of their ideas to such a point that everyone is more tempted to listen to what antisemites have to say. The Jews then see antisemitism on the rise. The middle-ground thus tends to disappear for everyone.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

27 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’ve had some... vehement... responses from anti-zionists who claim I’m the one with issues because I point out their use of ancient anti Semitic slurs in their advocacy.  Are they that inculcated in their bubble that they don’t see the problem?

I am sure the explanation is different in different cases. Some humans buy into a thing to such a great extent that they are unable to admit flaws or fallibility, whether because they buy into it totally, or are afraid failings in any areas will undermine the whole. This is not the monopoly of religious people.

In the case of Corbyn and his followers, some people wanted Corbyn and his policies to win so badly, they either didn't believe/care about Jewish concerns in the first place, or prioritized Corbyn and his policies winning over Jewish concerns. The ends justified the means.

 

[dornishpen]

@Rippounet I don't want to edit your post down on mobile, but in terms of religion, for Moshiach, he will be a fully human Jewish person from the line of David (traced on the male side), he will restore Jerusalem and rebuild the temple and restore things like the Sanhedrin. He will usher in the Messianic age where there is peace in the entire world, no more hatred, wars, starvation etc. There's more, but you get the point. Some people believe he can brought sooner by Jews doing mitzvot (following halacha) or all Jews keeping Shabbat. Many people believe he will arrive by 6000, this year is 5780. Many people believe there is a potential Moshiach in every generation. Because the temple is one of the Moshiach requirement very few people support rebuilding without him, because it doesn't make sense in terms of their religious beliefs.

 

[Rippounet]

On 3/4/2020 at 3:50 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

Most secular Israelis, most of whom are actually traditional rather than secular, have pretty much always believed in settling all the land, including the historic heartland in Yehuda and Shomron.

So I was still trying to figure out whether this statement was true and found this interesting study by the Pew Research Center in 2016:
https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/

It is highly informative for anyone interested.

Also found this NYT article on the divide between American Jews and Israelis (which I think is exaggerated):
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/opinion/sunday/israeli-jews-american-jews-divide.html

Plus an interesting one anti-Zionism vs antisemitism:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic

 

[Bael's Bastard]

@Rippounet

I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you, but I want to put the proper time into a response with sources, etc. when I get a chance to sit down at the computer. However we may disagree on aspects of this topic, I appreciate you fleshing out your background a bit, which helps me better understand where you are coming from.

[dornishpen]

@Rippounetin terms of that pew study and the Zionists or not for Charedi, they're not generally anti-Zionists (Neturei Karta excepted and they're small but loud), it's more like they're non-Zionists until Moshiach comes. Religious Zionists are often called dati leumi or kippa sruga in Hebrew and are part of the dati grouping.

[Feologild]

It would be funny if God came to earth and it was Shiva that came.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

On 3/7/2020 at 5:11 AM, Feologild said:

It would be funny if God came to earth and it was Shiva that came.

Wow, that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

[dornishpen]

So maybe relevant to this thread, today was Purim which is a holiday that's about antisemitism. But we defeated the antisemitism in the holiday so it's a joyous holiday and probably one of the most fun holidays.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

19 minutes ago, dornishpen said:

So maybe relevant to this thread, today was Purim which is a holiday that's about antisemitism. But we defeated the antisemitism in the holiday so it's a joyous holiday and probably one of the most fun holidays.

The Rabbi and his wife who live around the corner from us brought us some Purim treats yesterday.

[dornishpen]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The Rabbi and his wife who live around the corner from us brought us some Purim treats yesterday.

They gave you shalach manos? Did it have hamantashen?