Why did Sansa dislike being Northern?

[Elegant Woes]

@Prince Rhaego Sansa isn't the only character that GRRM uses to deconstruct the fantasy genre. Quentyn is another example. He is used to deconstruct the Hero's Journey. 

 

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Prince Rhaego Sansa isn't the only character that GRRM uses to deconstruct the fantasy genre. Quentyn is another example. He is used to deconstruct the Hero's Journey. 

 

Very good point aswell 

[Mladen]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

Except that Torrhen Stark bent his knee to Aegon the Conqueror. Granted, he did so to keep dragons from destroying the North (and, possibly, to keep Aegon from crossing the river and entering the North) but bending the knee was ever-after associated with the Starks.

So not bending her knee may be unique to Sansa. Or maybe she has become a Free Folk member at the point when she fails to bend her knee. That might really show her love of the north - the part that is beyond the Wall.

Except Torrhen remained one of the most unpopular Starks in history. He did save North but many never forgot that he knelt and considered it a sign of weakness.

I wouldn't say it is unique to Sansa as Tyrion clearly associates that pride with her roots. Remember what Umber said when he crowned Robb "Why should we bent our knees...?" Northerners are very proud, Sansa included. Eddard was like that. He was ready to leave Robert once he didn't respect him. 

3 hours ago, Prince Rhaego said:

She's one of the most superficial fantasy tropes I've ever read

Sansa is actually one of the Martin's finest works. It's subtle, ever evasive but when connecting dots, it's ultimately there. It is not just about "fairy tale princess" trope, but about growing, physical, emotional and yes, sexual. Even in her shallowness, she is astute and intelligent, noticing things one would miss. It's so easy to put her into "beautiful, shallow, stupid little thing" but I have no doubts she'll prove to be anything but.

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why would Ned want Sansa to marry south?

Not necessarily North, but I think Ned, just like many others, would see how Sansa would do well at any Southern court. That said, it was something that wasn't discussed at the beginning of the story. 

[frenin]

18 minutes ago, Risto said:

Except Torrhen remained one of the most unpopular Starks in history. He did save North but many never forgot that he knelt and considered it a sign of weakness.

Torrhen is a pretty popular name within the northern nobility, i'd say the Starks themselves did not like him much but that does not seem to be extended to the rest of the northmen afterwards.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Risto said:

Sansa is actually one of the Martin's finest works. It's subtle, ever evasive but when connecting dots, it's ultimately there. It is not just about "fairy tale princess" trope, but about growing, physical, emotional and yes, sexual. Even in her shallowness, she is astute and intelligent, noticing things one would miss. It's so easy to put her into "beautiful, shallow, stupid little thing" but I have no doubts she'll prove to be anything but.

 

 

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Sansa is actually one of the Martin's finest works. It's subtle, ever evasive but when connecting dots, it's ultimately there. It is not just about "fairy tale princess" trope, but about growing, physical, emotional and yes, sexual. Even in her shallowness, she is astute and intelligent, noticing things one would miss. It's so easy to put her into "beautiful, shallow, stupid little thing" but I have no doubts she'll prove to be anything but.

Not necessarily North, but I think Ned, just like many others, would see how Sansa would do well at any Southern court. That said, it was something that wasn't discussed at the beginning of the story. 

I wonder... is the fandom's dislike of Sansa rooted in our self-hatred in being as blind as Sansa was in not seeing everything crashing down?

As far as Sansa's prospects, sure she would probably have done well at any Southern court, it's just that Robert knew about what Joffrey was and yet he betrothed him to Sansa anyways. I pity the fool. On the other hand, I don't know what Ned was thinking about bringing Arya to the South.

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Torrhen is a pretty popular name within the northern nobility, i'd say the Starks themselves did not like him much but that does not seem to be extended to the rest of the northmen afterwards.

Was he the only Torrhen in history? I mean the fact there are other Torrhens doesn't actually prove this Torrhen's popularity. 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder... is the fandom's dislike of Sansa rooted in our self-hatred in being as blind as Sansa was in not seeing everything crashing down?

No one wants to admit that they are stupid. Or naive. When we read that, it's easy to judge. But then, if we recall our behavior when we were 11/12. especially those who had the opportunity to be raised in extremely wealthy family, one would see how actually Sansa is not that different from any of us. But I think that is what makes Sansa so special in ASOIAF. Through her "unspecialness" she's on road to become a force to be reckoned with. We see this incredible transformation from girl who was taught what to do to a woman who's example of what must be done.

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

As far as Sansa's prospects, sure she would probably have done well at any Southern court, it's just that Robert knew about what Joffrey was and yet he betrothed him to Sansa anyways. I pity the fool. On the other hand, I don't know what Ned was thinking about bringing Arya to the South.

Yeah, even Tyrion admitted it was a great idea, if Joffrey had not been a sadistic idiot he was. As for Arya, I agree. That was a ticking bomb of Lyanna proportions waiting to happen  

[Elegant Woes]

9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder... is the fandom's dislike of Sansa rooted in our self-hatred in being as blind as Sansa was in not seeing everything crashing down?

This definitely plays a factor, but I think there are other things that make the Sansa hate more nuanced than we think. 1. Sansa was written in an unsympathetic way in AGOT. She does things that initially seem unlikable but after reading the books that come later we come to understand Sansa's psyche and outlook on life more and because of that her actions in AGOT suddenly look more understandable and sympathetic. I don't think this is an accident. GRRM purposely wrote her in this way to instill critical reading in us and for that she had to be disliked to some level (unfortunately too many people took this too far) 2. She's not the type of character that readers can live vicariously through. No matter how nuanced and multi-layered George writes them characters like Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany and Tyrion are still to some level wish fulfillment characters (and before people come at me, I am not saying there's something wrong with this). Sansa isn't like that and she sticks out like a sore thumb because of it. Sure she represents the Damsel in Distress, but that archetype in the fantasy genre usually doesn't get a voice like Sansa does. GRRM is literally creating a whole new archetype with Sansa. While that is revolutionary from a writer's perspective to readers it can be boring. So again Sansa was bound to be an unpopular character. 3 Misogyny. I have been extremely kind in my previous points but in this one I will be blunt (perhaps even rude). Yes Sansa hasn't been always kind. Yes Sansa has made morally grey choices, but guess what, that still doesn't warrant the deep seated hatred she got by the fans. And no matter how many people will deny this misogyny plays a deep part in Sansa hate. It took many many years before this hatred to die down a bit and for some fans to contextualize Sansa's actions, and still many people deny this nuance to Sansa, something they readily gave to far more heinous characters. This fandom decided to sympathize with child murderers, war criminals, rapists and pedophiles before a flawed, but still sincere teenage girl and that's deeply unsettling. 

[Nagini's Neville]

On 11. März 2020 at 11:39 PM, Mystical said:

For me it's similar to a kid that grew up in the country or on a farm and has only seen big cities from watching movies. All the colors, spectacle, the people, the clothes...it's so different and probably exiting. Because just like in Sansa's stories, a lot of kids movies only show the good but not the bad. But that doesn't mean that when the kid gets to see an actual city (or even live there), that they resent where they come from or abhor the life and the country/farm.

Exactly. I always wanted to live in a southern european country, where it's warm on the beach, when I was a kid. Is that so weird? Since when is wanting to see other places a bad thing? Seems like the most normal thing in the world to me tbh. None of my friends from school nor me stayed in the same country after graduation.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder... is the fandom's dislike of Sansa rooted in our self-hatred in being as blind as Sansa was in not seeing everything crashing down?

I was pretty much like Sansa growing up and I'd say 80% of my female friends were extremely similar as well (that's why I have so much respect for GRRM as a writer). So I'd say it could be partly self-haterd or just not wanting to acknowledge how one truly was, between the ages of 11 and 13. I'm always amazed how many ppl are so very certain they would have been able to deal with such severe trauma just as well or even better than she has (while simultaneously single-handedly fighting their way out of KL as well) 

A lot of readers don't even dispute, that she is very realistic, but strongly dislike her anyway. 

I also don't think society in general has enough understanding of how powerful and important simple, but genuine kindness and empathy can be. ppl don't pay close enough attention (because Sansa is written so subtle) to recognize how impactful her treatment of single characters on a micro level already has been and what strength and potential lay in that.

But kindness and empathy does often not even get acknowledged as such in our society, but interpreted as weakness to be exploited. 

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Risto said:

Was he the only Torrhen in history? I mean the fact there are other Torrhens doesn't actually prove this Torrhen's popularity. 

I think it does.

 

[...] The first true Lannister king we know of is Loreon Lannister, also known as Loreon the Lion (a number of Lannisters through the centuries have been dubbed “the Lion” or “the Golden,” for understandable reasons), who made the Reynes of Castamere his vassals by wedding a daughter of that house, and defeated the Hooded King, Morgon Banefort, and his thralls in a war that lasted twenty years. Loreon might have been the first Lannister to style himself King of the Rock, but it was a title his sons and grandsons and their successors continued to bear for thousands of years. [...] Some of the Lannister kings were famed for their wisdom, some for their valor, all for their open-handedness … save perhaps for King Norwin Lannister, better known as Norwin the Niggardly. Yet Casterly Rock also housed many a weak, cruel, and feeble king. Loreon IV was better known as Loreon the Lackwit, and his grandson Loreon V was dubbed Queen Lorea, for he was fond of dressing in his wife’s clothing and wandering the docks of Lannisport in the guise of a common prostitute. (After their reigns, the name Loreon became notably less common amongst Lannister princes.) A later monarch, Tyrion II, was known as the Tormentor. Though a strong king, famed for prowess with his battle-axe, his true delight was torture, and it was whispered of him that he desired no woman unless he first made her bleed.

 

The chief issue of Maekar's reign was the question of his heirs. He had a number of sons and daughters, but there were those who had reason to doubt their fitness to rule. The eldest, Prince Daeron, was known as the Drunken, and preferred to be styled Prince of Summerhall because he found Dragonstone such a gloomy abode. Next after him was Prince Aerion, known as Brightflame or Brightfire—a most puissant knight but cruel and capricious, and a dabbler in the black arts. Both of these princes died before their father, though both had issue. Prince Daeron sired a daughter, Vaella, in 222 AC, but the girl sadly proved simple. Aerion Brightfire's son was born in 232 AC, and given the ominous name of Maegor by his sire, but the Bright Prince himself died that same year when he drank a cup of wildfire in the belief that it would allow him to transform himself into a dragon.

 

 

The Loreons made their names practically banned for the Lannisters and we've never seen any other Westermen using it even when the first Lannister King was Loreon the Lion, Torrhen is a perfect common name among the northern nobility, absolutely no one would bear the name of the King who knelt if he was such a disrepected man. Just as no sane person would name his son Maegor..

It's remarkably however that no Stark ever called his son Torrhen that we know of, we know that Torrhen's sons wanted to know nothing about the Targs and his 7 Kingdoms and that only after the Dance started to show their loyalty, so it's safe to guess that while the northmen did not hold many grudges against Torrhen... his own children and descendants did for a pretty long while. I would no be surprised ifthe monicker of "The King who knelt" was given by his own children.

The idea however that the bending the knee was ever after associated with the Starks is ludicrous, it wsa sqauarely on Torrhen's feet, it's the king who knelt, not the dynasty who knelt,

 

@Elegant Woes

 

Quote

It took many many years before this hatred to die down a bit and for some fans to contextualize Sansa's actions, and still many people deny this nuance to Sansa, something they readily gave to far more heinous characters. This  fandom decided to sympathize with child murderers, war criminals, rapists and pedophiles before a flawed, but still sincere teenage girl and that's deeply unsettling. 

 She also suffers the Cat effect, she is not especially nice to characters the fandom deeply root for and that blinds more than one. Sansa saying that Jon is a bastard is enough to crucify her... Arya calling Gendry a bastard... what, that never happened!!!! At this point, it's more funny than annoying.  We could say that the children were taught to differentiate between bastards and trueborn children and Jon not being especially close to Sansa meant that said difference never really blurred while it did with the other kids without them ever forgetting the difference between them and bastards but making Jon a special case... Or we could say that Sansa hated her brother for being a bastard and likely  she was taught that by her bitch mother to hate them all... 

[Elegant Woes]

@frenin The funny thing is that Sansa isn't the only Starkling who differentiate Jon from their other siblings. Every time Bran thinks of his siblings in thoughts he always mentions Jon last. Even Arya, the mirror image of Jon, thinks that at the end of the day Jon is no Stark. No one calls them mean or classist - only Sansa. Hypocrisy much. Speaking of hypocrisy I often notice that those who say Sansa was awful for that "Poor Jon, he gets jealous because he's a bastard" comment love to ignore the equally awful comment of Jon that Arya parroted: "Jon says he looks like a girl" (as if there's something wrong with a boy having feminine features). If we have to call out Sansa for her classist comment then by virtue Jon's sexist comment should be called out too. However this fandom doesn't do that. Like I said before there are different standards for Sansa.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

"Poor Jon, he gets jealous because he's a bastard" comment love to ignore the equally awful comment of Jon that Arya parroted: "Jon says he looks like a girl." If we have to call out Sansa for her classist comment then by virtue Jon's sexist comment should be too.

that's totally true. most just ignore, that she said it in response to Jon dissing the boy she already had a crush on, who was giving her compliments. Nobody talks about how rude his comment was and how Arya deliberately telling her that, when the topic was Joffrey giving Sansa compliments, wasn't exactly nice either, but also meant as a dig at Sansa. Nobody is accusing them on ganging up or her or something. It can only be Sansa's fault, if she isn't close with either of them. When you consider Arya's and Jon's comments here, I think she is pretty poised and chill with her answer, instead of insulting Jon back, she just says "poor Jon he must be jealous. If he says such things- really he is the one we should pity here" lol. I'd say, that is a pretty good insult back, without truly "insulting" him. But of course all of that doesn't matter, because Joffrey turns out to be a monster. Therefore Jon was always totally right to insult him and Arya was right to tell Sansa and Sansa stupid to defend him. Even though all 3 of them don't know Joffrey at this point at all. If Joffrey had turned out to be the greatest guy on earth people perception would be probably different. 

And sometimes I feel like some ppl have never seen/heard children interact before. This is absolutely harmless and ridiculous IMO.

[Angel Eyes]

13 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 

And sometimes I feel like some ppl have never seen/heard children interact before. This is absolutely harmless and ridiculous IMO.

Except that in the book it's shown that Sansa and her friends Jeyne and Beth gang up on Arya. What is this, Mean Girls?

[Elegant Woes]

@Angel Eyes In what way do Sansa, Jeyne and Beth gang up on Arya? If you mentioned only Jeyne I would agreed with you but Beth? The one line she has in all five books that has been published is: Joffrey is so handsome, he said that Sansa is pretty, Sansa will be the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms one day. How does that amount to being a "mean girl". Sansa also does literally nothing to Arya. She actually tried to include in Arya into a conversation, covers for her from Septa Mordane and DOESN'T even smirk or smile when Arya is embarrassed. Again how does this amount to being a mean girl? This is exactly the type of behavior I despise in this fandom: projecting flaws that don't exist onto Sansa. Just because Sansa is pretty and popular doesn't automatically make her the Westeros version of Regina George. 

[Lord Varys]

On 3/24/2020 at 12:12 AM, frenin said:

It's remarkably however that no Stark ever called his son Torrhen that we know of, we know that Torrhen's sons wanted to know nothing about the Targs and his 7 Kingdoms and that only after the Dance started to show their loyalty, so it's safe to guess that while the northmen did not hold many grudges against Torrhen... his own children and descendants did for a pretty long while. I would no be surprised ifthe monicker of "The King who knelt" was given by his own children.

You might not know of any Torrhen Starks, but we who have gone through the Stark family tree definitely do know one.

There is no reason to believe that the name Torrhen was a particularly disliked name among the Starks, just as there is no reason to believe he was a particularly popular one. In addition to the omnipresent Brandon the Starks do have a pretty large pool of popular names - Brandon, Benjen, Rickon pop up again and again, but they don't seem to recycle many of the other names.

[Elegant Woes]

@Angel Eyes Also I am pretty sure that Arya calling herself Blind Beth in ADWD was after Beth Cassel. Arya wouldn't have done this if she didn't get along with her to a certain degree. So please, leave Beth Cassel alone. 

[Angel Eyes]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You might not know of any Torrhen Starks, but we who have gone through the Stark family tree definitely do know one.

There is no reason to believe that the name Torrhen was a particularly disliked name among the Starks, just as there is no reason to believe he was a particularly popular one. In addition to the omnipresent Brandon the Starks do have a pretty large pool of popular names - Brandon, Benjen, Rickon pop up again and again, but they don't seem to recycle many of the other names.

Well there haven’t been any other Eddards.

[Angel Eyes]

19 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Angel Eyes In what way do Sansa, Jeyne and Beth gang up on Arya? If you mentioned only Jeyne I would agreed with you but Beth? The one line she has in all five books that has been published is: Joffrey is so handsome, he said that Sansa is pretty, Sansa will be the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms one day. How does that amount to being a "mean girl". Sansa also does literally nothing to Arya. She actually tried to include in Arya into a conversation, covers for her from Septa Mordane and DOESN'T even smirk or smile when Arya is embarrassed. Again how does this amount to being a mean girl? This is exactly the type of behavior I despise in this fandom: projecting flaws that don't exist onto Sansa. Just because Sansa is pretty and popular doesn't automatically make her the Westeros version of Regina George. 

And yet it’s mentioned that Sansa and Jeyne insult Arya by calling her “Arya Horseface”.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And yet it’s mentioned that Sansa and Jeyne insult Arya by calling her “Arya Horseface”.

But what has Beth done? Also, calling her horseface isn't nice but have we not all called our siblings things like this? Arya picks at Sansa just as much no? I dearly love both characters but they are just little girls, being little girls. 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well there haven’t been any other Eddards.

Eddard apparently wasn't a name the Starks used for centuries. Could be that there was some ancient King Eddard we don't know anything about, but it is more likely that this is just another variation of the E-names the Starks used - Edderion, Edric, Edwyn, Ellard, Elric, etc.

The Starks do recycle the Brandon name as the traditional Stark name, and then they also seem to honor certain important ancestors by naming their children after them, too, but they like to use variations more than direct recycling. This is even evident in the novels where Robb, named after Robert Baratheon, is not named 'Robert' (like Robert Arryn was) but 'Robb'.