US Politics: Vaguely above average Tuesday

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Not to covid up the politics thread, but given the rate of infection and the fecklessness of the administration the 'could' is almost certainly going to be 'will'. It won't be all states, but it will be some. I fully expect WA to be overwhelmed with cases in that timeframe.  

I'm honestly more concerned about red states like my own. Higher % of uninsured, more people taking cues from Trump's mismanagement, less spending on, and access to, healthcare, fewer jobs offering paid sick leave...it's a recipe for a red-state pandemic.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

29 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I also don’t think Sander supporters understand how much they’ve won. You've taken the party way further to the left than I could have imagined, and yet I constantly hear that Hillary or Joe never did anything for them. Look at Hillary's policy at the start of the campaign and at the end. She changed so much, and it still wasn't good enough.

Which was imo the reason why Sanders stayed in the race for as long as he did last time, so he could get the max leverage out of his position and got to push her further to the left policy wise.

That's why I am not holding that against Sanders. And otherwise I agree with DMC I think him staying in the race had very little to do with HRC's defeat. Unless you assume her platform was too progressive to win.

[Fragile Bird]

12 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

DOW flirting with bear territory. Looks like yesterday was a dead-cat bounce after all.

Fastest drop from the top of the market to a correction in history.

Fastest drop from the top of a market into bear territory in history (if there isn't a last minute rally).

[Kalbear]

I thought this was amusing. The punchline is that these are all part of Biden's platform already.

 

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

As it turns out, there's a whole lot of sexism involved. The same forces that showed that Sanders' base with white working class was not nearly as strong as it showed in 2016 is also a reason that Warren didn't take off as well. And chances are pretty good that the extremely online, extremely young white men that are largely part of Chapo are also pretty sexist and racist, at least compared to the dem population as a whole. 

I agree--the podcast is vile, and it's become nastier in the past few weeks. I used to listen for a laugh or two, but I couldn't do it anymore. It was an easy delete. I do think the subreddit gets undo criticism. The most valid criticism is they will always put class ahead of race and gender, and sometimes I do see people getting a bit twisted when they think we're "just running women for the sake of it." On the other hand, there is a huge LGBTQ+ population that posts there.

I think/hope Warren could be setup for a big time (populous) return if Biden gets her as part of his team in a prominent (VP?) role. The despair of the far left right now means they could be looking for any sign of hope. 

[Myshkin]

So I think it’s become fairly obvious that a significant section of 2016 Bernie voters were in fact anti-Clinton voters. And that same section (rural white Dems) are the ones who cost Clinton the election. Now we can argue over why this demographic was so strongly anti-Clinton, but I have a hard time believing it was because she’s a “neoliberal shill”, especially considering those same people are now flocking to Biden. We need to stop reacting angrily when the topic of sexism comes up, because very clearly sexism is a problem within the Democratic Party, and we need to fucking deal with that shit.

Also, and please believe me when I say I’m not trying to put down Bernie’s progressive base, but winning back rural and suburban whites in the rustbelt was far more electorally important than winning over young progressives. I think Berners may be overestimating the strength of their position. Again I don’t say this to denigrate these people; believe it or not, I consider myself a progressive, and I am very much in favor of many of the ideas Bernie champions. But if Berners want these ideas to be given serious attention by the mainstream of the Dem party they need to realize where it is they stand and not overplay their hand. 

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

So I think it’s become fairly obvious that a significant section of 2016 Bernie voters were in fact anti-Clinton voters.

She was the the most popular politican in America 3 years prior to her run for the presidency.  People are wildly more influencable by political hit jobs and media aversion to calling them out than  most realize.

 

[Stego]

4 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

The coronavirus and incoming recession are game changers. The DNC could give the nod to a beat up turnip and it'll beat Trump in the next GE.

 

Jeordhi got that good-good making him talk cray.

 

3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I was going to support and campaign for whoever is the Democratic nominee, even if it is one of my two least favorite candidates, Biden and Sanders. 

If those are your two least favorite candidates, you are the problem.

[Stego]

3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Biden is actually doing very well with many of the key constituencies where Clinton fell short (African Americans

#obamamemes

[Stego]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I'm intensely curious to find out if Washington State's turnout was significantly better for young people. Most of the barriers to voting for younger voters are entirely absent from the WA state system - the biggest one is having a somewhat permanent residence. But in theory, WA should have a very good youth turnout. 

The biggest impediments to voting are lack of time, work obligations, the belief that a vote is worthless, and laziness.

Washington State has all of these.

[Stego]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

As a pragmatic liberal, I’d much rather get some of what I want than nothing at all

3% of what you want now is better than 50% of what you want in 4 years?

Nah.

[Stego]

1 hour ago, Simon Steele said:

I wish they would look to her. I'm mystified to why that toxic percentage of supporters hate her so much.

Lifelong Republican who is known as a liar.

I know, it's mystifying how people with integrity reject her.

[Zorral]

We can't divorce the pandemic from politics and the economy.

Disney is packed with people.  Florida college students are booking on the now cheap cruises with the idea they can go somewhere where the virus isn't, and if "I get sick, I'm young and health," never thinking about how likely s/he's bringing the virus to a so far healthy population.  I'm tempted to believe people like that should be shot -- also Disney and the cruise lines for continuing because they are directly responsible for continuing the virus's spread across all the populations.

[Stego]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I'm tempted to believe people like that should be shot 

Millenials can finally afford a vacation and you want to..... MURDER them for it?

You need a hug.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Disney is packed with people.  Florida college students are booking on the now cheap cruises with the idea they can go somewhere where the virus isn't, and if "I get sick, I'm young and health," never thinking about how likely s/he's bringing the virus to a so far healthy population.  I'm tempted to believe people like that should be shot -- also Disney and the cruise lines for continuing because they are directly responsible for continuing the virus's spread across all the populations.

I believe every passenger on a cruise ship should be shot for theri contribution to global warming. Cruise ships are worse poluters than planes. Hell, they could drive a diesel powered SUV to their destination and be less destructive for the enviroment.

[argonak]

30 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

So I think it’s become fairly obvious that a significant section of 2016 Bernie voters were in fact anti-Clinton voters. And that same section (rural white Dems) are the ones who cost Clinton the election. Now we can argue over why this demographic was so strongly anti-Clinton, but I have a hard time believing it was because she’s a “neoliberal shill”, especially considering those same people are now flocking to Biden. We need to stop reacting angrily when the topic of sexism comes up, because very clearly sexism is a problem within the Democratic Party, and we need to fucking deal with that shit.

Also, and please believe me when I say I’m not trying to put down Bernie’s progressive base, but winning back rural and suburban whites in the rustbelt was far more electorally important than winning over young progressives. I think Berners may be overestimating the strength of their position. Again I don’t say this to denigrate these people; believe it or not, I consider myself a progressive, and I am very much in favor of many of the ideas Bernie champions. But if Berners want these ideas to be given serious attention by the mainstream of the Dem party they need to realize where it is they stand and not overplay their hand. 

I personally really disliked Hillary, especially whenever I had to listen to her.  I never was able to put my finger on exactly why.  I think it might be related to growing up in a fox news household and not getting free of that brainwashing until GWB put the final nail in the coffin of fiscal conservatism, which was the only pillar of that tent that ever really held me in.   But I held my nose and voted for her in the end, because I despise the GOP.

I do still find her to come off extremely condescending and often insulting.  I heard excerpts of her recent interviews on the radio, and the way she talks about Bernie Sanders is infuriating, especially because I don't recall Bernie bad mouthing other democrats, he has focused on policy differences when I have heard him speak.

I don't dislike Biden really at all, I just think he's old,  too wishy washy middleman, and lacks the kind of energy a President should have.  Bernie may be old but he still has fire.  

[argonak]

2 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I believe every passenger on a cruise ship should be shot for theri contribution to global warming. Cruise ships are worse poluters than planes. Hell, they could drive a diesel powered SUV to their destination and be less destructive for the enviroment.

Okay. . . that's a bit extreme.  How about we just make laws that require the companies regulate their emissions versus executing consumers who have zero awareness of what goes into producing the product their conusming?

[A Horse Named Stranger]

5 minutes ago, argonak said:

Okay. . . that's a bit extreme.  How about we just make laws that require the companies regulate their emissions versus executing consumers who have zero awareness of what goes into producing the product their conusming?

I don't think the emissions of cruise ships are exactly breaking news. Of course, if the same consumers then show up at a Friday for Futures protest, then I'd think them doing a Cersei run of shame is the absolute minimal sentence I am willing to accept.

Reminds me of the story a friend told me. He and his girlfriend were traveling the eastern US, New England, NY, Indian Summer bit. They happened to be in NY during the time of the Occupy Wallstreet protests, and the sight of participants shuffing MacDonald's into their mouths, was something that puzzled him. When he approached, and asked them about it, his confusion puzzled them apparently even more. Why am I sharing this story. I guess lack of self-awareness, and critical thinking might be an overarching theme there, and with the cruise ship tourists.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

22 minutes ago, Stego said:

Lifelong Republican who is known as a liar.

I know, it's mystifying how people with integrity reject her.

I get what you're saying. I guess I don't often think about her history as a Republican, and that's a blind-spot for me.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

4 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

I'm am so the god damn opposite of purity politics it's not even funny.

But sure let's pretend it's purity politics to recognize that a lot of people on the left (I'm not gonna say "far" left, let's be real Bernie not far left and neither are the majority of his supporters) are susceptible to the same kind of populism that created the alt right.

Christ, do you even know what purity politics is?

Yeah, it's exactly what you're doing (albeit in the opposite direction) by looking so far down at other groups of supporters that you don't even want their help. You have an arbitrary question about something, and based on how you presume people will respond, you judge them as inferior. I know it's hard to accept that about yourself, but acceptance is the first step toward becoming better.

I accepted a chunk of moderates (some who aren't even voting in the U.S. election) are insufferable, but because I accepted that, I now feel free to move forward and vote for Biden with a gas mask on instead of hiding in a bunker on election day.