Jump to content

Why did Tywin abandon Tyrion's promise to deliver Gregor to the Martells?


Alyn Oakenfist

Recommended Posts

I'll throw in two cents from the literary analysis point of view and then everyone can continue to argue opinions about personalities. Feel free to skip this if symbolism hurts your brain.

Tywin dies on the privy. I think GRRM has created wordplay around "viper" and "privy." Oberyn Martell is known as the Red Viper. A close reading of the text is needed, but the author may be implying that Tywin is impaled by the Viper - similar to the poisoning / slow death of Gregor Clegane - when he dies on the privy. (Or maybe the point is that Tywin is caught between Tyrion and Oberyn at the moment of truth.)

But Lannisters (particularly Tywin and Jaime) are associated with bad smells and shit. Tywin is rumored to "shit gold" and Jaime has "shit for honor." When Tyrion shoots Tywin, he remarks that the rumor about Tywin must be false as Tywin voids his bowels and the result is not gold. The point could be that, like Jaime, Tywin has shit for honor.

Is this consistent with Tywin's past behavior? Tywin's father gave away money and arranged marriages for his dependents. Tywin didn't like his father's decisions and he reversed some of those decisions when he assumed the lordship. Early in the series, Cersei grants Harrenhal to Janos Slynt. Tywin believes that is too rich a prize for the son of a butcher and he tells Tyrion to renege on that decision. There is not solid proof, but I believe that Tywin manipulated Lord Denys Darklyn into taking King Aerys hostage at the Defiance of Duskendale. This may not exactly fit the "broken promise" pattern, but, if true, it would be treason. And then there is the whole elaborate lie about, and torture of, Tysha.

I think it's fair to say that Tywin has shit for honor.

More symbolism: the "rain" that drowns the Reynes of Castamere is a diverted river. This symbolism seems to fit the notion of Tywin reversing decisions or trying to change the course of events. We also see a river that has changed course near the inn at the crossroads and during Tyrion's riverboat adventure on the Rhoyne. (I suspect the boat travels a loop on an oxbow in that situation, not on a river that has reversed course.)

Aside from being a "green" character (more literary stuff - I am on a green vs. brown symbolism quest lately), Gregor Clegane is a giant. (But he does not seem to be jolly.) Who else is a giant? Tyrion Lannister. Shae calls him "my giant of Lannister" and Maester Aemon says he is a giant and he has a giant shadow in that early feast scene at Winterfell. I think that Tywin sees Tyrion as a valuable member of the family, even if his overt comments are cruel. Genna Lannister Frey also observes that Tyrion is like Tywin in important ways. I get the feeling that Tywin is secretly preparing Tyrion for a great future, even though he seems to treat him with contempt. He puts Tyrion in charge of cleaning the drains at Casterly Rock, symbolically demonstrating that Tyrion is honorable - he does not have shit for honor because he clears out the drains that others have clogged. He also appoints him as acting Hand of the King and then Master of Coin.

This is convoluted but I think it's significant: I know there has to be hidden meaning behind Tywin giving the Valyrian Steel blades to Joffrey and Jaime but telling Tyrion to get the dagger that Gerion Lannister gave to Robert Baratheon. Gerion is associated with the missing House Lannister sword Bright Roar. Gerion is missing and we don't know whether he ever found the sword, so the dagger is the only blade associated with him. I can't swear to it, but I think this is another case where Tywin is symbolically favoring Tyrion while appearing to insult him: a father (or father figure) presenting a family blade is significant. There are certainly added layers of meaning in the dagger as a gift from Gerion, the possession of a king and the ivory handle (elephant ivory? whale ivory?) with a sapphire pommel. Sapphires are associated with Brienne, another giant. If anybody wants to sort out the rest of that symbolism, feel free.

Back to the point: If Tyrion is a symbolic giant and Ser Gregor is a real giant in service to House Lannister, Tywin's refusal to turn Gregor over to the Martells may be a refusal to turn over Tyrion. (Note: Tyrion is described as having an outsized, large head.) Just as Cersei can't get anyone to bring her Tyrion's head, the Martells can't get Ser Gregor's head (from Tywin).

Recall, also, at Joffrey's wedding feast, the "head" of one of the mummer dwarfs was severed and landed in the lap of Ser Balman Byrch, husband of Falyse Stokeworth. It turned out the head was actually a melon and the mummer dwarf had not been beheaded at all. Ser Balman is associated with Tyrion's bff Bronn (a brown character), who marries Lollys Stokeworth and kills Ser Balman. Falyse Stokeworth, of course, becomes an ingredient for turning Ser Gregor into a super soldier. Again, this is all very convoluted but I suspect that the symbolism is that both Team Stokeworth and Team Martell have received either fake heads or food heads - the dwarf head is a melon and the Martell family celebrates the delivery of Ser Gregor's head by eating desserts shaped like skulls.

If "Tyrion = Ser Gregor" (on a symbolic level) why would Tyrion plan to send Ser Gregor's head to House Martell? This is another area that needs more study, but I think it goes to the major theme of Justice that starts with Ned beheading Gared after the preface. Tyrion says he killed his mother but we don't hold a baby responsible for a mother dying in childbirth. Tyrion also says that he killed Joffrey but a lot of evidence points away from Tyrion and toward others. Is Tyrion also responsible for the deaths of Ser Gregor and Prince Oberyn, since they are fighting to prove his guilt or innocence? Tyrion does kill Tywin, so there is that. My point is that Tyrion seems to take on responsibility for some crimes that are not committed by his hand. Maybe the author is telling us that, on some symbolic level, when he plans to send Gregor's head to Dorne, Tyrion is admitting a role in the deaths of Princess Elia and her children.

Long story short:

1) Reversing decisions or promises made by others is consistent with Tywin's history.

2) Tywin has shit for honor.

3) Tywin doesn't want Ser Gregor to die, just as he doesn't want Tyrion to die.

4) Tywin is attempting to save Tyrion from his own self-destructive impulses.

5) Maybe the Martells didn't get Ser Gregor's head, consistent with Tywin's desires.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think Euron, Walder Frey, Ramsay, Joffrey and the Mountain would like a word with you. Tywin may be evil and completely ruthless, but he isn't a sadist like some other people. He doesn't do evil for evil's sake or for some perverted reason but rather with a clear goal in mind.

None of those characters, save for Joffrey, (maybe/probably Ramsay) do evil for the sake of evil. Gregor is terrible, but hes a tortured soul, its reasonably fair to assume he has conflicting views on his life. Tywin however

Quote

"Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

But not in you, Father. There is no blood in Tywin Lannister.

has no regrets over his atrocities, just the political backlash that ensures. 

21 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 I don't however think he thinks he is smarter then he actually is. The thing that sets Tywin and Tyrion apart from Cersei is their intelligence, which is pretty impressive, though it does come across in different ways.

He never did anything that amazing, he was just ruthless. None of his victories were that spectacular and his life long goal of kicking Tyrion out of the Rock was done with minimal effort and is surely not going to go as planned. Small wonder Genna calls him a fool.

Cersei however has defeated every antagonist she has come across, shes made a few mistakes and is perhaps too trusting to some but shes accomplished far too much to be written off as stupid. Shes roughly Tywin like. Tywin with Teats, (or Cersei with a bath robe lol.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Hugorfonics

Are joking right?? None of Cersei: s accomplishments are hers, she has always, always have too much luck or actually people firmly helping her to succeed.

She didn't deal  with old Jon, Lysa did. 

She didn't deal  with Ned, Petyr did. For all the talk about Ned being incompetent, everything, absolutely everything had to go wrong so Cersei stood a chance and even then, had Ned being delivered the Golden Cloaks, she would've been killed.

She didn't deal  with Robert, and incredibly lucky and convenient boar did.

 

She was written off as incompetent  in ACOK and tf?? How has she only commited a few mistakes in AFFC?? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, frenin said:

@Hugorfonics

Are joking right?? None of Cersei: s accomplishments are hers, she has always, always have too much luck or actually people firmly helping her to succeed.

As in her fathers wealth? Her sons influence or her husbands power? 

Sure. She played the hand she was dealt

1 hour ago, frenin said:

She didn't deal  with Ned, Petyr did.

Petyr? I think you mean Janos. Ned told Petyr to bribe Janos, not realizing that Cersei already pays him very well.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

She didn't deal  with Ned, Petyr did. For all the talk about Ned being incompetent, everything, absolutely everything had to go wrong so Cersei stood a chance and even then,

Neds incompetence was staggering. Mainly sending away the bulk of his personal guard. (Guarding the tourney, sending men with Beric, sending men with Yoren, sending men with Ladys bones! Lol, poor Lady Dustin)

1 hour ago, frenin said:

, had Ned being delivered the Golden Cloaks, she would've been killed.

I guess, had Ned delivered the Golden Company shed have been killed too, but thats kinda outside the realm of possibility (unless of course Ned replaced Slynt, like Tyrion did in his first week in KL)

Regardless, imprison Cersei and the red cloaks will be up in arms. Cersei made sure she stays strapped. Mel calls it the trappings of power, Cersei thinks of it as replacement for being uneasy

1 hour ago, frenin said:

She didn't deal  with Robert, and incredibly lucky and convenient boar did.

What? She spiked the punch. Lancel and Tyrek were nearby at all times sharpening their blades. Varys spoke plainly 

Quote

"The king's wine … did you question Lancel?"

"Oh, indeed. Cersei gave him the wineskins, and told him it was Robert's favorite vintage." The eunuch shrugged. "A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray … the forest is the abbatoir of the gods. It was not wine that killed the king. It was your mercy."

Ned had feared as much. "Gods forgive me."

Cersei knew how to play Robert and Ned, so she did

1 hour ago, frenin said:

She was written off as incompetent  in ACOK and tf??

Before agot started she scares away Stannis, before it ends she scares away Renly. 

When the lioness roars the beasts fall in line. Its not really intelligence, its the same tactics her fathers known for though, which is often construed for intelligence. But it aint stupid

1 hour ago, frenin said:

How has she only commited a few mistakes in AFFC?? 

Arming fundamentals is never good. 

But im a big fan of how she dealt with Loras and Margery.

Totally saw that backing out of Braavos was a bad deal, confirmed with Stannis' paycheck. Still, I liked the finesse 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

As in her fathers wealth? Her sons influence or her husbands power? 

Sure. She played the hand she was dealt

Ofc, she was given an umbeatable hand and so she won.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Petyr? I think you mean Janos. Ned told Petyr to bribe Janos, not realizing that Cersei already pays him very well.

When Cersei paid Janos?? Regardless, Petyr paid him even better and more importantly, Janos owes his life to LF. Janos was loyal to LF. not to Cersei.

No, i meant Petyr, Petyr was the one delivering the gold cloaks to Cersei.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Neds incompetence was staggering. Mainly sending away the bulk of his personal guard. (Guarding the tourney, sending men with Beric, sending men with Yoren, sending men with Ladys bones! Lol, poor Lady Dustin)

Hindsight tend to be everything, but unless Ned suspected that Cersei was having an affair and her kids are bastards and that he will need  every last one of his household guards because the King is dying un about 6 months. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I guess, had Ned delivered the Golden Company shed have been killed too, but thats kinda outside the realm of possibility (unless of course Ned replaced Slynt, like Tyrion did in his first week in KL)

Regardless, imprison Cersei and the red cloaks will be up in arms. Cersei made sure she stays strapped. Mel calls it the trappings of power, Cersei thinks of it as replacement for being uneasy

I really don't see how that is outside the realm of possibility, unless you think that there was no way in hel that LF gave his support to Ned. You seem to believe that Janos was in Cersei's pocket from the get go, he wasn't.

The red cloaks might be up in arms, they are heavily, heavily outnumbered.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

What? She spiked the punch. Lancel and Tyrek were nearby at all times sharpening their blades. Varys spoke plainly 

Cersei knew how to play Robert and Ned, so she did

Meh, that was the greatest hail mary the Lannisters pulled, with Renly's death being a close one.

Varys was guilt tripping Ned into confessing treason, do you believe Lance and Tyrek kingslayers?? Lmao, where was she going to find a wood adder??

Petyr and Varys knew how to play Robert and Ned, even Pycelle in some degree knew how to do it, Cersei is the one weirdly receiving the praises. It does remind me of Tywin receiving the praise of winning the Wot5k when everyone else just fucked it up and Tyrion excelled. 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Before agot started she scares away Stannis, before it ends she scares away Renly. 

When the lioness roars the beasts fall in line. Its not really intelligence, its the same tactics her fathers known for though, which is often construed for intelligence. But it aint stupid

She scares away Renly, that's true and the lioness mighty roar just served to give Renly the resolve to summon the greatest army Westeros has ever seen...

Stannis did not run away for Cersei, he didn't even run away since he stayed in KL after Arryn's death and only left because Robert did not give him what he felt as his, the Hand's office.

Had it been for her, the Lannister-Tyrell match, would have never been produced... Never said that she was stupid, there isn't a big change from AGOT Cersei to AFFC Cersei, since she was never that big of a deal in the first place, add to that, alcohollism and paranoia and... 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Arming fundamentals is never good. 

But im a big fan of how she dealt with Loras and Margery.

Totally saw that backing out of Braavos was a bad deal, confirmed with Stannis' paycheck. Still, I liked the finesse 

Arming the faith, granting offices to idiots, alienating the only reason the Lannisters are still alive not even in power, murdering the HS... 

Since how she deals with Marge comes to bit her in the ass and Loras is not the sharpest... well. i find hard to like the finesse.:rofl:

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Gregor is terrible, but hes a tortured soul, its reasonably fair to assume he has conflicting views on his life.

Mate, Gregor, not Sandor. How exactly is Gregor Clegane a tortured soul?

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cersei however has defeated every antagonist she has come across, shes made a few mistakes

A few mistakes???? Let's look at a few mistakes, off the top of my head:

  • Fucking Jaime, if she hadn't started fucking Jaime there wouldn't be any problem, it was incredibly stupid and vain of her.
  • Having children with Jaime, good now not only is your head on the line but your children's too
  • Aborting all her children with Robert. Having a dark haired child would have solved any problems she had of the twincest being discovered
  • Making the Starks her enemies when she had Lady killed for no reason.
  • Fucking Lancel. It's not enough that she is fucking Jaime, isn't it.
  • Trying to kill Robert in the dumbest fucking way possible.
  • Making Janos Slynt lord and granting him a council seat. Like just why? Tyrion did the sensible thing immediately with Slynt
  • Removing Barristan from the KG. Is she intentionally trying to delegitimize Joffrey.
  • Appointing Jaime Lord-Commander. The fucking Kingslayer?
  • Appointing Sandor to the KG. Again are you intentionally trying to delegitimize Joffrey.
  • Refusing to marry off Tommen and Myrcella. Does she understand alliances?
  • Her initial plot with the wildfire. It doesn't take a genius to realize that having hundreds of completely unprofessional soldiers handling wildfire will result in disaster.
  • Recalling Joffrey from the walls making the soldiers lose spirit. Again it doesn't take a genius to figure this shit out.
  • This one goes for the whole series but it's best put here, after the Blackwater. Constantly trying to fuck over Tyrion. Bitch he's your brother. Make him your ally. Same goes for Tywin here so in this regard they are alike.

And we haven't gotten to AFFC. This is just the shit she does before ASOS begins. In ASOS she doesn't do much as Tywin is the one in control and making all the decisions, though she does continue in fucking Tyrion over, eventually reaching Joff's murder were she of course blamed Tyrion resulting in the end with the Dornish being gone from the alliance for good and Tywin's death. Finally it's time to look at the steaming pile that is her decision making in AFFC.

  • Killing the goalers. Cersei starts the book of by doing something very very very stupid that is killing the only potential witnesses to Tyrion's escape.
  • Naming Daven Warden further alienating Kevan. Like I understand that Kevan was refusing to play by her book. And her decision to not give him power is kinda stupid given that he's 10 times more competent but still let's give her leeway when it comes to personal ambition. But naming Daven as Warden is both an insult and a failure to use a very qualified man.
  • Her council. For one thing she should have listened to Kevan's advice naming one of Mace's more unruly bannerman as Hand preferable Tarly or Rowan. For another the only competent person there is Qyburn and he's such a pariah that he's a very bad idea as well. The council is made of incompetent lickspites
  • Burning the Tower of the Hand. Does she want to look like the Mad King 2.0. ?
  • Resisting a marriage between Margery and Tommen. She does know that if the Tyrells rebel she's fucked right? Marriage is by far the best way to keep them in the fold.
  • Placing the Kettleblacks in positions of power. Why does she promote disloyal scum that come from Littlefinger.
  • Fucking Osney. Was it Osney? Or one of the other 2? Who knows.
  • Killing the HS. Great idea. It's not like if she was discovered the population of KL would probably riot and break the Red Keep.
  • Not only refusing to assist the NW but refusing to send them men. Is she actively trying to further legitimize Stannis for his choice to defend the NW?
  • Sending said men of no loyalty to man the new ships. Great idea what's the worst that could happen. It's not like disloyal ship crews have the tendency to go pirate. Bonus point for making a bastard of dubious loyalty and over whom you have no leverage have command of said ships.
  • Refusing to pay the Iron Bank. Do I need to explain this one?
  • Constantly trying to snub and fuck over the Tyrells. She does know that she needs them, right?
  • Attempting to kill Jon Snow. Again Jon Snow has a force of 1k men that's forced to fight wildlings. They can't do anything against her, and if it were found that she tried to kill him/had him killed then she would legitimize Stannis even more.
  • Refusing to help the Tyrells and holding back the Redwyne fleet when Euron attacks. This is so many different levels of stupid.
  • Trying to have Loras killed. If she get's her way, great she just killed a great hostage that was keeping the Tyrells in line. Brilliant. This is further amplified by:
  • Trying to have Margery killed. Cersei, for a moment consider what would happen if both Margery and Loras die by your hand. What would the revenge driven Tyrells with no reason to keep faith now do?
  • Arming the Faith. The faith is bloody pissed by the war, they despise you, they are defo against both incest and sleeping around and cannot help you against Stannis, so what the fuck are you thinking?
  • Going to the Sept just to gloat. Cersei, by now you know they have Lancel and he can spill the beans and you can guess Margery know her fair share, so why the fuck are you falling for the same trap Margaery did by going there willingly. They don't need lies to convict you, cause unlike Margery you are 100% guilty.

That's all I can think of. Can't wait for TWOW to see how she fucks up there.

We talked about this in another thread, bu she is very much like Agrippina. Except Agrippina could be smart and competent at times and knew what patience and playing the long game meant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Ofc, she was given an umbeatable hand and so she won.

Unbeatable? Shes not Goku. Jon Ned and Stannis all fell short

2 hours ago, frenin said:

When Cersei paid Janos??

Yes

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Regardless, Petyr paid him even better

Hes master of coin, Janos is a civil servant. Hes supposed to get paid largely from his job

2 hours ago, frenin said:

more importantly, Janos owes his life to LF.

Like Ser Dontos? 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Janos was loyal to LF. not to Cersei.

Citation please

2 hours ago, frenin said:

No, i meant Petyr, Petyr was the one delivering the gold cloaks to Cersei.

The gold cloaks hold the kings peace, Ned tried to arrest the king. Janos did his job.

Now Ned told Petyr to bribe Janos into gross treason with the promise of Petyrs money. Obviously, complications arose

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Hindsight tend to be everything, but unless Ned suspected that Cersei was having an affair and her kids are bastards and that he will need  every last one of his household guards because the King is dying un about 6 months. 

Ned suspected Cersei killed Jon, will kill Robert and might harm him.

Like when shit hits the fan, war is inevitable and his leg is broken, he sends his men off with Beric. You dont need hindsight to not be Eddard

2 hours ago, frenin said:

, do you believe Lance and Tyrek kingslayers??

Of course

2 hours ago, frenin said:

It does remind me of Tywin receiving the praise of winning the Wot5k when everyone else just fucked it up and Tyrion excelled. 

Similar. Agreed

2 hours ago, frenin said:

She scares away Renly, that's true and the lioness mighty roar just served to give Renly the resolve to summon the greatest army Westeros has ever seen...

Stannis did not run away for Cersei, he didn't even run away since he stayed in KL after Arryn's death and only left because Robert did not give him what he felt as his, the Hand's office.

When it became obvious that she would kill him he left. As for Renly he did nothing. Trappings of power is only good if you use it, not watch tourneys and eating peaches while a northern teenager fights his war

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Had it been for her, the Lannister-Tyrell match, would have never been produced... Never said that she was stupid, there isn't a big change from AGOT Cersei to AFFC Cersei, since she was never that big of a deal in the first place, add to that, alcohollism and paranoia and... 

The drinking doesnt help

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Arming the faith, granting offices to idiots

So the faith, bad short term, but long term not so much. Now all these fanatics will be anti Stannis, anti stark and anti young griff or any other pretender whos looking to abolish Tommen and his laws.

The offices are often idiotic, master of ships matters though and that was wisely not put in the hands of Reachmen. Still, Rivers bolted and may have become a pirate but if Cersei returns I think him and the fleet will too

3 hours ago, frenin said:

alienating the only reason the Lannisters are still alive not even in power

Ahh, Tyrion. I agree

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate, Gregor, not Sandor. How exactly is Gregor Clegane a tortured soul?

He drinks milk of the poppy instead of water. No chaser. Thats fucked up, straight heroin

 

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

A few mistakes???? Let's look at a few mistakes, off the top of my head:

  • Fucking Jaime, if she hadn't started fucking Jaime there wouldn't be any problem, it was incredibly stupid and vain of her.
  • Having children with Jaime, good now not only is your head on the line but your children's too
  • Aborting all her children with Robert. Having a dark haired child would have solved any problems she had of the twincest being discovered
  • Making the Starks her enemies when she had Lady killed for no reason.
  • Fucking Lancel. It's not enough that she is fucking Jaime, isn't it.
  • Trying to kill Robert in the dumbest fucking way possible.
  • Making Janos Slynt lord and granting him a council seat. Like just why? Tyrion did the sensible thing immediately with Slynt
  • Removing Barristan from the KG. Is she intentionally trying to delegitimize Joffrey.
  • Appointing Jaime Lord-Commander. The fucking Kingslayer?
  • Appointing Sandor to the KG. Again are you intentionally trying to delegitimize Joffrey.
  • Refusing to marry off Tommen and Myrcella. Does she understand alliances?
  • Her initial plot with the wildfire. It doesn't take a genius to realize that having hundreds of completely unprofessional soldiers handling wildfire will result in disaster.
  • Recalling Joffrey from the walls making the soldiers lose spirit. Again it doesn't take a genius to figure this shit out.
  • This one goes for the whole series but it's best put here, after the Blackwater. Constantly trying to fuck over Tyrion. Bitch he's your brother. Make him your ally. Same goes for Tywin here so in this regard they are alike.

And we haven't gotten to AFFC. This is just the shit she does before ASOS begins. In ASOS she doesn't do much as Tywin is the one in control and making all the decisions, though she does continue in fucking Tyrion over, eventually reaching Joff's murder were she of course blamed Tyrion resulting in the end with the Dornish being gone from the alliance for good and Tywin's death. Finally it's time to look at the steaming pile that is her decision making in AFFC.

  • Killing the goalers. Cersei starts the book of by doing something very very very stupid that is killing the only potential witnesses to Tyrion's escape.
  • Naming Daven Warden further alienating Kevan. Like I understand that Kevan was refusing to play by her book. And her decision to not give him power is kinda stupid given that he's 10 times more competent but still let's give her leeway when it comes to personal ambition. But naming Daven as Warden is both an insult and a failure to use a very qualified man.
  • Her council. For one thing she should have listened to Kevan's advice naming one of Mace's more unruly bannerman as Hand preferable Tarly or Rowan. For another the only competent person there is Qyburn and he's such a pariah that he's a very bad idea as well. The council is made of incompetent lickspites
  • Burning the Tower of the Hand. Does she want to look like the Mad King 2.0. ?
  • Resisting a marriage between Margery and Tommen. She does know that if the Tyrells rebel she's fucked right? Marriage is by far the best way to keep them in the fold.
  • Placing the Kettleblacks in positions of power. Why does she promote disloyal scum that come from Littlefinger.
  • Fucking Osney. Was it Osney? Or one of the other 2? Who knows.
  • Killing the HS. Great idea. It's not like if she was discovered the population of KL would probably riot and break the Red Keep.
  • Not only refusing to assist the NW but refusing to send them men. Is she actively trying to further legitimize Stannis for his choice to defend the NW?
  • Sending said men of no loyalty to man the new ships. Great idea what's the worst that could happen. It's not like disloyal ship crews have the tendency to go pirate. Bonus point for making a bastard of dubious loyalty and over whom you have no leverage have command of said ships.
  • Refusing to pay the Iron Bank. Do I need to explain this one?
  • Constantly trying to snub and fuck over the Tyrells. She does know that she needs them, right?
  • Attempting to kill Jon Snow. Again Jon Snow has a force of 1k men that's forced to fight wildlings. They can't do anything against her, and if it were found that she tried to kill him/had him killed then she would legitimize Stannis even more.
  • Refusing to help the Tyrells and holding back the Redwyne fleet when Euron attacks. This is so many different levels of stupid.
  • Trying to have Loras killed. If she get's her way, great she just killed a great hostage that was keeping the Tyrells in line. Brilliant. This is further amplified by:
  • Trying to have Margery killed. Cersei, for a moment consider what would happen if both Margery and Loras die by your hand. What would the revenge driven Tyrells with no reason to keep faith now do?
  • Arming the Faith. The faith is bloody pissed by the war, they despise you, they are defo against both incest and sleeping around and cannot help you against Stannis, so what the fuck are you thinking?
  • Going to the Sept just to gloat. Cersei, by now you know they have Lancel and he can spill the beans and you can guess Margery know her fair share, so why the fuck are you falling for the same trap Margaery did by going there willingly. They don't need lies to convict you, cause unlike Margery you are 100% guilty.

That's all I can think of. Can't wait for TWOW to see how she fucks up there.

Lol I dont think those were all mistakes, but you left out Bronn. And its Osmund. As in shes been fucking Lancel Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

We talked about this in another thread, bu she is very much like Agrippina. Except Agrippina could be smart and competent at times and knew what patience and playing the long game meant.

Which is why I think shes Livia, squashing all opposition as thoroughly as she could. 

Plus Agrrapina was born into this, and was only a thing because she had a weak husband and a weak son. Livias husband was famously not weak lol. Plus Livia only came in because of her fathers bank account and only stayed because she stole the throne like only her and Cersei Lannister can 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He drinks milk of the poppy instead of water. No chaser. Thats fucked up, straight heroin

I'm sorry but Gregor Clegane is not someone I can empathize with. Calling him human is a bit of a strech.

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Which is why I think shes Livia, squashing all opposition as thoroughly as she could.

Dunno how to say, but Cersei's modus operandi of kill everything doesn't really match with Livia, she was far more subtle. Also Livia and Augustus seem by all accounts to have had a loving or at least respectful relation. The one thing you forget about Livia is that almost everything she did she did either with Augustus's help or at his orders. Also it's doubtful Livia killed Augustus, the most prevalent theories are that he either killed himself or that his sickness just came back after the initial decline.

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Plus Agrrapina was born into this

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Plus Livia only came in because of her fathers bank account

Cersei didn't became queen due to Tywin paying for it, she became due to her blood as the daughter of one of the most powerful men in the kingdom. She didn't buy her throne with gold, but with Rhaenys's and Aegon's deaths.

All in all here's the list of similarities between Agripinna and Cersei:

  • Involved with 2 different kings/heirs (Rhaegar and Robert vs Caligula and Claudius)
  • The brother incest thing (Caligula and Agrippina)
  • Going a bit batshit later in life (say what you will about Livia she was forever patient and calculating unlike both Cersei and Agrippina)
  • Was the second option to the king/emperor after the first one had an affair (Lyanna vs Messalina)
  • Defo killed her husband when her son's succession came into question (Tiberius was clearly going to be emperor Livia didn't have to kill Augustus for it, Agrippina did however have to kill Claudius before Germanicus came of age)
  • Killing her husbands actual children after his death (Robert's many bastards vs Germancius)
  • Having a completely mental son (look at Joffrey who does he resemble more Nero or Tiberius?)
21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol I dont think those were all mistakes, but you left out Bronn. And its Osmund. As in shes been fucking Lancel Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy

Thanks!

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol I dont think those were all mistakes

Regardless of the maybe 1 or 2 that weren't mistakes she still did a metric ton of blunders (even before AFFC) out of pride and hubris (kinda like Tywin the more I think about it) the biggest ones being the twincest and screwing over Tyrion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Unbeatable? Shes not Goku. Jon Ned and Stannis all fell short

She isn't, but Goku could lose, Cersei couldn't. Jon was not deal by Cersei, neither Stannis and neither Ned. In fact Snannis was given an extra life by her mercy.

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes

The answer to when Cersei paid Janos, can't be yes. When Cersei has paid Janos before.

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hes master of coin, Janos is a civil servant. Hes supposed to get paid largely from his job

And for the bribes he received by LF's hand.  You know, coruption and all.

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like Ser Dontos? 

Nope, Ser Dontos don't owe his life to LF.

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The gold cloaks hold the kings peace, Ned tried to arrest the king. Janos did his job.

Now Ned told Petyr to bribe Janos into gross treason with the promise of Petyrs money. Obviously, complications arose

Since Ned was lord Regent and did not try to arrest the king until he was forced to, one might say that they already knew who their target was.

Now Ned told Petyr to bribe them and instead Petyr bribed them on Cersei's behalf.

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ned suspected Cersei killed Jon, will kill Robert and might harm him.

Like when shit hits the fan, war is inevitable and his leg is broken, he sends his men off with Beric. You dont need hindsight to not be Eddard

And not  of that would be relevant if Robert wouldn't have died when he did.

Was was not inevitable when Ned sends Beric to the Riverlands, War only becomes inevitable with Robert's and Ned's downfalls. 

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course

I also believe then that Tyrion is habdsome, one thing is drinking a king, the other is killing him with your own had. Nor Tyrek was made part of any plot.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

When it became obvious that she would kill him he left. As for Renly he did nothing. Trappings of power is only good if you use it, not watch tourneys and eating peaches while a northern teenager fights his war

No, he left because, and specifically because, he was not named Hand, he would've stayed otherwise, he never ever claims be afraid of his life when he left.

Ofc he did nothing, shadowbabies and all, still Westeros has never seen an army as great as his,, army that would've smashed any other and the lioness too.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So the faith, bad short term, but long term not so much. Now all these fanatics will be anti Stannis, anti stark and anti young griff or any other pretender whos looking to abolish Tommen and his laws.

The offices are often idiotic, master of ships matters though and that was wisely not put in the hands of Reachmen. Still, Rivers bolted and may have become a pirate but if Cersei returns I think him and the fleet will too

Sure they will be anti Stannis, the others... not so much. The Starks don¡t care about them and as long as YG or any other does not try to deal with them until having dealt with Tommen, she's also screwed.

Why was wisely not put in the hands of Reachmen?? Why would Aurane return??

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ahh, Tyrion. I agree

And the Tyrells.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/5/2020 at 2:51 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He himself mentions it several times in ASOS and I'm pretty sure that in ACOK it's part of the deal with Dorne (not sure on that one, I usually re-read ASOS, AFFC and ADWD).

Calm down there Robb. Tywin maybe many things but he is not a stupid person, and he understands the value of his word. Tywin wouldn't keep Gregor around just for shits and giggles, he had to have had some reason, I just can't think about one right now especially given how much Dorne could fuck things up.

Tywin kept Gregor around because he did what many men would not or should not, like rape, torture innocents, and murder of children. It’s not rocket science to see that those were Gregor’s only assets to Tywin. And yes Tywin is evil along with Gregor. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/6/2020 at 1:10 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

This is a fair point, but even if it is as you say, the letter of the promise wasn't broken but the spirit was. Tyrion clearly intended to give Gregor and it was more then likely understood the same way by Doran. As for Tywin not caring, there are 2 things to remember. 1. The Dornish can drag a guerrilla warfare for years if not decades, they showed that twice already, and 2. The Dornish throwing their support as a great house to any other pretender be it Stannis, Myrcella or Dany could very easily trigger another massive civil war.

Spirit doesn't count in diplomacy, however. Only words. This is why diplomats use very vague wording themselves while trying to pin their counterparts to very specific language.

The Dornish can drag guerilla warfare out for decades in Dorne. They can't do it much beyond the marches in the stormlands and Reach. And they certainly don't have the might to overcome the Tyrells to install either Stannis or Myrcella as king or queen. Dany is not even on anyone's radar yet.

So all in all, it was a pretty crafty move. The Martells cannot accuse Tywin of going back on his word because all he and Tyrion ever promised them was "justice", not Gregor. And in the end, they did hand over Gregor's head, perhaps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/6/2020 at 5:33 PM, frenin said:

That's not what Tywin wants tho.

Tywin himself does not want the Martells to be pissed because they might side  with Stannis and prolong  the war for years. And had the Martells decide to take Robb's way, he is certainly in trouble.

 

"Well and good," announced Pycelle. "Let Stannis rot in Lys, I say. We are well rid of the man and his ambitions."
"Did you turn into an utter fool when Tyrion shaved your beard? This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some. If he is gone, it can only mean he intends to resume the war. Most likely he will land at Storm's End and try and rouse the storm lords. If so, he's finished. But a bolder man might roll the dice for Dorne. If he should win Sunspear to his cause, he might prolong this war for years. So we will not offend the Martells any further, for any reason. The Dornishmen are free to go, and you will heal Ser Gregor."
And so the Mountain screamed, day and night. Lord Tywin Lannister could cow even the Stranger, it would seem.

 

Btw I never really understood from where Tywin gets Oberyn knows nothing. 

 

Gods, I hope not. "Wars and weddings have kept us well occupied, Prince Oberyn. I fear no one has yet had the time to look into murders sixteen years stale, dreadful as they were. We shall, of course, just as soon as we may. Any help that Dorne might be able to provide to restore the king's peace would only hasten the beginning of my lord father's inquiry—"
"Dwarf," said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, "spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools? My brother is not a bloodthirsty man, but neither has he been asleep for sixteen years. Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more. I did not come for some mummer's show of an inquiry. I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane . . . but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity That Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that." He smiled. "An old septon once claimed I was living proof of the goodness of the gods. Do you know why that is, Imp?"

 

"Men are seldom as they appear. You look so very guilty that I am convinced of your innocence. Still, you will likely be condemned. Justice is in short supply this side of the mountains. There has been none for Elia, Aegon, or Rhaenys. Why should there be any for you? Perhaps Joffrey's real killer was eaten by a bear. That seems to happen quite often in King's Landing. Oh, wait, the bear was at Harrenhal, now I remember."
"Is that the game we are playing?" Tyrion rubbed at his scarred nose. He had nothing to lose by telling Oberyn the truth. "There was a bear at Harrenhal, and it did kill Ser Amory Lorch."
"How sad for him," said the Red Viper. "And for you. Do all noseless men lie so badly, I wonder?"

 

 

 

Tywin does not want to deliver Gregor because he is his mad  dog and is confident, to the point of idiocy, that the Martells are easy to placate. It reminds me of Cersei saying that "If a head can placate the Prince of Dorne, a couple of heads is more than enough to placate some fat  northern lord."

OK, but the first quote is after Oberyn has died and after Clegane confessed his guilt before the court. So there is no use covering for him anymore.

The second quotes back up Tywin's point to Tyrion: Oberyn knows nothing. He has heard tales. If Jon Arryn dropped Gregor's name, that would still be just tales because Arryn does not know anything -- he wasn't even in King's Landing at the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

OK, but the first quote is after Oberyn has died and after Clegane confessed his guilt before the court. So there is no use covering for him anymore.

The second quotes back up Tywin's point to Tyrion: Oberyn knows nothing. He has heard tales. If Jon Arryn dropped Gregor's name, that would still be just tales because Arryn does not know anything -- he wasn't even in King's Landing at the time.

There was no use covering for him before, but Tywin wanted to find a loophole.

 

It does not back Tywin, at all, Oberyn makes very clear that he knows who did the deed and knows who is behind all that. Jon Arryn wasn't at KL, he was there when Tywin presented  the bodies and he was there when Robert and Ned argued about punishing Tywin and his men for the deed, so the idea that he knows nothing is a little off. And they did not only question  old Jon, a hundred more... That's more than enough to form  a very informed  opinion, the only thing in what Tywin was right is that the Martells lacked of evidence... But the idea of them not knowing what was going on is just stupid hubris.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate, Gregor, not Sandor. How exactly is Gregor Clegane a tortured soul?

We don't have Gregor's backstory, so we have no idea what kind of psycho-sexual torture he endured as a child to make him what he is today.

Sandor was a heartless murdering prick as well, then we found out what happened to his face and he gradually became more human -- not a saint by any means, but a human.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

There was no use covering for him before, but Tywin wanted to find a loophole.

 

It does not back Tywin, at all, Oberyn makes very clear that he knows who did the deed and knows who is behind all that. Jon Arryn wasn't at KL, he was there when Tywin presented  the bodies and he was there when Robert and Ned argued about punishing Tywin and his men for the deed, so the idea that he knows nothing is a little off. And they did not only question  old Jon, a hundred more... That's more than enough to form  a very informed  opinion, the only thing in what Tywin was right is that the Martells lacked of evidence... But the idea of them not knowing what was going on is just stupid hubris.

Well, the reason for covering for him was exactly as Tywin said: no man strikes more fear in their enemies than Ser Gregor. That counts a lot when you see the Mountain that Rides bearing down on you in the first charge.

And evidence, not opinions, informed or otherwise, counts in court, just as it does today. Oberyn or Doran can say so-and-so said, I heard such-and-such, but without proof they have no leg to stand on. And sorry, but anything that Arryn heard or thinks he knows is little better -- just more hearsay.

Was this hubris on Tywin's part? You bet. Virtually everything the man does is based on hubris. But this was the thinking. He can keep his mad dog and at least maintain peace with the Martells if not their outright military support. Doran is cautious to the point of indolence, so Tywin is on pretty safe ground that as long as he can stick to his story there won't be any trouble from Dorne. All that changes, however, when Oberyn was killed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, the reason for covering for him was exactly as Tywin said: no man strikes more fear in their enemies than Ser Gregor. That counts a lot when you see the Mountain that Rides bearing down on you in the first charge.

I know the reason of it but as Tyrion points out, Gregor is not worth Dorne.

 

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 And evidence, not opinions, informed or otherwise, counts in court, just as it does today. Oberyn or Doran can say so-and-so said, I heard such-and-such, but without proof they have no leg to stand on. And sorry, but anything that Arryn heard or thinks he knows is little better -- just more hearsay.

Evidence serves to show what can you prove but it does not necessary serves to show what you know.  Tywin assuming that Oberyn does not know anything is simply ludicrous, Stannis did not have evidence of the bastardy, thay doesn't mean he didn't know the truth. Since you don't know what Arryn knows or think you know this is just pointless.

 

 

13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Was this hubris on Tywin's part? You bet. Virtually everything the man does is based on hubris. But this was the thinking. He can keep his mad dog and at least maintain peace with the Martells if not their outright military support. Doran is cautious to the point of indolence, so Tywin is on pretty safe ground that as long as he can stick to his story there won't be any trouble from Dorne. All that changes, however, when Oberyn was killed.

And that was stupid, Tywin himself knows that Oberyn is not Tywin and outright calls him half mad, why in the Earth should he keep tempting his luck?? Because he's Tywin. I wonder what would've happened if everything run its course and Oberyn won the duel, how would Oberyn react to have been lied to his face?? Ofc Tywin is wary later. Tywin was not on a safe ground, since he wasn't treating Doran but then again...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, frenin said:

I know the reason of it but as Tyrion points out, Gregor is not worth Dorne.

 

Evidence serves to show what can you prove but it does not necessary serves to show what you know.  Tywin assuming that Oberyn does not know anything is simply ludicrous, Stannis did not have evidence of the bastardy, thay doesn't mean he didn't know the truth. Since you don't know what Arryn knows or think you know this is just pointless.

 

 

And that was stupid, Tywin himself knows that Oberyn is not Tywin and outright calls him half mad, why in the Earth should he keep tempting his luck?? Because he's Tywin. I wonder what would've happened if everything run its course and Oberyn won the duel, how would Oberyn react to have been lied to his face?? Ofc Tywin is wary later. Tywin was not on a safe ground, since he wasn't treating Doran but then again...

 

But Tyrion has it wrong here. It's not a question of either Gregor or Dorne. With the cover story that Tywin crafted, it was very likely they would have both, which Tyrion comes to realize after Tywin explains it all to him.

Stannis made his accusation against Cersei, and those who supported him believed it while those who didn't thought it was self-serving claptrap. The whole world didn't demand Joffrey hand over his crown just on Stannis' say-so. Doran or Oberyn can very well accuse Tywin of breaking his word, but if all they have is an offer of "justice", then it's going to fall flat. Likewise, if all they have is scuttlebutt and hearsay regarding Elia and the children, then they are not going to get anywhere. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bothered with all of this alliance stuff and attending Joffrey's wedding. They would have just marched into the throneroom, announced that they "know" Gregor did it on Tywin's orders, and demanded their heads. Court is a tricksy thing. You have to be able to prove what you are saying, especially when it is something of this magnitude.

I think the real question here is not why Tywin covered for Gregor, but why Tywin agreed to let Gregor defend Cersei in the TBC? This is a lose-lose for him because either his top man is going to die, or the Prince of Dorne is. So rather than put these two together, it probably would have been better to put in Trant, Swann or even Blount (which would be the easiest way to get Tyrion off, and I'm certain Tywin knows Tyrion is innocent). Then, there is every likelihood that Oberyn would not bother defending the Imp at all, and before long most of the other Dornish will return home leaving him pretty much alone in the capital, with Gregor far away in Harenhal or marching north to Winterfell.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But Tyrion has it wrong here. It's not a question of either Gregor or Dorne. With the cover story that Tywin crafted, it was very likely they would have both, which Tyrion comes to realize after Tywin explains it all to him.

Ofc that Tyrion comes to realize that, Tywin categorically affirms him that Oberyn does not know nothing and Tyrion believes him, forgetting  his own conversation with Oberyn. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Stannis made his accusation against Cersei, and those who supported him believed it while those who didn't thought it was self-serving claptrap. The whole world didn't demand Joffrey hand over his crown just on Stannis' say-so. Doran or Oberyn can very well accuse Tywin of breaking his word, but if all they have is an offer of "justice", then it's going to fall flat. Likewise, if all they have is scuttlebutt and hearsay regarding Elia and the children, then they are not going to get anywhere. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bothered with all of this alliance stuff and attending Joffrey's wedding. They would have just marched into the throneroom, announced that they "know" Gregor did it on Tywin's orders, and demanded their heads. Court is a tricksy thing. You have to be able to prove what you are saying, especially when it is something of this magnitude.

You're goalposting so i'll repeat again.

 

"Evidence serves to show what can you prove but it does not necessary serves to show what you know.  Tywin assuming that Oberyn does not know anything is simply ludicrous, Stannis did not have evidence of the bastardy, thay doesn't mean he didn't know the truth. Since you don't know what Arryn knows or think you know this is just pointless"

 

It's not remotely the same saying, "A has no proof" than saying "A has no knowledge whatsoever".

 

 

23 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I think the real question here is not why Tywin covered for Gregor, but why Tywin agreed to let Gregor defend Cersei in the TBC? This is a lose-lose for him because either his top man is going to die, or the Prince of Dorne is. So rather than put these two together, it probably would have been better to put in Trant, Swann or even Blount (which would be the easiest way to get Tyrion off, and I'm certain Tywin knows Tyrion is innocent). Then, there is every likelihood that Oberyn would not bother defending the Imp at all, and before long most of the other Dornish will return home leaving him pretty much alone in the capital, with Gregor far away in Harenhal or marching north to Winterfell.  

Because Tywin wants to see Tyrion dead and is idiot enough to let Cersei do her thing.

 

 

Lost my interest  in this already. So, see you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But Tyrion has it wrong here. It's not a question of either Gregor or Dorne. With the cover story that Tywin crafted, it was very likely they would have both

No they wouldn't. The Martells know the truth all too well. They might be forced to accept Armory from a strictly legal point of view but they would forever be plotting for revenge and try to get it t the first possible time. Giving them Gregor and the truth might (emphasis on might) placate the Dornish enough to make the keep faith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, frenin said:

Ofc that Tyrion comes to realize that, Tywin categorically affirms him that Oberyn does not know nothing and Tyrion believes him, forgetting  his own conversation with Oberyn. 

 

 

You're goalposting so i'll repeat again.

 

"Evidence serves to show what can you prove but it does not necessary serves to show what you know.  Tywin assuming that Oberyn does not know anything is simply ludicrous, Stannis did not have evidence of the bastardy, thay doesn't mean he didn't know the truth. Since you don't know what Arryn knows or think you know this is just pointless"

 

It's not remotely the same saying, "A has no proof" than saying "A has no knowledge whatsoever".

 

 

Because Tywin wants to see Tyrion dead and is idiot enough to let Cersei do her thing.

 

 

Lost my interest  in this already. So, see you.

Sorry, but Tyrion is not forgetting anything. He is acknowledging that Tywin's plan may work because whether Oberyn "knows" anything or not is irrelevant. Without proof, there is nothing he can do about it. If Doran and Oberyn were able to act against Tywin just because they know what happened, they would have done so years ago, not waited undercover like they have. Remember, they don't want to just kill Gregor and Tywin, they want to expose them as tyrants and child-murderers. The first step was getting Clegane to admit he did it, which is why Oberyn kept at him even when Gregor was on the ground. The next step was to get him to admit that Tywin ordered him to do so.

So when Tywin says Oberyn knows nothing, he is not saying it in the literal sense but the figurative sense. Oberyn knows nothing that he can prove -- and that is all that matters here.

Tywin did not want Tyrion dead. Even after the TbC, Tywin was going to offer Tyrion the black:

Quote

"This escape is folly. You are not to be killed, if that is what you fear. It's still my intent to send you to the Wall, but I could not do it without Lord Tyrell's consent."

Tywin is not an idiot and he knows that Tyrion is not an idiot either. There is no way Tyrion would hatch a plan with Sansa in which he kills the king, she makes a clean getaway, and Tyrion is left holding the murder weapon with his mouth agape. More than likely, he already suspects the Tyrells because they were the ones trying to get Sansa in the first place.

So my guess is that allowing Cersei to first announce that Clegane would be her champion before Tyrion even called for a TBC was insurance that Tyrion would not call for one, or if he did no one would fight for him. Once Oberyn stepped up, however, Tywin could not overrule Cersei because it would seem like he was afraid to let her champion face the Red Viper. So he misjudged the situation, but that doesn't make him an idiot.

Nice chatting with you, though. :cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...