Angel Eyes Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 So GRRM said in one of his SSMs that Brandon (son of Rickard) was the best swordsman and best jouster of the Stark siblings. But I’m not really convinced; the only person he seemed to have fought was Littlefinger, who was a poor swordsman, and doesn’t seem to have participated in combat at any point outside of tournaments and sparring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I think we can take the author's word for it. Whenever Brandon is brought up, he's portrayed as a wild, hypermasculine man obsessed with sex and violence, as well as having a fearsome temper. I can definitely buy that he's the most dangerous of the Stark siblings. Though he's also the stupidest, because he apparently spent days riding to King's Landing and didn't once consider that riding up to the Red Keep and threatening the Crown Prince with death wouldn't have any consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Being the best of the siblings only means being better than Ned and Benjen...is not really surprising that Brandon is the best in this case, Eddard seems pretty average, and we never see Benjen fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 This is one of those situations where we're meant to assume that the narrative didn't need to list everyone he's ever fought or beaten in tournaments because it wasn't relevant to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: So GRRM said in one of his SSMs that Brandon (son of Rickard) was the best swordsman and best jouster of the Stark siblings. I wouldn't necessarily expect the Starks to be that great at jousting, since northmen are less into knighthood and chivalry. I don't think we know of him unhorsing anyone in any tourney. On the other hand, Lyanna is believed by most readers to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree based on her horse-riding, and she was able to defeat three knights who had earlier been champions. This seems rather implausible for someone who would have had little jousting experience (something that would also apply to Howland Reed), but I suppose this is one of those instances where you just have to accept that the plucky underdog wins in a fantasy story. 14 hours ago, Canon Claude said: Though he's also the stupidest, because he apparently spent days riding to King's Landing and didn't once consider that riding up to the Red Keep and threatening the Crown Prince with death wouldn't have any consequences. I think he expected the consequences would involve Rhaegar answering for his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Last time I checked Martin is the only writer of ASOIAF universe. Why are you doubting his own words is beyond me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Daedrunk Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 14 hours ago, Arthur Peres said: Being the best of the siblings only means being better than Ned and Benjen...is not really surprising that Brandon is the best in this case, Eddard seems pretty average, and we never see Benjen fighting. I tend to think of the Stark "average" as a good deal above average when compared the the greater population of Westeros. Jon was constantly told that one of the reasons he was a better fighter than most the rest at the wall was because he was trained how to fight from a young age by seasoned veterans. We can only assume Brandon, Benjen, Ned, and even Lyanna have access to better training than at least 50% of the 7K. Plus, it is known that Brandon and Lyanna seem to have more "wolf blood" in them than the rest of their siblings, for whatever that is worth. And that worth seems to give certain Starks abnormal strength and aptitude in combat when in danger or pushed to their limits. Given that I would say it is fairly easy to assume/trust GRRM that Brandon was the best swordsman of the litter. Hells, Ned at least held his own against Darkstar and, as others pointed out above, Lyanna supposedly unseated three knights as the assumed KotLT. I'm going to have to agree with my other liege commentators that listing Brandon's victories wasn't terribly important nor necessary to establish that the oldest Stark of this generation was a gifted fighter and most likely the best swordsman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 17 hours ago, Lord Daedrunk said: I tend to think of the Stark "average" as a good deal above average when compared the the greater population of Westeros. Jon was constantly told that one of the reasons he was a better fighter than most the rest at the wall was because he was trained how to fight from a young age by seasoned veterans. We can only assume Brandon, Benjen, Ned, and even Lyanna have access to better training than at least 50% of the 7K. Plus, it is known that Brandon and Lyanna seem to have more "wolf blood" in them than the rest of their siblings, for whatever that is worth. And that worth seems to give certain Starks abnormal strength and aptitude in combat when in danger or pushed to their limits. Given that I would say it is fairly easy to assume/trust GRRM that Brandon was the best swordsman of the litter. Hells, Ned at least held his own against Darkstar and, as others pointed out above, Lyanna supposedly unseated three knights as the assumed KotLT. I'm going to have to agree with my other liege commentators that listing Brandon's victories wasn't terribly important nor necessary to establish that the oldest Stark of this generation was a gifted fighter and most likely the best swordsman. Sure a noble would be more trained and therefore more capable than a peasent, as Jon says those grow men in the wall aren't half the fighter that Robb was... but that does not say much about how good was Ned. Ned and Rodrik were both beat by Yohn Royce, that isn't presented as a top fighter in the realm. GRRM says that Eddard was very average and we have no information on Benjen. I would not be surprised if Loras was a better fighter than Brandon for example. I don't see any of the sons of Rickard being a top 15 of their generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Daedrunk Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said: Sure a noble would be more trained and therefore more capable than a peasent, as Jon says those grow men in the wall aren't half the fighter that Robb was... but that does not say much about how good was Ned. Ned and Rodrik were both beat by Yohn Royce, that isn't presented as a top fighter in the realm. GRRM says that Eddard was very average and we have no information on Benjen. I would not be surprised if Loras was a better fighter than Brandon for example. I don't see any of the sons of Rickard being a top 15 of their generation. Right, I don't disagree, nor am I saying that the Starks in question are top tier swordsmen. Just pointing out that they are at the least good swordsmen and better than most (the majority of the 7K), but not implying they are some of the best (let alone top 15). I believe the question was if Brandon was really "that good", not if Brandon is one of the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 On 3/4/2020 at 11:20 PM, Angel Eyes said: So GRRM said in one of his SSMs that Brandon (son of Rickard) was the best swordsman and best jouster of the Stark siblings. But I’m not really convinced; the only person he seemed to have fought was Littlefinger, who was a poor swordsman, and doesn’t seem to have participated in combat at any point outside of tournaments and sparring. I'm confused, are you not convinced that Brandon was a good swordsman or are you not convinced that he was better than Eddard and Benjen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted March 7, 2020 Author Share Posted March 7, 2020 4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: I'm confused, are you not convinced that Brandon was a good swordsman or are you not convinced that he was better than Eddard and Benjen? I'm not convinced he was a good swordsman. The only person he's said to be facing in non-sparring combat is Petyr Baelish, who is a poor swordsman, and beating someone like that is not much of a feat. It's the same sort of problem I have with Rhaegar Targaryen; everyone talks about how much he embodied the Westerosi chivalry ideal, but from what we know of Rhaegar he does not show the necessary social dignity or military aptitude; he screwed up his only battle by crossing the River Trident when he could have waited, and the only person he fought outside of a tournament tenderized him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James West Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said: I'm not convinced he was a good swordsman. The only person he's said to be facing in non-sparring combat is Petyr Baelish, who is a poor swordsman, and beating someone like that is not much of a feat. It's the same sort of problem I have with Rhaegar Targaryen; everyone talks about how much he embodied the Westerosi chivalry ideal, but from what we know of Rhaegar he does not show the necessary social dignity or military aptitude; he screwed up his only battle by crossing the River Trident when he could have waited, and the only person he fought outside of a tournament tenderized him. He was the best swordsman in the family. If Ned is considered capable, wouldn't that mean Brandon was at least better than average? I think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 On 3/5/2020 at 3:29 PM, Lord Daedrunk said: Hells, Ned at least held his own against Darkstar Ned never fought Darkstar, but rather the Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne. And he says that he would have died if not for Howland Reed, although we don't know the precise details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: I'm not convinced he was a good swordsman. The only person he's said to be facing in non-sparring combat is Petyr Baelish, who is a poor swordsman, and beating someone like that is not much of a feat. It's the same sort of problem I have with Rhaegar Targaryen; everyone talks about how much he embodied the Westerosi chivalry ideal, but from what we know of Rhaegar he does not show the necessary social dignity or military aptitude; he screwed up his only battle by crossing the River Trident when he could have waited, and the only person he fought outside of a tournament tenderized him. Who ever said Brandon was a good swordsman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: It's the same sort of problem I have with Rhaegar Targaryen; everyone talks about how much he embodied the Westerosi chivalry ideal, but from what we know of Rhaegar he does not show the necessary social dignity or military aptitude; he screwed up his only battle by crossing the River Trident when he could have waited, and the only person he fought outside of a tournament tenderized him. Rhaegar Targaryen is being remembered nostalgically, so of course his positive traits are blown up by those remembering him fondly. I can buy that he was a very capable jouster and knight while still being ill-prepared for a brawl that the Battle of the Trident became. Rhaegar is facing Robert Baratheon, one of the strongest and mightiest warriors of his day. And keep in mind, Robert never ruled the lists, hence why Margaery was quick to call Cersei out on her slip-up in AFFC. Just like how Jaime might be one of the best warriors alive and still be an idiot while leading troops and getting himself captured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Daedrunk Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 On 3/6/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Ned never fought Darkstar, but rather the Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne. And he says that he would have died if not for Howland Reed, although we don't know the precise details. Ah, that's right, my bad. I got confused. Thanks for the correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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