U.S. Politics: By Gawd King, That's Joe Biden's Music!!!!

[Fragile Bird]

Larry Kudlow is on CNBC now. Remember when he was appointed we had a lot of discussion about what an idiot it is, and how he was regularly wrong about everything?

He is saying even considering economic stimulus is panic talk. And there’s welfare and food stamps if people lose jobs.

eta: holy geez, if you are healthy you should go to work. None of this nanmby-pamby work at home crap for him!

And ‘millions of test kits are going out’. Dr. F this morning said 75,000, not millions.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

The Dow opened down 800 despite a monster jobs report from February. This slide is far from over.

[Rippounet]

59 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I disagree because what is driving this is a virus, not a flaws in regulations.

I think it hardly matters what is driving this tbh. A crisis has been in the making for some time now, and it can legitimately be asked whether we all want to live in fear of the markets. And Sanders is now the only candidate that has been asking this kind of question. He'd have to slightly alter his message of course (focusing on reasonable ways to avoid or mitigate economic crises), but it should be far easier for him than anyone else. With 2008 still fresh in everyone's mind, he has a way to benefit from this.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

When is Biden going to get his supporters under control? 

Liz Warren recently told Rachel Maddow right after she dropped out that Bernie is responsible for his nastiest supporters. Bernie mentioned to Maddow the night before this interview that he was aghast at the attacks on Warren, and when Maddow kept pushing, he said, you should talk to Nina Turner about the toxicity from other camps. Considering Nina Turner has long taught black American history (and the white woman in this clip is just flat out either lying or has no clue what MLKjr said), I bet she found this exchange far more insulting than some Warren/Biden/Buttigeg/Klobuchar troll saying shitty things to her on social media.

I find this clip to be pretty upsetting. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

10 hours ago, DMC said:

 

Again, this is where your assumption pisses me off.  No one left of, I dunno, Frum or Romney, is doing so "hatefully."  We just disagree with the way to actually get it done.  "My name is Shay and I'm from New Rochelle, and I just don't understand, why you so mad?"

 

Well, I'm talking personal experience here. I've been posting on these board(s) since the old board, and people I've long known and liked around here have escalated the anger and cheap shots and anger when I make an observation they don't agree with. An example of that would be when I mentioned in the last thread that if Biden wins the nom, I fear Sanders supporters will sit out this time. A poster I've known a long time around here and often found funny and insightful unloaded on me saying I am the problem because I just said I was going to take my ball and go home. I think anyone who frequents these threads knows I've always said Trump is the biggest enemy. 

For the first time in the 15 years I've been on this board, I had to figure out how to put people on ignore because some of their comments about my support of Bernie were so derogatory that my time here (which like as you said before is a place for us to get away from the monotony of daily life) was affecting me in negative ways.

There's a lot of places I could go to post thoughts about how I feel about the modern U.S. political system, but I suppose this is just it--I've been here talking to people for nearly two decades about all kinds of things, so I've formed connections with people here (and in a fairly anonymous way as I try not to bring these things up to my face to face friends and colleagues because the divide is so sharp between us now, someone will get pissed if I mention I like Sanders). It is vitriolic. It is condescending, and it doesn't matter if someone says to me, "When we say Bernie Bros we don't mean you," as if that is supposed to make me feel better. I find it incredibly dismissive, to be frank, that a small minority of his supporters are focused on as the problem while his large, diverse coalition who just wants a better shot are completely dismissed and ignored in this process. 

Also.............I don't know the quote you put. What's it from? 

Edit: Otherwise, sincerity mode now terminated. Back to sarcastic asshole.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Oh, and India has just announced it is withholding 10% of the raw materials used in the manufacture of drugs that it exports because they have to think about the people of India first.

Could you cite where this is from?

[mormont]

Sanders cancels rally in Jackson, Mississipi to focus on Michigan.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/us/politics/bernie-sanders-democratic-primary.html
 

Quote

 

After holding a rally in Phoenix on Thursday night, Mr. Sanders had been scheduled to travel to Jackson on Friday for a rally focused on racial justice.

The change in plans suggests that Mr. Sanders will not challenge Mr. Biden for the support of black voters in the South — a vital base in the Democratic Party — and is instead going all-in on the Midwest as he tries to compete with Mr. Biden for working-class voters there. 

 

 

[Fragile Bird]

9 minutes ago, Raja said:

Could you cite where this is from?

It was reported this morning on CNBC. When Pompeo came on he was asked about it and he just shrugged and said something like ‘ it’s perfectly understandable that people are going to do things that are in the best interests of their country’. He didn’t seem surprised or question it, so I assume it’s true and he already knew about it.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, mormont said:

Sanders cancels rally in Jackson, Mississipi to focus on Michigan.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/us/politics/bernie-sanders-democratic-primary.html
 

 

I have always found it a bit odd that Sanders never could break through with African American voters. You’d think his message would resonate more.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I have always found it a bit odd that Sanders never could break through with African American voters. You’d think his message would resonate more.

I'm curious to see how a contested left vs center primary would unfold without a candidate with very strong ties to the African American community, as was the case for Obama in 08 and then, through their connection to Obama, Clinton & Biden in 16 & 20. In Clinton's case there are also her and Bill's preexisting strong ties to the AA community. Are these ties what's driving their overwhelming support or are AA voters just by-and-large more on board with the moderate argument? Maybe we'll find out four years from now. One thing to consider is that there is an age divide among AA voters as with other demographics, with Bernie doing better with younger AA voters and even winning among AA voters under 30. 

[Ran]

Five Thirty Eight updated its forecast. Now has Biden at 7 in 8 to have a majority, no majority at 1 in 10, Sanders majority at 1 in 50.

[sologdin]

Quote

 someone will get pissed if I mention I like Sanders). It is vitriolic. It is condescending, and it doesn't matter if someone says to me, "When we say Bernie Bros we don't mean you," as if that is supposed to make me feel better. I find it incredibly dismissive, to be frank, that a small minority of his supporters are focused on as the problem while his large, diverse coalition who just wants a better shot are completely dismissed and ignored in this process. 

the notion that a candidate is vicariously liable for that candidate's alleged supporters has always been difficult to take seriously.  maybe imputing to the candidate those acts of that candidate's campaign workers taken within the course of their employment threrewith is reasonable. But this is even more attenuated--the corollary liability of a candidate's supporters for the acts of other alleged supporters.  i suppose the theory must be based on the following inept syllogism:

a) the act of any alleged supporter of a candidate is imputed automatically to the candidate, who is vicariously liable by virtue of respondeat superior for all acts of alleged supporters of the candidate.

b) each supporter is liable for all acts of the candidate they support, including vicarious acts, as they are not permitted to mitigate their support or disagree with any specific policy preference or conduct thereof while maintaining their support generally.

_________________

ergo, each alleged supporter of the candidate is vicariously liable for the acts of each and every other alleged supporter of the candidate, including the mise en abyme of being vicariously liable for the mutual vicarious liability of each other, ad infinitum.

 

[Maithanet]

19 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

It is vitriolic. It is condescending, and it doesn't matter if someone says to me, "When we say Bernie Bros we don't mean you," as if that is supposed to make me feel better. I find it incredibly dismissive, to be frank, that a small minority of his supporters are focused on as the problem while his large, diverse coalition who just wants a better shot are completely dismissed and ignored in this process.

Political discourse is getting harsher in this country, and it sucks.  Trump is both a cause and a symptom of this.  I am sorry that you feel that members of the board have treated you unfairly, becuase I do feel like this is a good place for discussing political issues and hope that continues. 

I want to tell a related story about the BernieBros thing.  I play ultimate frisbee competitively, and that is an unusual sport in that it is self-refereed.  Every player on the field calls their own fouls, not a ref.  Because there is no ref.  At the highest level, you have an "observer" who will adjudicate disputes when players disagree, but even then, you call your own fouls.  This is governed by "Spirit of the Game", which is in the actual rulebook, and is an ethos that players will never intentionally cheat, never intentionally foul and will try at all times to play fairly with a spirit of good will towards competitors.  Most of the time this works well. 

But not always.  Different people have different ideas of how physically you are supposed to play.  And some people are just assholes, and that only gets worse when they're playing a competitive sport.  One thing I've learned is that how "spirited" a team is equal to how "spirited" their least "spirited" player is.  And I can say with experience that it SUCKS when someone on your team calls a terrible foul or makes a really dangerous play that could hurt someone.  You can call your teammate out on the spot, but sometimes that just makes a bad situation worse.  You can talk with them later, but that isn't going to make the situation any better now.  Or you can do nothing and accept that you can't control other people's actions.  But whichever you pick it is shitty, because the anger the other team is feeling is spread across the whole team, not just the one asshole player.  Always.  By far the best way to avoid this situation is to not play on teams with players you know to be assholes.  And there have been good teams, with a bunch of my friends, that I have chosen not to play with, just because I know that a certain guy is on it, and I don't want to be wearing the same jersey as him whenever he does something terrible.

The Berniebros situation is similar, but even harder to deal with.  If you are a supporter of a candidate, there are inevitably going to be assholes on your side.  But the internet discourse of the 2016 Sanders vs Clinton campaign got really ugly, and there was a very vocal contingent of Sanders supporters (BernieBros) who fully embraced the most sexist attacks possible on Clinton.  I suspect that most of them then voted Trump because misogny.  We now know that these people were also encouraged and egged on by Russian propagandists seeking to weaken Clinton and America.  I do think that Sanders and his campaign were very silent/tolerant about those kinds of sexist attacks back in 2016, and even when he did more to address it in 2020, the perception was already set.  And whether fair or not those BernieBros have a totally outsized influence on the larger perception of Sanders supporters, even though I agree with you they are a small percentage of all Sanders supporters on the internet. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, OnionAhaiReborn said:

I'm curious to see how a contested left vs center primary would unfold without a candidate with very strong ties to the African American community, as was the case for Obama in 08 and then, through their connection to Obama, Clinton & Biden in 16 & 20. In Clinton's case there are also her and Bill's preexisting strong ties to the AA community. Are these ties what's driving their overwhelming support or are AA voters just by-and-large more on board with the moderate argument? Maybe we'll find out four years from now. One thing to consider is that there is an age divide among AA voters as with other demographics, with Bernie doing better with younger AA voters and even winning among AA voters under 30. 

With the preface that they’re not a monolithic voting bloc, the black vote tends to be hyper pragmatic. Picking a winner matters more than getting the person you’re most ideologically aligned with.

[GrimTuesday]

Some asshole brought a Nazi flag to a Bernie rally in Arizona yesterday, and it isn't even going to get a fraction of the play the snake emoji thing got.

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Some asshole brought a Nazi flag to a Bernie rally in Arizona yesterday, and it isn't even going to get a fraction of the play the snake emoji thing got.

Out of curiosity, what do you think should be the "play" from this?  Because IMO bringing a Nazi flag to a Sanders rally is a very confusing political statement, which makes it harder to react to.  In more or less descending likelihood:

1.  It could be a threat (the Nazis are coming for all you liberals).

2.  It could be a protest (you guys are like Nazis in your embrace of big govt).

3.  It could be a false flag (Nazis like Sanders, he must be terrible)

4.  It could be an actual show of support (we Nazis are with you, because Nazis support MFA?  I'll admit this seems unlikely.)

[Fez]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

With the preface that they’re not a monolithic voting bloc, the black vote tends to be hyper pragmatic. Picking a winner matters more than getting the person you’re most ideologically aligned with.

In general, especially regarding older black voters, I think they are more pragmatic, more moderate, and more systems-orientated than most Democratic voters.

What I mean by that last one is that they see the levers of the Democratic Party and the rules of Congress as a way to protect themselves and improve their communities. For instance, any time there's a push for Congressional Democrats to institute term limits on committee chairs (like Republicans do) or to not rely solely on seniority as the criteria for obtaining chairs, the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) is always the first to oppose the push. There's a lot of CBC members that have been in Congress for a long time, saw how white Democrats (and Republicans) used those chairs to benefit their districts and push policies they wanted, and want to be able to do the same to help their communities. And because most CBC members are in incredibly safe districts, a lot of them do build up the seniority to have those chairs. Which leads them to see efforts to change things (often pushed by liberal white reformers) as an attempt to undercut black political power; and their voters side with them.

[mormont]

14 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Some asshole brought a Nazi flag to a Bernie rally in Arizona yesterday, and it isn't even going to get a fraction of the play the snake emoji thing got.

This would not be my main concern from such an incident. 

[OnionAhaiReborn]

12 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Out of curiosity, what do you think should be the "play" from this?  Because IMO bringing a Nazi flag to a Sanders rally is a very confusing political statement, which makes it harder to react to.  In more or less descending likelihood:

1.  It could be a threat (the Nazis are coming for all you liberals).

2.  It could be a protest (you guys are like Nazis in your embrace of big govt).

3.  It could be a false flag (Nazis like Sanders, he must be terrible)

4.  It could be an actual show of support (we Nazis are with you, because Nazis support MFA?  I'll admit this seems unlikely.)

I don't think it's a confusing statement at all. Bernie Sanders is Jewish and someone brought a Nazi flag to one of his rallies. Not a lot of room for interpretation here unless you're really determined to avoid the obvious conclusion that it's an expression of anti-semitism directed at a Jewish candidate for President. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

38 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Political discourse is getting harsher in this country, and it sucks.  Trump is both a cause and a symptom of this.  I am sorry that you feel that members of the board have treated you unfairly, becuase I do feel like this is a good place for discussing political issues and hope that continues. 

I want to tell a related story about the BernieBros thing.  I play ultimate frisbee competitively, and that is an unusual sport in that it is self-refereed.  Every player on the field calls their own fouls, not a ref.  Because there is no ref.  At the highest level, you have an "observer" who will adjudicate disputes when players disagree, but even then, you call your own fouls.  This is governed by "Spirit of the Game", which is in the actual rulebook, and is an ethos that players will never intentionally cheat, never intentionally foul and will try at all times to play fairly with a spirit of good will towards competitors.  Most of the time this works well. 

But not always.  Different people have different ideas of how physically you are supposed to play.  And some people are just assholes, and that only gets worse when they're playing a competitive sport.  One thing I've learned is that how "spirited" a team is equal to how "spirited" their least "spirited" player is.  And I can say with experience that it SUCKS when someone on your team calls a terrible foul or makes a really dangerous play that could hurt someone.  You can call your teammate out on the spot, but sometimes that just makes a bad situation worse.  You can talk with them later, but that isn't going to make the situation any better now.  Or you can do nothing and accept that you can't control other people's actions.  But whichever you pick it is shitty, because the anger the other team is feeling is spread across the whole team, not just the one asshole player.  Always.  By far the best way to avoid this situation is to not play on teams with players you know to be assholes.  And there have been good teams, with a bunch of my friends, that I have chosen not to play with, just because I know that a certain guy is on it, and I don't want to be wearing the same jersey as him whenever he does something terrible.

The Berniebros situation is similar, but even harder to deal with.  If you are a supporter of a candidate, there are inevitably going to be assholes on your side.  But the internet discourse of the 2016 Sanders vs Clinton campaign got really ugly, and there was a very vocal contingent of Sanders supporters (BernieBros) who fully embraced the most sexist attacks possible on Clinton.  I suspect that most of them then voted Trump because misogny.  We now know that these people were also encouraged and egged on by Russian propagandists seeking to weaken Clinton and America.  I do think that Sanders and his campaign were very silent/tolerant about those kinds of sexist attacks back in 2016, and even when he did more to address it in 2020, the perception was already set.  And whether fair or not those BernieBros have a totally outsized influence on the larger perception of Sanders supporters, even though I agree with you they are a small percentage of all Sanders supporters on the internet. 

I agree with you. And I want to say, I have not (always/ever?) responded well when things get heated, so I do not mean to villainize anyone, I just wanted to share my experience. People on this board are often very thoughtful and intelligent, so it likely hurts me more than if this were a Reddit thread.

I like your analogy, it makes a lot of sense. You have to believe people are playing fair and following the rules (we know many Republicans are not), so I can see too, why some supporters of Saint Bernard feel like nefarious things are going on behind the scenes (how true or not true that is, I can't say because I've certainly experienced this feeling) since it is so clearly happening on one side of this two sided system. The Bros who are sexist and hateful are not people I will ever associate with. I haven't run into a lot of these people in everyday life (though I know they're out there), but if I did, they would be people I could not sustain any kind of relationship. And just like with Clinton supporters who I have run into on the Internet (and a bit in life--but there are logical reasons for this given my area of work, not that there are more of them) who degrade any supporter of Sanders as a misogynist who I do not hold as representative of the Clinton movement, nor do I think its fair to the vast majority of Sanders' movement to be mostly identified by their incendiary fringes. And not to say that this is something people say "All Bernie supporters are this way," but the disproportionate attention they get is deflating.

I don't know that Bernie was less vocal in 2016 either. I remember getting a number of emails from the campaign condemning the hatred of some members of the following, and saying that we (as fellow supporters) can't stand up for this. I don't remember how he addressed this publicly, but I do remember him being upset by this back then.

Either way, those are not the supporters we have to convince to vote for Biden. There is a much larger base that truly feels this process has been unfair to them, and they need to feel validated and heard for them to help defeat Trump. I don't know how to do this, except that I personally will do my part at all the local socialist meetings I attend here. I am just truly worried about Biden in the general. I do think he brings so much baggage it will turn people off. I was listening to a clip from him in 2016 talking about Bernie's popularity, and he was thoughtful, considerate, and supportive of both Clinton and Sanders. But more than this, he was so coherent, and to hear him today, it's scary to see such a drastic decline.