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Ser Leftwich

Have posters actually read the books?

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26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

All very true. Sadly, there’s a trend to turn any thread into a Stark Hate Thread, and that certainly takes a lot of joy out of the whole experience. As you said, we all have our faves and characters we don’t really like that much. And that’s totally fine. That’s part of the beauty of the world Martin created, there’s something for everyone, and enough mysteries to keep us all busy. 

Funnily enough, you don’t see Stark fans viciously hating on Targs... I wonder why. :dunno:

Oh, I hadn't noticed it being Targ fans specifically, I've mostly noticed the Anti-Arya (and Bran) sentiment from "House Stark" fans who really only loves one specific Stark, and thinks it's "so sad" that Arya is "so far gone" or is "doomed to die" and that "Bran will turn into a tree".
The Targ vs Stark thing seems to go both ways, but idk, I stay out of it

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10 minutes ago, AryaRegina said:

Oh, I hadn't noticed it being Targ fans specifically, I've mostly noticed the Anti-Arya (and Bran) sentiment from "House Stark" fans who really only loves one specific Stark, and thinks it's "so sad" that Arya is "so far gone" or is "doomed to die" and that "Bran will turn into a tree".
The Targ vs Stark thing seems to go both ways, but idk, I stay out of it

try being a Sansa fan

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

try being a Sansa fan

?
She seems to be well liked on this forum? Thankfully the dudebros from a decade ago seems to have mostly moved on from their sexist hatred of her.

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1 minute ago, AryaRegina said:

?
She seems to be well liked on this forum? Thankfully the dudebros from a decade ago seems to have mostly moved on from their sexist hatred of her.

yeah, in this forum it gotten better. But it's still really awful in a lot of places and was very awful for most of the time asoiaf existed. the level of hate was just astonishing IMO. The Arya hate has just recently started from what I've seen, similar to the Jon hate. Might have a lot to do with the abomination. But I'd say that most ppl still absolutely adore Arya. She is probably still among the top 5 favorite characters I'd say, if not 3. She isn't everyone's favorite anymore like she used to be similar to Tyrion I'd say.

 

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Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, in this forum it gotten better. But it's still really awful in a lot of places and was very awful for most of the time asoiaf existed. the level of hate was just astonishing IMO. The Arya hate has just recently started from what I've seen, similar to the Jon hate. Might have a lot to do with the abomination. But I'd say that most ppl still absolutely adore Arya. She is probably still among the top 5 favorite characters I'd say, if not 3. She isn't everyone's favorite anymore like she used to be similar to Tyrion I'd say.

 

Sorry to say it, but there was already quite a lot of Arya hate back in 2013.
It's usually veiled under "I like Arya, but...", so the Arya hate is hidden by them claiming to like her (and that might also be why she seems to be a fan favorite? idk), they're the people who call her "murder baby", "little psycho", implying that she's all brawn no brain and should become a sworn shield/knight/kingsguard, basically reducing her to violence/a sword but trying spin it as a positive thing etc.
There's also always been people who are honest about their dislike for Arya, and I honestly prefer them to people lying about liking her.

But to be fair, all the major female POVs (Arya, Dany, Cat and Sansa) are hated, it's just how it is with a story with so many characters and readers, and as I said, we can't all like the same characters, and that's fine. I just wish they would be disliked for what's in the books or personal preference, and not fanon or sexist reasons.

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11 minutes ago, AryaRegina said:

But to be fair, all the major female POVs (Arya, Dany, Cat and Sansa) are hated, it's just how it is with a story with so many characters and readers, and as I said, we can't all like the same characters, and that's fine. I just wish they would be disliked for what's in the books or personal preference, and not fanon or sexist reasons.

totally agree

12 minutes ago, AryaRegina said:

It's usually veiled under "I like Arya, but...", so the Arya hate is hidden by them claiming to like her (and that might also be why she seems to be a fan favorite? idk), they're the people who call her "murder baby", "little psycho", implying that she's all brawn no brain and should become a sworn shield/knight/kingsguard, basically reducing her to violence/a sword but trying spin it as a positive thing etc.

Yeah, I see that as well and I agree, that she is very misunderstood there. I feel like what a lot of ppl don't see is how Arya is actually suffering, because she reacted violent/had to be violent, how much her self-esteem is suffering, because of it. How her mental health is suffering (not in the "she is crazy now" way, but in the depression, self-esteem issue way). She actually doubts her mother will want her back, if she finds out what she has done. The time she travels with the Hound belongs still to the hardest chapters for me to read.

But even if ppl misunderstand her, I still believe they ultimately have affection for her, when they call her "murder baby" or "little Psycho" the same way a lot of ppl still have affection for Tyrion, but still criticize him for becoming darker (I personally think Arya's "darkness is not comparable to Tyrion's for a number of reasons) the moment she isn't a "murder baby" anymore, they'll 100% adore her again.

But there aren't threads on Arya thinking up ways how she should die, how she should be raped to death and how it should happen and who should do it (not caring at all, that they are talking about a 11-13 year old kid). There aren't threads on Arya how she mistreated the adult men, who prayed on her and how she should be thankful, that they were so kind to her. There aren't threads on Arya how she should only be with someone ugly or never be happy for thinking ugly adult men, where ugly and old, when she was 11. There aren't threads, that say Arya needed to be abused to be kicked off her high horse and that she deserved it for "killing her father" and could only be humbled through abuse. Then there are the ones, who victim-shame her for not escaping from KL on her own. The ones, who blame her for making Tyrion feel unwanted during her forced marriage and complain how she didn't let him rape her, because she should be thankful for such an amazing husband. And then there are of course the ones, who think she is utterly stupid and think she 100% trusts LF, apparently don't even bother to pay attention during her chapters, but are quick to comment. 

Dislike  IMO is fine, but there is a portion of ppl in the fandom, that loathe Sansa to such an extent, in such violent ways, that it's honestly really scary and upsetting and another portion, that just treats her like an object, just like she is treated in universe.

But if you look at this thread, ppl, who have Starks as favorites still tend to have Arya among their top 10 (more like top5), that doesn't happen for Sansa

 

 

 

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There are some regular posters who will note that they 1) haven't read all of the books (even the main series) and 2) have "figured out" what the story is.

There are posters who posit theories that go against things that the author has verified are not the case.

And yet, they are discussed. Why?

I don't need a 4500 line theory with endless quotes, I just want to know that posters have actually read the books and have some grasp of the SSMs.

 

It is not that hard.

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Posted (edited)

Trust only those with ID under 12000 or so. We are from the old times.:read:

Edited by Ran

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1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

There are some regular posters who will note that they 1) haven't read all of the books (even the main series) and 2) have "figured out" what the story is.

There are posters who posit theories that go against things that the author has verified are not the case.

And yet, they are discussed. Why?

I don't need a 4500 line theory with endless quotes, I just want to know that posters have actually read the books and have some grasp of the SSMs.

 

It is not that hard.

well, you are making me feel really insecure now, that's for sure lol Maybe I should take a break for a while.

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

well, you are making me feel really insecure now, that's for sure lol Maybe I should take a break for a while.

Nonsense, you have read the main series & you don't pretend to have the whole story figured out. He most certainly isn't talking about you here. 

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19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree. She isn't clueless at all & I think has a very good grasp of what is going on around her. She is playing the part she needs to play, for the time being, in order to survive. But that doesn't indicate cluelessness, that indicates awareness. 

The way I see Sansa is that she's creating a kind of fantasy world for herself (eg the Unkiss) and an alternative personality as Alayne, as a way of coping with the horrors she's been through.  I think Arya does it through the personalities of Cat and Mercy.  Dany does it by revering Rhaegar as a saint, seeing her father as betrayed, and increasingly viewing Viserys, and her life among the Dothraki, with rose-tinted spectacles.  I think all three characters must be suffering from a huge degree of repressed trauma.

 

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

All very true. Sadly, there’s a trend to turn any thread into a Stark Hate Thread, and that certainly takes a lot of joy out of the whole experience. As you said, we all have our faves and characters we don’t really like that much. And that’s totally fine. That’s part of the beauty of the world Martin created, there’s something for everyone, and enough mysteries to keep us all busy. 

Funnily enough, you don’t see Stark fans viciously hating on Targs... I wonder why. :dunno:

Course there is something you can do about it! New topics don’t have to be hugely “creative”. As a matter of fact, sometimes too much creativity is a minus. That’s why we have all the insane fan fic, for instance. Leave creativity to Martin, and let’s get talking! :D

 

Or we could go w/ members who think they’re not creative enough start a new topic for discussion. If it isn’t [yet] another dumb “Stark hate thread” I promise I’ll be there! :P :cheers:

Any hate thread is silly, unless it's about a character who is written to be hateful.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The way I see Sansa is that she's creating a kind of fantasy world for herself (eg the Unkiss) and an alternative personality as Alayne, as a way of coping with the horrors she's been through.  I think Arya does it through the personalities of Cat and Mercy.  Dany does it by revering Rhaegar as a saint, seeing her father as betrayed, and increasingly viewing Viserys, and her life among the Dothraki, with rose-tinted spectacles.  I think all three characters must be suffering from a huge degree of repressed trauma.

I agree they are all suffering from a huge degree of repressed trauma & are probably using all kinds of defense mechanisms to cope. Sansa certainly started out having created a fantasy world for herself but I think she understands right & well what is going on now. I personally think the UnKiss has more to do with Sandor specifically than her view of the world as a whole, but really it's just speculation. Her alternative personality was forced on her though, so I don't know that is so much a coping mechanism. I think it's interesting that while she was 'Sansa' she had this skewed, fairy tale, vision of the world (for some time) but as Alayne she seems to have become much more aware of what is really going on. 

Some of Aryas personalities were given to her/forced on her in a way but she starts from early on being someone else (Arry), so I agree it's very much a coping mechanism & revolves around her plot to become 'no one' I think in the end she will become Arya Stark & cope with things that way. 

I don't know about Dany viewing Viserys through rose-tinted spectacles. She seems to understand him for what he is. 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree they are all suffering from a huge degree of repressed trauma & are probably using all kinds of defense mechanisms to cope. Sansa certainly started out having created a fantasy world for herself but I think she understands right & well what is going on now. I personally think the UnKiss has more to do with Sandor specifically than her view of the world as a whole, but really it's just speculation. Her alternative personality was forced on her though, so I don't know that is so much a coping mechanism. I think it's interesting that while she was 'Sansa' she had this skewed, fairy tale, vision of the world (for some time) but as Alayne she seems to have become much more aware of what is really going on. 

Some of Aryas personalities were given to her/forced on her in a way but she starts from early on being someone else (Arry), so I agree it's very much a coping mechanism & revolves around her plot to become 'no one' I think in the end she will become Arya Stark & cope with things that way. 

I don't know about Dany viewing Viserys through rose-tinted spectacles. She seems to understand him for what he is. 

My impression is that Dany is forgetting just how awful Viserys was, as he fades into a past.  It's very common to remember the good things about an abuser, while gradually forgetting the bad.  I know at the time, my friends and I didn't find teachers with wandering hands or who loved beating pupils, at all funny, but now we laugh about it.

I think Sansa as Alayne, is in very serious denial about just what Littlefinger has in mind for Sweetrobin.  As readers, we can see it very clearly.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My impression is that Dany is forgetting just how awful Viserys was, as he fades into a past.  It's very common to remember the good things about an abuser, while gradually forgetting the bad.  I know at the time, my friends and I didn't find teachers with wandering hands or who loved beating pupils, at all funny, but now we laugh about it.

I think Sansa as Alayne, is in very serious denial about just what Littlefinger has in mind for Sweetrobin.  As readers, we can see it very clearly.

Yeah, maybe. I just don't recall her speaking very highly or nicely about Viserys, even now. To be fair I don't recall her speaking much about him at all, so maybe I'm just not remembering. 

Sansa certainly could be in denial about it. I get the impression that she knows more than what she (the author) is letting on right now though. I suppose time will tell. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar
spelling

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23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't think Sansa is clueless, just that she doesn't yell everything out for the reader. So the less perceptive readers might miss things, that Sansa actually knows/ is aware of, but chooses to not spell out for her self or the reader at the moment.

A lot of what was actually happening around her has yet to be revealed -- her date with Joffrey, the dinner conversation with Lady Olenna . . . --  so I'll leave it at that. But we do have a number of specific examples of Sansa being clueless, even when it is the very words out of her mouth:

Quote

The older man in white spoke to Sansa gently. "Oftimes Ser Illyn frightens me as well, sweet lady. He has a most fearsome aspect."

"As well he should." The queen had descended from the wheelhouse. The spectators parted to make way for her. "If the wicked do not fear the King's Justice, you have put the wrong man in office."

Sansa finally found her words. "Then surely you have chosen the right one, Your Grace," she said, and a gale of laughter erupted all around her.

and

Quote

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you are old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is not Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

"He is?" Sansa insisted. "I don't want someone brave and gentle, I want him.

Am I picking on early Sansa? Well, early Sansa is still Sansa not grasping the wider picture, so neither does the reader.

But we can see by the end of Feast that she still has no idea what's happening around her:

Quote

"Kind?" The older girl gave a laugh. "How boring that would be. I aspire to be wicked. You must tell me all your secrets on the ride down. May I call you Alayne?"

"If you wish, my lady." But you get no secrets from me.

"I am 'my lady' at the Gates, but up here on the mountain you may call me Randa. How many years have you, Alayne?"

"Four-and-ten," my lady. She had decided that Alayne Stone should be older than Sansa Stark.

So even as she thinks she is on her guard, the very first thing out of her mouth is the secret that she is not, cannot be, the daughter of Petyr Baelish and some wealthy Braavosi maid when he had charge of the port in Gulltown.

Later on, of course, we see the blunder about Jon Snow, which many readers spot, but then utterly miss the fact that Alayne is completely uninterested in the selection of a new High Septon.

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2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The older man in white spoke to Sansa gently. "Oftimes Ser Illyn frightens me as well, sweet lady. He has a most fearsome aspect."

"As well he should." The queen had descended from the wheelhouse. The spectators parted to make way for her. "If the wicked do not fear the King's Justice, you have put the wrong man in office."

Sansa finally found her words. "Then surely you have chosen the right one, Your Grace," she said, and a gale of laughter erupted all around her.

@John Suburbs I guess I don't see how this points to Sansa being clueless? 

2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you are old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is not Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

"He is?" Sansa insisted. "I don't want someone brave and gentle, I want him.

Again, I don't think this shows she is clueless, but young & having a tantrum of sorts over what she wants. She isn't stupid. She knows what she just said is silly, she is just mad about not getting her way. 

4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

"Kind?" The older girl gave a laugh. "How boring that would be. I aspire to be wicked. You must tell me all your secrets on the ride down. May I call you Alayne?"

"If you wish, my lady." But you get no secrets from me.

"I am 'my lady' at the Gates, but up here on the mountain you may call me Randa. How many years have you, Alayne?"

"Four-and-ten," my lady. She had decided that Alayne Stone should be older than Sansa Stark.

I'm gathering here that if she is 14 she cannot have been born to Baelish? I didn't know that & likely Myranda nor Sansa thought things through to that point. I respectfully disagree that this shows her being clueless. 

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16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@John Suburbs I guess I don't see how this points to Sansa being clueless? 

Again, I don't think this shows she is clueless, but young & having a tantrum of sorts over what she wants. She isn't stupid. She knows what she just said is silly, she is just mad about not getting her way. 

I'm gathering here that if she is 14 she cannot have been born to Baelish? I didn't know that & likely Myranda nor Sansa thought things through to that point. I respectfully disagree that this shows her being clueless. 

Lol. See? Sansa doesn't get it, so neither does the reader. "If the wicked do not fear the King's Justice . . ." "Then surely you have chosen the right one . . ." Sansa fears the King's Justice, therefore Sansa is saying that she, herself, is one of the wicked. And everybody laughs . . .

On the second quote, she again does not realize that she has just said Joffrey is not brave and gentle -- and the foreshadowing here is hard to ignore. She doesn't realize that what she has just said is silly.

Maybe Randa has picked up on it, maybe not, but the point is that Sansa does not grasp this basic fact, so neither does the reader -- unless they recall the bit two full novels ago where Baelish only received his minor sinecure as a customs officer 10 years prior.

This is not a dig on Sansa. It's just that with her more than most, the actual truth must lies below the actual text of what she is seeing and thinking.

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Posted (edited)

I personally am not a fan of What If threats but anything else \i am fine as long as there are healthy discussions.

And quoting paragraphs directly from the book is hard and tiring for us that heve read the books in a different language.

Edited by Dreadscythe95

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38 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

I personally am not a fan of What If threats but anything else \i am fine as long as there are healthy discussions.

And quoting paragraphs directly from the book is hard and tiring for us that heve read the books in a different language.

The language issue is a good point and not something I gave sufficient consideration to, apologies in general for that insensitivity.

Healthy discussions can come of them, but it is rare.  Almost nothing useful can come of "what if something completely different happened in the past" discussions, because they immediately leap to opinions about characters and not substance from the books (even without quotes.)

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