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Ser Leftwich

Have posters actually read the books?

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56 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol. See? Sansa doesn't get it, so neither does the reader. "If the wicked do not fear the King's Justice . . ." "Then surely you have chosen the right one . . ." Sansa fears the King's Justice, therefore Sansa is saying that she, herself, is one of the wicked. And everybody laughs . . .

:bang: :blush: Ahhh... Well, maybe I'm a bit clueless as well LOL

 

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

A lot of what was actually happening around her has yet to be revealed -- her date with Joffrey, the dinner conversation with Lady Olenna . . . --  so I'll leave it at that. But we do have a number of specific examples of Sansa being clueless, even when it is the very

Well, there are things, that Sansa legitimately just can't know. If Cersei wanted Sansa to lose her maidenhead through one riding date with Joffrey (which IMO is very far fetched and Cersei would have thought about it or told someone in her chapters like she does with everything) Sansa can't know, because she wasn't there when Cersei told someone or plotted the whole thing. The same thing with Olenna. It's would be the same to accuse Arya of being clueless for not knowing what Bolton was up to.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa doesn't get it, so neither does the reader. "If the wicked do not fear the King's Justice . . ." "Then surely you have chosen the right one . . ." Sansa fears the King's Justice, therefore Sansa is saying that she, herself, is one of the wicked. And everybody laughs . . .

I don't think, that's necessarily the reason, why they are laughing.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Am I picking on early Sansa? Well, early Sansa is still Sansa not grasping the wider picture, so neither does the reader.

Well, we can't see the future, the other characters (especially Ned) can't see the future and Sansa can't.

But yeah I think it's absolutely not useful for your argument, to take AOT Sansa examples. Everyone knows AOT Sansa lived in her own fairytale land and only saw the world through that lens. I see the problem more with readers, who only ever did one character assessment and afterwards refuse to acknowledge changes.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So even as she thinks she is on her guard, the very first thing out of her mouth is the secret that she is not, cannot be, the daughter of Petyr Baelish and some wealthy Braavosi maid when he had charge of the port in Gulltown.

Later on, of course, we see the blunder about Jon Snow, which many readers spot, but then utterly miss the fact that Alayne is completely uninterested in the selection of a new High Septon.

Sure, but I wouldn't call that clueless, but untrained at being undercover. That's god damn hard. It isn't for no reason, that ppl train for years to be able to do that. And only a few can ultimately ever pull something like this off. It has more to do with acting and having a convincing backstory, being absolutely sure of, who you are, what your character would say at every given time and your biography, has nothing to do with being clueless or not. LF should have practiced every possible scenario with her. How should she know, what to be interested in and what not. She is still only 13 with limited life experience. It only makes me once more question, if LF is just utterly stupid or if he just doesn't truly want to disguise Sansa anyway (probably the later)

And if we are starting with cluelessness we'll never see the end of it: All the characters are clueless, therefore we are. Arya is clueless about the faceless men-therefore we are. Also she sees things through the same age appropriate lens as Sansa does ( "That’s stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she’d never marry the Imp.") Vic and Asha are clueless, when it comes to Euron therefore we are, Tyrion was clueless regarding Shae and Tywin, Jaime was clueless regarding Cersei, Ned and Cat and Robb were clueless and therefore we were, Jon was clueless regarding the NW's attack and therefore we were, just to name a few. But this is usually how stories work.

 

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7 hours ago, SeanF said:

The way I see Sansa is that she's creating a kind of fantasy world for herself (eg the Unkiss) and an alternative personality as Alayne, as a way of coping with the horrors she's been through.  I think Arya does it through the personalities of Cat and Mercy.  Dany does it by revering Rhaegar as a saint, seeing her father as betrayed, and increasingly viewing Viserys, and her life among the Dothraki, with rose-tinted spectacles.  I think all three characters must be suffering from a huge degree of repressed trauma.

One thing to keep in mind about Dany moving forward, I think, is the fact that she has never experienced genuine love. Not even once in her life. Even Tyrion had Jaime, who genuinely loved him. 

IMO how she named her dragons is quite important and telling. Those three (two) men represent a horrible kind of "love"- but it's the only love she has ever known.

I agree, that Arya, Sansa and Dany should all have a huge degree of repressed trauma. I'm however not so sure about how accurately GRRM is going to explore that. Dany for example should for sure suffer from some PTSD regarding her time with Drogo, but she doesn't and GRRM has even called their wedding night romantic so...

Sansa has some PTSD, but most of it is connected to Ned's beheading (Ilyn Payne) and the riot. And I'd say Arya and Sansa both have to deal with mental health problems like depression and low self-esteem, feelings of being alone, unloved and unwanted.

When it comes to the Unkiss I never quite understood how adding just a kiss would turn this into fairytale memory - if so, it's still a pretty god damn dark fairytale.

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Any hate thread is silly, unless it's about a character who is written to be hateful.

IMO respectful dislike is fine, but you should back up your opinion through the text. In hate thread ppl usually stop quoting. 

But yeah, won't feel bad for hating Ramsey and Gregor :D

 

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I don't like What if... threads. I agree they should have a separate sub-forum, but I'm fine with just passing them over. What if I did like them? Then I would disagree with my point.

I also hate hate threads.

I have read some great posts on this forum about mythology, political science, philosophy, history, and even geography. This type of comparative analysis can add a lot to understanding the story, often without quoting ASoIaF even once because it's not needed.

When it comes to comes to analysis or theories regarding the actual story, i.e. plot, theme, character, setting, mood, mystery, literary devices or story-telling technique, then citation makes the argument a lot stronger. It's the only way to do it really. All these things are put in place by the author using nothing but words. Trying to explain what the author is saying without using the words he has given us for that specific purpose is like trying to build a jigsaw puzzle without using the pieces.

The books are layered so re-reading clearly helps, as does the quantity and quality of literature you consume, but that does not always translate into understanding the series. At the end of the day, an argument stands or falls on its own merits, regardless of how many times the poster read the books or how long they've been on the forum.

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3 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

The language issue is a good point and not something I gave sufficient consideration to, apologies in general for that insensitivity.

Healthy discussions can come of them, but it is rare.  Almost nothing useful can come of "what if something completely different happened in the past" discussions, because they immediately leap to opinions about characters and not substance from the books (even without quotes.)

It's ok my friend. I love it when people give pragraphs as well because it makes the points stronger but sadly it's very hard, especially considering how many pages of material ASOIAF is...

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20 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well, there are things, that Sansa legitimately just can't know. If Cersei wanted Sansa to lose her maidenhead through one riding date with Joffrey (which IMO is very far fetched and Cersei would have thought about it or told someone in her chapters like she does with everything) Sansa can't know, because she wasn't there when Cersei told someone or plotted the whole thing. The same thing with Olenna. It's would be the same to accuse Arya of being clueless for not knowing what Bolton was up to.

I don't think, that's necessarily the reason, why they are laughing.

Well, we can't see the future, the other characters (especially Ned) can't see the future and Sansa can't.

But yeah I think it's absolutely not useful for your argument, to take AOT Sansa examples. Everyone knows AOT Sansa lived in her own fairytale land and only saw the world through that lens. I see the problem more with readers, who only ever did one character assessment and afterwards refuse to acknowledge changes.

Sure, but I wouldn't call that clueless, but untrained at being undercover. That's god damn hard. It isn't for no reason, that ppl train for years to be able to do that. And only a few can ultimately ever pull something like this off. It has more to do with acting and having a convincing backstory, being absolutely sure of, who you are, what your character would say at every given time and your biography, has nothing to do with being clueless or not. LF should have practiced every possible scenario with her. How should she know, what to be interested in and what not. She is still only 13 with limited life experience. It only makes me once more question, if LF is just utterly stupid or if he just doesn't truly want to disguise Sansa anyway (probably the later)

And if we are starting with cluelessness we'll never see the end of it: All the characters are clueless, therefore we are. Arya is clueless about the faceless men-therefore we are. Also she sees things through the same age appropriate lens as Sansa does ( "That’s stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she’d never marry the Imp.") Vic and Asha are clueless, when it comes to Euron therefore we are, Tyrion was clueless regarding Shae and Tywin, Jaime was clueless regarding Cersei, Ned and Cat and Robb were clueless and therefore we were, Jon was clueless regarding the NW's attack and therefore we were, just to name a few. But this is usually how stories work.

 

Sure, I'm not saying this to cut on Sansa or say that she's stupid or anything. Just that with her more than anyone else, the things happening around her are beyond her grasp. So therefore they are not stated outright in the text, and that tends to mislead the reader as well.

Yes, this is exactly why they are laughing. What else could they be laughing at? On its own, it's an utterly innocuous sentence.

Yes, no one can see the future. Again, I'm not belittling Sansa. She's a young girl with a head full of songs. It's just that she does not perceive so many things, so the reader doesn't either. But we see this same thing with many other PoVs: Ned, Tyrion, Jon . . . I'm just saying it happens with Sansa more than anyone else because she lacks the realistic world view that many older characters have. Just for kicks, reread Cat's arrival in King's Landing and see if you can tell how easily both Varys and Littlefinger knew she was in-town, and why. Reread Tyrion and Oberyn's conversation on the way into the city and try to spot the blunder that Tyrion makes. 

Clueless was my word. Feel free to choose your own. Sansa is unaware of what is happening, even when she is doing or saying something herself. So she has no idea that Lady Olenna was really fishing for the truth about her, not Joffrey, with all her questions; she has no idea that the ride on the Trident was intended to slut-shame her so she could no longer be Joffrey's consort; she is unaware of how badly she has blown her cover with Randa . . . None of this is her fault or that she should know better, but she does not know these things are happening, so the truth behind this is not laid out plain as day for the reader. You have to dig into the subtext to really see what's happening.

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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, I'm not saying this to cut on Sansa or say that she's stupid or anything. Just that with her more than anyone else, the things happening around her are beyond her grasp. So therefore they are not stated outright in the text, and that tends to mislead the reader as well.

Yes, this is exactly why they are laughing. What else could they be laughing at? On its own, it's an utterly innocuous sentence.

Yes, no one can see the future. Again, I'm not belittling Sansa. She's a young girl with a head full of songs. It's just that she does not perceive so many things, so the reader doesn't either. But we see this same thing with many other PoVs: Ned, Tyrion, Jon . . . I'm just saying it happens with Sansa more than anyone else because she lacks the realistic world view that many older characters have. Just for kicks, reread Cat's arrival in King's Landing and see if you can tell how easily both Varys and Littlefinger knew she was in-town, and why. Reread Tyrion and Oberyn's conversation on the way into the city and try to spot the blunder that Tyrion makes. 

Clueless was my word. Feel free to choose your own. Sansa is unaware of what is happening, even when she is doing or saying something herself. So she has no idea that Lady Olenna was really fishing for the truth about her, not Joffrey, with all her questions; she has no idea that the ride on the Trident was intended to slut-shame her so she could no longer be Joffrey's consort; she is unaware of how badly she has blown her cover with Randa . . . None of this is her fault or that she should know better, but she does not know these things are happening, so the truth behind this is not laid out plain as day for the reader. You have to dig into the subtext to really see what's happening.

Alright. I see what you mean.

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I think some posters are a bit too familiar with the books.  They know every plot hole, contrivance, unexplained arrival or departure, and turn of phrase; and think every such example has significance.

Thus we get "X is really Y in disguise" threads and nonsense like Cersei's supposed hidden agenda on the Trident.  Plot holes become rabbit holes trapping the unwary into going in circles or riding a treadmill, going nowhere at all.

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Posted (edited)

What if the "what if" threads were about future plots, instead of changing the past?

Like "What if Ramsay never wrote the Pink Letter and someone else did, and these are his/her reasons ... "

or

Like "What if Rhaego is alive? No one confirmed where the body was placed! MMD said "He had been dead for years" Dany was not pregnant for years!"

These are technically "what if"s

Edited by The Map Guy

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7 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think some posters are a bit too familiar with the books.  They know every plot hole, contrivance, unexplained arrival or departure, and turn of phrase; and think every such example has significance.

But thinking every little thing means something doesn’t necessarily come from knowing the text or being too familiar w/ it, does it? :dunno:

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17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Alright. I see what you mean.

Did you read the two sections I mentioned? I'd be interested to know your thoughts. Cat's is pretty obvious; Tyrion, not so much.

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11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Did you read the two sections I mentioned? I'd be interested to know your thoughts. Cat's is pretty obvious; Tyrion, not so much.

Not yet, but will do. I remember noticing something in the Cat scene in that regard- even though I forgot the specifics. But not the Tyrion one. You know by chance which Cat chapter that was?

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11 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Not yet, but will do. I remember noticing something in the Cat scene in that regard- even though I forgot the specifics. But not the Tyrion one. You know by chance which Cat chapter that was?

Right when she arrives in Kings Landing. GoT Cat IV, I believe, or maybe V.

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On 3/9/2020 at 9:00 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I miss @Dorian Martell's son, and @Dorian Martell for that matter. :D

Awww, I'm touched. Well, since the thing we shall not mention has shown us the big reveal of Jon's parentage, the general arc of the story and the fate of Dany and the 7 kingdoms, and GRRM is no closer to finishing winds than he was in 2015 when he canceled his appearances to get winds out before the parentage reveal, there is really no reason to be here. He's still writing, and there is no news other than that, but everything he had been building since the 90's has been revealed years ago. The last book was 9 years ago and realistically, every single individual point about it has been discussed dozens of times over, so all there is left is fan fic looseley disguised as "theories."  Maybe when the next book comes out this forum will be relevant again. 

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Yes...I've read all the A Song Of Ice and Fire Novels, from A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, A Dance with Dragons...

That's why I predict Jon Snow will become King of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, with Val (https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Val) as his Queen.

I actually wanted Westeros to become a democracy but GRRM did promise that the book series would copy the War of the Roses...

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On 3/23/2020 at 5:45 PM, John Suburbs said:

Lol. See? Sansa doesn't get it, so neither does the reader. "If the wicked do not fear the King's Justice . . ." "Then surely you have chosen the right one . . ." Sansa fears the King's Justice, therefore Sansa is saying that she, herself, is one of the wicked. And everybody laughs . . .

That is not quite logically watertight. They did not say that only the wicked fear Ilyn. I like your interpretation though, it could be true.

The alternative is that everyone is a bit nervous around Ilyn, who is a tremendously sinister guy. Seeing him dissed by a cute little girl released the tension. Plus Ilyn's reaction seems to show he felt the laughter was at him.

On 3/23/2020 at 5:45 PM, John Suburbs said:

On the second quote, she again does not realize that she has just said Joffrey is not brave and gentle -- and the foreshadowing here is hard to ignore. She doesn't realize that what she has just said is silly.

Her meaning is pretty clear though. Septa Mordane would have pulled her up on her sloppy use of language, true.

On 3/23/2020 at 5:45 PM, John Suburbs said:

Maybe Randa has picked up on it, maybe not, but the point is that Sansa does not grasp this basic fact, so neither does the reader -- unless they recall the bit two full novels ago where Baelish only received his minor sinecure as a customs officer 10 years prior.

Yeah, good catch. Really though, this is Petyr's mistake - obviously Sansa cannot pass as a child of nine or ten. And from Sansa's perspective, she's looking at the silver in Petyr's beard and over-estimating his age as anyone would - a valid reason for making Alayne a bit older.

On 3/23/2020 at 5:45 PM, John Suburbs said:

This is not a dig on Sansa. It's just that with her more than most, the actual truth must lies below the actual text of what she is seeing and thinking.

She is naive, and out of her depth among players of the game. Being in the game is mostly why the facts are devious and hidden in her chapters. Don't write her off yet. She makes mistakes sometimes, and feels powerless - but so does Arya, and no-one doubts her.

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