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polishgenius

Football: What Football?

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11 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

You cant promote and not relegate.  

You can. Germany's current plan if they have to cancel the season is to promote four teams and expand the league next year to 22.

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2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

You can. Germany's current plan if they have to cancel the season is to promote four teams and expand the league next year to 22.

Has the prem been suspended yet or is it just being delayed until April?

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18 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

You cant promote and not relegate. 

Of course you can, just increase the number of teams participating, then if you want to back to the old number, have the number of teams relegated that season be bigger than the number of teams promoted.

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I didn't mean you physically cant. I meant it would be stupid. Why is the top 2 deserving of being promoted, but the bottom 2 not of being relegated? 

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2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I didn't mean you physically cant. I meant it would be stupid. Why is the top 2 deserving of being promoted, but the bottom 2 not of being relegated

Because West Ham belongs in the EPL, it's the Hammers godgiven right to be there.

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11 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Because West Ham belongs in the EPL, it's the Hammers godgiven right to be there.

Fuck West Ham. Stratford is a shithole, even geordies are snobby towards East London. 

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4 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I didn't mean you physically cant. I meant it would be stupid. Why is the top 2 deserving of being promoted, but the bottom 2 not of being relegated? 

Because the bottom 2 could still have clawed out of the relegation zone with more than 10 games to go, which would result in them getting punished for something that is not their fault.

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20 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Because the bottom 2 could still have clawed out of the relegation zone with more than 10 games to go, which would result in them getting punished for something that is not their fault.

I agree that the relegation candidates should be allowed to stay but Liverpool should be given the title even if I don’t want them to win simply cos it was impossible for them not to win in now if were being honest. My big question is who gets UCL football next year? The current top 4 could have changed a lot in the remaining games? 

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The current top 4 (well, top 5 with the City ban) would get it. But it's different than relegation because the teams that miss out aren't exactly getting punished, they're just not getting a benefit of going to the Champions or Europa League. And the impact of not making CL or EL, while big, it's not as big as being relegated.

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7 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Because the bottom 2 could still have clawed out of the relegation zone with more than 10 games to go, which would result in them getting punished for something that is not their fault.

And the top 2 could have collapsed (as leeds and west brom both did earlier this season before getting back on track). Resulting in Fulham for example being punished for something that is not their fault. 

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Posted (edited)

I haven't seen anyone talking about EL and CL qualifiers. This is also another huge problem as it affects over 100 clubs and the preliminary rounds normally start in the last week of June. So there has to be a cut off point (maybe early-mid May) were you simply cannot complete the season + give players some time off + have the qualifiers take place + have a preseason before starting the season proper. There's no point in fucking up next season as well.

Re: promotion/relegation. If the season cannot be completed then I really can't see a solution here that wouldn't leave a number of clubs unhappy. Whatever solution is applied to the Premier League will then have to be carried out all the way down the divisions as well.

 

12 hours ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes said:

I agree that the relegation candidates should be allowed to stay but Liverpool should be given the title even if I don’t want them to win simply cos it was impossible for them not to win in now if were being honest. My big question is who gets UCL football next year? The current top 4 could have changed a lot in the remaining games? 

I think it's very easy to say that given Liverpool's realistically unassailable lead but the one question is, what precedent does this set? If, down the line, another season has to be cancelled, do we award whoever is 1st the title even though they aren't 20+ points ahead? Since there is currently no provision in the rules for a cancelled season, whatever they come up with should be something that would be applicable if we have another such situation arise in the future. 

eta. and the same goes for promotion/relegation and awarding of European places. Whatever solutions they come up with should be applicable to future seasons in the event of cancellation.

Edited by Consigliere

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7 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

And the top 2 could have collapsed (as leeds and west brom both did earlier this season before getting back on track). Resulting in Fulham for example being punished for something that is not their fault. 

But that's different, because Fulham and the likes are simply not getting an added benefit which they already had small chances of getting anyway (requiring either one of the two teams collapse AND they getting points enough to reach the top two or remain in the top 6 AND win the playoff semifinals AND win the playoff finals). It's not different than the teams outside the CL qualification group not making the next CL, with the added caveat that winning qualification to the PL would be even harder.

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Ironically the coronavirus virus interruption will give top players their longest break in years, and could help their long term fitness and resistance to injuries.  Harry Kane and Marcus Rashford, just for example, won’t be rushed into a summer tournament after long injuries. 

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3 hours ago, Consigliere said:

*snip*? Since there is currently no provision in the rules for a cancelled season, whatever they come up with should be something that would be applicable if we have another such situation arise in the future. 

eta. and the same goes for promotion/relegation and awarding of European places. Whatever solutions they come up with should be applicable to future seasons in the event of cancellation.

I don't agree with this at all. There is no reason whatever they come up with now has to apply in the future. They can do whatever they need to do to sort out this mess now which caught everyone with their pants down and then spend the next few months/years coming up with something more solid (with more time to consult stakeholders), instead of sticking with something they are now rushing through in these very panicky moment. It can certainly form a base, but I don't think it's a good idea to rush through major plans in very short time with very little consultation period. Specially as it not only impacts the different league in the country, but also euro and fifa comps.

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Like I siad, I think the season will be pushed further back, and the Euros won't take place this summer.

I think that is a pretty reasonable assumption, as in the big domestic leagues won't get finished at their regular end in May. FWIW, I also don't think the season will resume at the start of April mid-April early May looks more realistic targets imho.

Now then, depending on how long the end of the season is pushed back, this can create completely different mess (apart from the scheduling) which we haven't even talked about, yet.

Players contracts and transfers. The players that are set to leave their clubs on July first. What happens if there are still 1-2 match days left to play? The departing players might very well have no valid contract with their clubs. What happens then? Are they supposed to play for their old club regardless, and what about their insurance if they get injured during that period? When they have signed for an opposing team, I'd guess they'd have to report there on July first.

This is gonna be such a mess.

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With Super League being pretty much the only live sport still going Sky have drafted in the big guns. Chris Kamara is now a rugby league analyst.

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Posted (edited)

The Kicker has published different scenarios for the German Football yesterday evening.

And also the problems for each. Funny thing, they seem to read this thread here, too. As in they touched on the contract situations of players, too. I assume the EPL/EFL will be in a very similar situation. This a free translation by sincerely yours, if you don't trust me with that, you are as always free to use google translate.

Resuming play (behind closed doors?).

The latest day for Clubs to restart playing is May the second, if they want to complete the league more or less regularly. This would involve clubs playing so called English weeks (midweek matches) until the end of the season. Anything later runs into the problem that a part of the player contracts will have ended on July first (check my previous post (yes blowing my own horn here). Dortmund's Chairman Watzke said, if play continues it will be behind closed doors.

A cancellation (and voiding, but I will get to that later) of the season is something clubs want to avoid at all costs.

That would be very expensive, in terms of TV money and sponsorship deals. Simply put, no games, no money for those matchdays. The next issue would be qualification for the European competitions, promotion and relegation. As it seems impossible to adjudicate those according to the current standings, esp. with the Frankfurt-Bremen game that has not been played yet. In the relegation zone it would also be unfair disadvantage towards the teams that have already against Bayern, Leipzig, Dortmund and co. Simply using the current table would be open to legal challenges from everywhere. Next issue would be promotion. Even if there were no relegation for top flight, and the top two teams (Bielefeld and Stuttgart atm) were to be promoted, that leaves the question of what to do with the H$V who is right now sitting on the play off spot. Confining them to another year of second tier football [personally I see no problems with that for obvious reasons], and that's assuming they won't be throwing a tantrum take things to court. Assuming they didn't and with no relegation in place, Bundesliga 2 could also play next year with 18 teams again (again assuming the team sitting on the play off spot in the third tier doesn't take things to court). Speaking about them, the third league would actually be hit. As they would end up with 22 teams (instead of 20). And that still leaves the problem of how to deal with the winners of Regional Leagues West and North-East, who were supposed to play for a promotion spot. So the knock on effects are just a mess.

Voiding of the season.

Also open for legal challenges. Esp. with regards to the qualification for European Football. It's hardly conceivable that teams would sit still, while the same teams as last year get simply awarded the CL and EL spots (not to mention promotion/relegation again). WRT to the EPL, I think Leicester might have some objections towards watching Spurs playing CL football in front of the TV.

News Update: Head of the German Football League (DFL) Christian Seifert has said, the clubs will meet on the 30th of March to decide on the next steps. So no guarantee play will resume on April 2nd. [Again, I don't think that is likely, and mid april at the earliest looks like a more probable outcome]. He also said, he assumes that the national leagues will have some more room after the UEFA meeting on Tuesday, thus heavily implying that the Euros won't take place as planned.

Edited by A Horse Named Stranger

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On 3/15/2020 at 12:08 PM, Consigliere said:

I think it's very easy to say that given Liverpool's realistically unassailable lead but the one question is, what precedent does this set? If, down the line, another season has to be cancelled, do we award whoever is 1st the title even though they aren't 20+ points ahead? Since there is currently no provision in the rules for a cancelled season, whatever they come up with should be something that would be applicable if we have another such situation arise in the future.

Let's put it this way then, if everyone has flat-out said that a team won the title for months and then the season gets interrupted then the team gets the title. Does that sound like a good enough precedent?

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1 hour ago, baxus said:

Let's put it this way then, if everyone has flat-out said that a team won the title for months and then the season gets interrupted then the team gets the title. Does that sound like a good enough precedent?

You might think so, but remember: football is also the sport where Luis Suarez can stop a certain goal by handballing on the goal line in the last minute of extra time in a knock-out competition - and it isn't given as a goal. 

Basically, that situation is more certain than Liverpool winning the title - there is simply no way that ball doesn't go in if he doesn't break the rules. And still Uruguay went through, and a handball like that is still only (in this case that's the correct word) a penalty. 

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2 hours ago, baxus said:

Let's put it this way then, if everyone has flat-out said that a team won the title for months and then the season gets interrupted then the team gets the title. Does that sound like a good enough precedent?

No, it doesn't.

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