GRRM's Thousand Worlds setting has a wiki

[SpaceChampion]

Someone created a wiki for GRRM's Thousand Worlds setting.

[Teng Ai Hui]

That wiki was an interesting, though very brief, read. I didn’t know that background info about the setting. 

[Ran]

Nice. It is a pretty neat setting, even if not fleshed out.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I would love to read GRRM’s aborted novel Avalon set in “The Thousand Worlds”.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Someone created a wiki for GRRM's Thousand Worlds setting.

I just recently found this myself. It was started in November of last year. They beat me to it!  I was working on doing this same thing myself (and maybe with a help). 

[The Fattest Leech]

47 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I would love to read GRRM’s aborted novel Avalon set in “The Thousand Worlds”.

I’d give anything to read what he has completed for Avalon (*knock, knock* Devil heeeere ) 

[SpaceChampion]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I just recently found this myself. It was started in November of last year. They beat me to it!  I was working on doing this same thing myself (and maybe with a help). 

It's a wiki, so you can contribute by adding new pages and editing existing ones.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I’d give anything to read what he has completed for Avalon (*knock, knock* Devil heeeere ) 

Heck,

I wonder if he finished Avalon if it might not stir the creative juices for ASOIAF?

[The Fattest Leech]

39 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

It's a wiki, so you can contribute by adding new pages and editing existing ones.

I’m not sure how those work, honestly. Do you mean anyone can “join” and add info? Thank you... and now I am off 

[The Fattest Leech]

26 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Heck,

I wonder if he finished Avalon if it might not stir the creative juices for ASOIAF?

I could see that considering something sparked while writing Avalon that lead to Bran and the wolf pups. Maybe as a reprove and recharge of the initial concept? Thanks. 

Also, I frequently think about what his train of thought process was going through as he wrote The Glass Flower, then Avalon (partial), and then Bran popped up in giant mind. This is a major reason I’d love to read Avalon, to get a glimpse of that missing link. 

[The hairy bear]

55 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I’m not sure how those work, honestly. Do you mean anyone can “join” and add info? Thank you... and now I am off 

Yes.

You just need to register, and then click on the "view source" icon on the top of each page to edit. You won't need knowledge of the wiki code to add info, and it's very intuitive to learn anyway.

It's the same philosophy and code that from the Wiki of Ice and Fire here.

[Lord Varys]

On 3/10/2020 at 1:38 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I would love to read GRRM’s aborted novel Avalon set in “The Thousand Worlds”.

I asked George about that fragment once on his NAB. It is apparently not that long and he doesn't think he would ever continue it, but he said he really would like to finish 'Black and White and Red All Over'.

One should also ask George one day why the hell he insists that the corpsehandlers stories should not be part of the Thousands Worlds cycle when 'Nobody Leaves New Pittsburg' makes it perfectly clear that it is set in the same universe.

After having read all the pre-ASoIaF I must really say that George's best novel prior to those was The Armageddon Rag. Dying of the Light lacks a proper ending (conceptually, Dirk gets an ending of sorts but it have been nice to get a hint how the duel ended, and he wasn't the only main character in that novel - Gwen and Jaan don't get an ending at all, which really mars the story). It seems to me that George didn't really know how to properly end a novel back when he wrote that book (which seems to have grown out of a long novella, anyway).

Has anyone ever asked George what the hell he thinks happened to those people after the end of the book?

Fevre Dream starts strong but when after the first confrontation between Joshua and Damon the plot breaks down and the story loses cohesion - it is just the same over and over again - Abner wants his ship back again and again, and Joshua wants to do something but can't, everybody wants to kill Damon but they can't, etc. And to be honest I'm also not a fan of the 'scientific vampires' concept and most definitely not about the ridiculous idea that there could be a humanoid species living for tens of thousands of years who routinely kill their mothers when they are born (not only would that have long ago led to extinction but is one of the most misogyinstic world-building elements in that story - as was the pointless death of the Ashara Dayne character in that novel).

Also, I think the vampire shenanigans about the blood master stuff are internally contradictory - if Joshua's anti-bloodlust medicine weakens his will and prevents him from mastering Damon, how is it that Damon himself can be a blood master at all if he has lost his bloodlust and is thus, effectively, an emasculated vampire? His insane shouldn't give him more power considering Joshua isn't very old but has enormous power nonetheless.

Still, though, Fevre Dream has a nice ending, although it could have been more positive if we had gotten an actual glimpse of Joshua and his family continuing to visit Abner's grave long after his death.

The Armageddon Rag, on the other hand, is a very well crafted novel, with a proper structure, and a great execution of its theme. I'm not sure it makes sense to make the 1960s all about music or whether one should simplify a political movement so it boils down to people wanting back the feeling of their youth, but if you want to do that George really did it very well. This is a very great story, with, perhaps, George's best characters in his early work (powerful especially since they are real world characters).

On 3/10/2020 at 2:38 PM, Muaddibs_Tapeworm said:

With Morning Comes Mistfall and A Song for Lya are two of the most beautiful short stories I've ever read.

'With Morning Comes Mistfall' is inevitably funny in our day and age, as are quite some of George's other early stories, since its presuppositions are obviously wrong. Not only cannot you prove a negative convincingingly, but even if you could it would never stop people from earning fortunes expoiting the gullibility of people.

Nobody would give a damn whether some guy thought he had 'proven' there were no wraiths - and the marketing machine would continue to successfully pretend there were some even if it were clear that they did not exist.

And in 'A Song for Lya' from a more somber point of view how fucked-up especially Lya (but Robb, too) must have been to rush into death and collective immortality when they were still so young. Life as it is could only be as bad as Lya makes it to be if you are severely depressed and/or suffering from other severe mental problems. Especially since there is no need to rush things - the immortal hive mind parasite collective is still there and waiting, whether you want to join them at the age of 20 or 120.

Also, I cannot but point out a core flaw of the entire concept - unconditional love by people/entitities you don't really know is meaningless. Lya and Robb feel overwhelmed by the love of strangers whose emotions they can read, but what kind of love is that - what kind of concept of love do the narrator and George himself ascribe to for this story? It doesn't seem to be the kind of love that exists in the real world or makes loving relationships between individuals - such love is dependent of establishing some sort of connection that's based on actual interaction and substance.

[Ran]

12 minutes ago, Muaddibs_Tapeworm said:

The point of the story is how sad it can be when science and technology strip the mystery out of the world. It was inspired by an article Martin read about using sonar or to comb Loch Ness Lake, it's as relevant now as it ever was.

Agreed. Obviously, willingly wanting to remain ignorant about things is not necessarily a positive quality. But the romanticism of, say, the Age of Exploration or the romanticism of the Space Race starts to fade when there's no more exploring to be done or the race ends. 

George's earlier writings are particularly marked by romanticism. Those who have no affinity for it are going to miss the point.

[A wilding]

14 minutes ago, Muaddibs_Tapeworm said:

The point of the story is how sad it can be when science and technology strip the mystery out of the world. It was inspired by an article Martin read about using sonar or to comb Loch Ness Lake, it's as relevant now as it ever was.

Have you been to that part of the world recently? The Nessie tourist industry is as strong as ever. There is an exhibition/museum of Nessie hunting gear and expeditions. People (mostly) know that Nessie can't exist, but they don't care.

[unJon]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, I cannot but point out a core flaw of the entire concept - unconditional love by people/entitities you don't really know is meaningless. Lya and Robb feel overwhelmed by the love of strangers whose emotions they can read, but what kind of love is that - what kind of concept of love do the narrator and George himself ascribe to for this story? It doesn't seem to be the kind of love that exists in the real world or makes loving relationships between individuals - such love is dependent of establishing some sort of connection that's based on actual interaction and substance.

Huh? With that logic you could cure heroin addiction the world over. 

[Ran]

4 hours ago, unJon said:

Huh? With that logic you could cure heroin addiction the world over. 

Indeed.

Reminds me of Greg Egan's award-winning novella "Oceanic", which takes place on a mostly-aquatic planet where there's a devout religious worship connected to the sea, driven in part by euphoric feelings worshippers get when participating in rituals. The story turns on the lead character and other scientists coming to realize that the euphoric feeling that was believed to be proof of God were just microbiological excretions that messed with their neurochemistry.

Emotions are at their root neurochemical in nature. If your brain is telling you you're engulfed in pleasure, that's what you feel. If it's telling you that you're feeling an immense sense of connection and love, that's what you feel. 

[Lord Varys]

19 hours ago, Muaddibs_Tapeworm said:

The point of the story is how sad it can be when science and technology strip the mystery out of the world. It was inspired by an article Martin read about using sonar or to comb Loch Ness Lake, it's as relevant now as it ever was.

I get that. In fact, I thought this was a story about 'space Nessie' even before I learned that this was actually the case. However, this doesn't change my point at all.

There are two, in fact:

1. The story as it was written does not convincingly/realistic depict the concept at hand. The idea that an investigation of 'space Nessie' is going to 'do away with the magic' is just wrong. It wouldn't happen and thus the story as written simply doesn't work. We as humans are not set up in a way that rational investigations is going to rid us of superstitions on the one hand and romantic imagination on the other hand. If rationality ruled, antisemitism wouldn't be a thing for 2,000 years of human history.

In that sense I'd argue George has a wrong image of humanity in the story, seeing them both as too rational (they would buy it that 'space Nessie' doesn't exist) and at the same time far too unwilling to continue to answer 'the romantic call' no matter what the cynics say.

This story would have worked much, much better if the scenario had been different and it hadn't been about a guy trying to prove that 'something doesn't exist' - because, quite frankly, that's simply impossible (which is another flaw of the story).

The other early master piece of George's - 'The Second King of Loneliness' - has a similar flaw. It is (1) completely unbelievable that the space authorities would allow one guy to manage a lonely space station at the edge of the solar system, and (2) that a guy as depressed and deraged as the protagonist of that story would be even considered for the job during the rigid screening process the candidates applying for such a job would go through. Those flaws most definitely mar this story.

[And one can't but wonder whether George realized/was told that, too, considering his later story, 'Slide Show' dealt with the resentment of a man who was allowed to go to the stars but once and then 'they were taken away from him'. The protagonist in 'The Second Kind of Loneliness' has no such problems - in his world going to the edge of the solar system is the way to cope with being dumped by your girlfriend ;-).]

2. I, personally, don't think the conceptual dichotomy of romanticism vs. science makes much sense - most scientists I know are very much into romanticism if you include fantasy and SF and weird fiction as 'romanticism'. I'd say the more you learn and understand about the world the more its magic grows - and the magic in your head since complexity always adds more intricate layers to the entire thing.

But that's my personal view and not a flaw of the story as such.

And to be perfectly clear - I don't think those are bad stories. I like them. But they have flaws. But they are also honest attempts of a young writer who put really his heart into them. Like he did with many his early stories.

19 hours ago, Ran said:

George's earlier writings are particularly marked by romanticism. Those who have no affinity for it are going to miss the point.

Well, I definitely didn't miss the point of that one. I'd argue that George was always a cynical romanticist, not one who really believed in romanticism. Stories like 'Night Shift' and 'Patrick Henry' are far too, well, cynical to actually count as romances. Even the great 'The Stone City' - which, in the end, at least, culminates in 'ultimate exploration' also comes comes with the ultimate price tag attached.

[Lord Varys]

19 hours ago, A wilding said:

Have you been to that part of the world recently? The Nessie tourist industry is as strong as ever. There is an exhibition/museum of Nessie hunting gear and expeditions. People (mostly) know that Nessie can't exist, but they don't care.

Yeah, if I get around to it one day I might write a proper sequel to 'With Morning Comes Mistfall' and depict the place the way it would have developed ;-).

19 hours ago, unJon said:

Huh? With that logic you could cure heroin addiction the world over. 

Not really. The drug comparison is way off since we talk about a world were 'spirits' or 'souls' are actually a thing (not to mention telepathy). The entire point of the guys telling us the greeshka isn't even properly alive much less a creature with a 'mind' of its own is to establish that this isn't some kind of mind-sucking vampire creature.

You can interpret the story in a way implying that the greeshka are messing with people since the author doesn't really dismiss this possibility completely, but it is evident that George wanted to write about real emotional issues there, not fake stuff. You get that when you look at the character of Dino Valcarenghi - he is portrayed as the sick one, not Robb and Lya, and their assessment of his character is something we have to take very seriously considering that telepaths tell us of his inner life. He is frozen inside, doesn't even understand that he is missing something, but it is quite clear that he is missing out on real love, which is essentially the the theme of the story.

If we continued your drug metaphor we would have to imagine Lya as being the overwhelmed by a drug - which would make her just a victim of some evil forces and Robb basically a monster who abandoned her to death. Instead, the way I read it - and I think the way it is intended - is that this is all real. The people eaten by the greeshka become part of a collective mind and live forever in eternal peace and joy.

The problem with that is a sense the same problem you have with 'real heaven' or 'real paradise' - how does that work without the people *being there* being lobotomized into mindless happy drones? It doesn't really work all that well. If we suppose that Lya and Robb both remain *themselves* after they first connected with the greeshka then their extreme reactions (and Robb reacts almost as extreme as Lya when he probes the greeshka and the joined in the cave near the end of the story) imply that 'the greeshka heaven' resonates perfectly with a deep longing or emptiness in the human mind (something very much implied by the theoretical background in the story about the Shkeen being essentially the most human-like species humanity has discovered so far). This longing/emptiness is very much felt by Robb and Lya ... and not at all by the emotionally crippled Dino.

The problem I have with that is the fact that this longing/emptiness seems to be characterized as completely overblown, inhuman ideal of love - absolute closeness/merging, a stronger bond than even Robb and Lya have - something the Joined to have.

But I'd argue that this kind of thing - a completely unconditional love by a person who doesn't know you (Lya, when reading the Joined feels their unconditional love for her, but she doesn't feel that they know or understand her as a person) or love as merging with another/becoming another isn't really the kind of thing human beings want as a whole.

Hence the idea that the two protagonists actually must have severe emotional/mental problems.

And in principle I'd say that the 'greeshka heaven' is no bad idea (it is most definitely preferable to death) ... just that there is really no need to rush things. If you want to do that there is either something very much wrong with you or the greeshka are really messing with your mind ... which isn't really what the story implies.