MCUniverse Thread: Visualizing WandaVision

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Lost ended after six seasons. It did not have a seventh season.

The smoke monster is a security system for the Island - as we were outright told in Season 1 - and one of the embodiments of the Island's energy which can be used for both good and evil. When the Man in Black is placed in the heart of the Island, he becomes a conduit for the system and corrupts it ("Mother" also appears to have been able to use the power of the smoke monster, but she only used it for defence), and uses it to carry out his own agenda within certain limitations (i.e. being trapped on the Island).

Sorry, I've not seen Lost in a long time, so I got the number of seasons mixed up

Yea, most of what you said about the Smoke monster is you using your own fan fiction to fill in blanks.

 

Here's what we know about the monster from what was either shown or told to us.

Danielle Rousseau believed the monster to be a security system, though she's mentally unstable and no other character seems to ever call it this, so her explanation is questionable at best. Ben can apparently summon the monster in season 4, with his secret hole in the ground. It can take on the shape of dead people and get their memories. In season 5, Ben believes the monster to be a judge of some sort and wishes to be judged by the creature. For some unexplained reason it can't cross over ash circles. Finally the Egyptians seemed to worship the creature.

In Across the Sea we see Jacob throws his brother into the magic light, the light spits out Jacob's brothers dead body and the smoke monster comes out of the light. If his soul somehow turned into the monster or if this act of human sacrifice simply woke the monster up or if Jacob's brother merged with the creature is left for us to interoperate and we're never given a clear answer one way or the other.

To be honest, it felt like the Monster was just a giant MacGuffin, that the writers of the show liked to change each season, because it fit their needs. One season the creature is able to clearly attack the plane crash survivors, the next season he's not allowed to. One season he can change his shape as often as he wants, the next season he's just randomly suck as Locke. 

 

I don't want to get off topic though, I just really did not like Lost though.

[Heartofice]

Ugh, your post just made me get angry at Lost again. I thought I’d gotten over it

[RumHam]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Sorry, I've not seen Lost in a long time, so I got the number of seasons mixed up

Yea, most of what you said about the Smoke monster is you using your own fan fiction to fill in blanks.

  Hide contents

Here's what we know about the monster from what was either shown or told to us.

Danielle Rousseau believed the monster to be a security system, though she's mentally unstable and no other character seems to ever call it this, so her explanation is questionable at best. Ben can apparently summon the monster in season 4, with his secret hole in the ground. It can take on the shape of dead people and get their memories. In season 5, Ben believes the monster to be a judge of some sort and wishes to be judged by the creature. For some unexplained reason it can't cross over ash circles. Finally the Egyptians seemed to worship the creature.

In Across the Sea we see Jacob throws his brother into the magic light, the light spits out Jacob's brothers dead body and the smoke monster comes out of the light. If his soul somehow turned into the monster or if this act of human sacrifice simply woke the monster up or if Jacob's brother merged with the creature is left for us to interoperate and we're never given a clear answer one way or the other.

To be honest, it felt like the Monster was just a giant MacGuffin, that the writers of the show liked to change each season, because it fit their needs. One season the creature is able to clearly attack the plane crash survivors, the next season he's not allowed to. One season he can change his shape as often as he wants, the next season he's just randomly suck as Locke. 

 

I don't want to get off topic though, I just really did not like Lost though.

Across the Sea was some bullshit, at least so far as they'd promised it would explain things.

I think there's a big difference between fan fiction and "reading between the lines" a bit. I agree with what Wert said. Whether you call it a security system or the island's guardian or whatever it's pretty clear "mother" was using it to protect the island. They do eventually give some form of answer for almost everything. Like we never learn where the monster came from or how it works, but they do mostly explain what it is and what it's motives are. 

I believe the Man in Black/monster could always attack and kill the survivors who weren't candidates.  He could and did leave his Locke form in the final season to fuck people up as smoke.  I think the only limitation was he could only appear as people who died and their bodies were on the island.

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Across the Sea was some bullshit, at least so far as they'd promised it would explain things.

I think there's a big difference between fan fiction and "reading between the lines" a bit. I agree with what Wert said. Whether you call it a security system or the island's guardian or whatever it's pretty clear "mother" was using it to protect the island. They do eventually give some form of answer for almost everything. Like we never learn where the monster came from or how it works, but they do mostly explain what it is and what it's motives are. 

The fundamental thing about Lost is that you do have to draw between the lines a bit, maybe a bit too much in some places, and they made that mistake back in Season 2 of explaining the Numbers in a spin-off game, but in most cases an answer to any given mystery is pretty much always given, even if it's a season after it was a big deal and in a rather off-hand way. The only one they never really gave was "What actually is the Island?" which I think you either answer up front (at least in the first two seasons) or you fundamentally then can't answer it, because any answer would enrage the two-thirds of the fanbase who had come up with some other answer of their own preference. Or it midichlorians the situation.

[sifth]

7 hours ago, RumHam said:

Across the Sea was some bullshit, at least so far as they'd promised it would explain things.

I think there's a big difference between fan fiction and "reading between the lines" a bit. I agree with what Wert said. Whether you call it a security system or the island's guardian or whatever it's pretty clear "mother" was using it to protect the island. They do eventually give some form of answer for almost everything. Like we never learn where the monster came from or how it works, but they do mostly explain what it is and what it's motives are. 

 

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I believe the Man in Black/monster could always attack and kill the survivors who weren't candidates.  He could and did leave his Locke form in the final season to fuck people up as smoke.  I think the only limitation was he could only appear as people who died and their bodies were on the island.

 

I'm pretty sure the monster does attack Locke and everyone who's with him, during the season 1 final. I recall Locke in particular being nearly dragged into the ground by the creature at one point and Jack needing to save him. We know Locke was on Jacob's list, so yea that is a bit of a plot hole in the story. The monster could still turn into Locke and the smoke creature, but that was it, during the events of season 6. He just randomly loses his powers to change face.................for the obvious reason being they wanted Terry Quinn to remain on the show, but an answer is never given to us on why his powers were weakened. I mean you'd think if anything he'd be more powerful, which his chief rival out of the way. It honestly did feel that the writers could never fully make up their mind on what they wanted the monster to be, which is why they changed things with him each season.

[RumHam]

16 hours ago, sifth said:

 

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I'm pretty sure the monster does attack Locke and everyone who's with him, during the season 1 final. I recall Locke in particular being nearly dragged into the ground by the creature at one point and Jack needing to save him. We know Locke was on Jacob's list, so yea that is a bit of a plot hole in the story. The monster could still turn into Locke and the smoke creature, but that was it, during the events of season 6. He just randomly loses his powers to change face.................for the obvious reason being they wanted Terry Quinn to remain on the show, but an answer is never given to us on why his powers were weakened. I mean you'd think if anything he'd be more powerful, which his chief rival out of the way. It honestly did feel that the writers could never fully make up their mind on what they wanted the monster to be, which is why they changed things with him each season.

 

I'm not saying the show doesn't have any plot holes, they were definitely making it up as they went along. But as I recall Locke was sure the smoke didn't want to kill him and actually wanted to go with it down the hole. Who knows what would of happened if he did.

I guess you're right that he didn't change into Jack's dad or anyone else in the finale season, but I don't recall any indication that he couldn't. The whole "loophole" thing where Locke apparently had to die off the island and then his body return so he could copy him was really convoluted and stupid.   

[DMC]

49 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Spoiler

I'm not saying the show doesn't have any plot holes, they were definitely making it up as they went along. But as I recall Locke was sure the smoke didn't want to kill him and actually wanted to go with it down the hole. Who knows what would of happened if he did.

 

Spoiler

Yeah he tells Jack to let him go but Jack has Kate throw a stick of dynamite into the hole.  This is understandably when Jack starts thinking Locke is insane and later in the episode tells Kate "I think we're gonna have a Locke problem."  Locke had seen the monster earlier in the season and said when he looked into the "eye" of the island what he saw was beautiful (see here).  I really wouldn't categorize that instance as a plot hole.  

As for generally with the man in black's powers, they make it clear in the final season that he could change into any person who died on the island, which explains him impersonating Christian and in terms of the timeline he only takes Locke's form exactly upon his body's return to the island.  Ilana also clarifies that after killing Jacob he can't switch into any other forms but Locke's for..reasons (it's not clear if he could turn back into his own human self, but it is clear he still can become the smoke monster, as he does several times). 

The only real plot holes I can identify regarding his powers that can't be explained is how the MiB showed up on the freighter as Christian to tell Micheal he "can go now" and when Jack hears/sees him off island when he starts unraveling.  Both could be written off as hallucinations and/or messages/dreams from the island itself.  But the MiB does clarify to Sawyer in the final season that he can't just fly off the island in his smoke monster form to escape the island and reach civilization.

ETA:  Oh forgot, another blatant plot hole is when he's down by the donkey wheel when John falls from the well as Christian.  Considering the timeline this actually happened at a time before the Dharma Initiative (Charlotte tells John and co. to "look for the well," so presumably the DI built it before constructing the Orchid.  Also we see from Sawyer/Juliet and co.'s perspective that the statue is still in tact, so actually it precedes Richards arrival in the mid 19th century).  So, does that mean the MiB was time traveling with the survivors?  That seems weird.  If not, how could he already be in Christian's form?  And regardless, how the hell did he know to be in the donkey wheel cave at that precise moment?

 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

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Yeah he tells Jack to let him go but Jack has Kate throw a stick of dynamite into the hole.  This is understandably when Jack starts thinking Locke is insane and later in the episode tells Kate "I think we're gonna have a Locke problem."  Locke had seen the monster earlier in the season and said when he looked into the "eye" of the island what he saw was beautiful (see here).  I really wouldn't categorize that instance as a plot hole.  

As for generally with the man in black's powers, they make it clear in the final season that he could change into any person who died on the island, which explains him impersonating Christian and in terms of the timeline he only takes Locke's form exactly upon his body's return to the island.  Ilana also clarifies that after killing Jacob he can't switch into any other forms but Locke's for..reasons (it's not clear if he could turn back into his own human self, but it is clear he still can become the smoke monster, as he does several times). 

The only real plot holes I can identify regarding his powers that can't be explained is how the MiB showed up on the freighter as Christian to tell Micheal he "can go now" and when Jack hears/sees him off island when he starts unraveling.  Both could be written off as hallucinations and/or messages/dreams from the island itself.  But the MiB does clarify to Sawyer in the final season that he can't just fly off the island in his smoke monster form to escape the island and reach civilization.

ETA:  Oh forgot, another blatant plot hole is when he's down by the donkey wheel when John falls from the well as Christian.  Considering the timeline this actually happened at a time before the Dharma Initiative (Charlotte tells John and co. to "look for the well," so presumably the DI built it before constructing the Orchid.  Also we see from Sawyer/Juliet and co.'s perspective that the statue is still in tact, so actually it precedes Richards arrival in the mid 19th century).  So, does that mean the MiB was time traveling with the survivors?  That seems weird.  If not, how could he already be in Christian's form?  And regardless, how the hell did he know to be in the donkey wheel cave at that precise moment?

 

Doesn't the monster enter Jacob's cabin as well? The cabin that's surrounded by ash and they step over it? Liana states that Jacob wasn't in the cabin for a long time, but "someone else was". See the Cabin is another under answered question, which leads to another plot hole. The monster can't travel over water or over ash circles, according to the rules given to us. Yet he's clearly in that cabin at least two times, once in season 3 and once in season 4, so wtf. Also what was the deal with the cabin anyway? Why was it special, what did it do, and why was it so important?

This is reason that I was not a Lost fan, because it honestly felt like they were just making up stuff on the spot, because "it seemed cool that week". This is a style of storytelling I've never been a huge fan of.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

 

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Doesn't the monster enter Jacob's cabin as well? The cabin that's surrounded by ash and they step over it? Liana states that Jacob wasn't in the cabin for a long time, but "someone else was". See the Cabin is another under answered question, which leads to another plot hole. The monster can't travel over water or over ash circles, according to the rules given to us. Yet he's clearly in that cabin at least two times, once in season 3 and once in season 4, so wtf. Also what was the deal with the cabin anyway? Why was it special, what did it do, and why was it so important?

This is reason that I was not a Lost fan, because it honestly felt like they were just making up stuff on the spot, because "it seemed cool that week". This is a style of storytelling I've never been a huge fan of.

 

Spoiler

I don't think the cabin is plot hole, at least how you're describing it.  As you mention, when Ilana, Bram and co. get to it, she mentions Jacob hadn't been using it and instead "someone else" (clearly indicating the MiB) had been.  She also notices the circlet of ash surrounding the cabin was disrupted, allowing the MiB to enter.  So that's why he was in the cabin in both seasons 3 and 4.  The real question is who the other person was in the cabin along with the MiB-as-Christian when Hurley encounters it in the season 4 premiere -- and how in the hell the cabin "moves," John can't find it, and it seemingly disappears right in front of Hurley's face.

 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

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I don't think the cabin is plot hole, at least how you're describing it.  As you mention, when Ilana, Bram and co. get to it, she mentions Jacob hadn't been using it and instead "someone else" (clearly indicating the MiB) had been.  She also notices the circlet of ash surrounding the cabin was disrupted, allowing the MiB to enter.  So that's why he was in the cabin in both seasons 3 and 4.  The real question is who the other person was in the cabin along with the MiB-as-Christian when Hurley encounters it in the season 4 premiere -- and how in the hell the cabin "moves," John can't find it, and it seemingly disappears right in front of Hurley's face.

 

I don't recall the circle ever being broken until season 5. The bigger question is, wtf is the cabin and why is it important.

[HexMachina]

Maybe time to start a Lost thread?...

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't recall the circle ever being broken until season 5. The bigger question is, wtf is the cabin and why is it important.

 

Spoiler

Right, in The Incident Part I - the finale to season 5 - Bram notices a gap in the circle and yells to Illana "look at the ash."  I can't quickly find a clip, but since I'm on Hulu anyway it's at..around 31:45 in the episode.  I think it's fair to assume that it'd been broken for quite some time, and that's why the MiB was using it.  At least that's the implication I got from it that I thought was pretty apparent.

Why is the cabin important?  I suppose that's a fair criticism.  In terms of what we know, Horace built it and then Jacob presumably used it to interact with Richard (Ben admits he'd never met Jacob and based on Ben & Charles' conversation in season 4's The Shape of Things to Come, Charles hadn't either.  Zero indication Eloise ever did too).  But, apparently/eventually Jacob stopped using it and the MiB exploited that.  Why did Jacob seemingly allow this, or not realize the MiB was manipulating Ben, John, really even Richard through employing the cabin?  Yeah, who knows.  Jacob's decisions are open to a wide variety of scrutiny logically, ethically, morally.

 

11 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Maybe time to start a Lost thread?...

Yeah I guess this tangent's been going on a bit too long, I'll stop now unless someone starts a new thread.

[Derfel Cadarn]

I think it was confirmed the Christian who visits Jack is not mib. Not sure about freighter  christian

[williamjm]

I saw a link to this article (https://io9.gizmodo.com/good-god-black-widows-alternate-avengers-endgame-deat-1842795315) today about an alternate version of the Vormir scene from Endgame. I'm not sure how I feel about it as an alternative, it doesn't look like a bad scene (although clearly other earlier scenes would be needed to explain it) but it maybe loses some of the impact of the one in the actual film since Natasha seems to have less of a choice to make.

[Myrddin]

On 4/11/2020 at 9:59 AM, williamjm said:

I saw a link to this article (https://io9.gizmodo.com/good-god-black-widows-alternate-avengers-endgame-deat-1842795315) today about an alternate version of the Vormir scene from Endgame. I'm not sure how I feel about it as an alternative, it doesn't look like a bad scene (although clearly other earlier scenes would be needed to explain it) but it maybe loses some of the impact of the one in the actual film since Natasha seems to have less of a choice to make.

Why are you posting this in a Lost thread???

 

 

 

 

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, Myrddin said:

Why are you posting this in a Lost thread???

 

 

 

 

I forgot to mention my theory that the Island was actually located on Vormir. That explains why it was so difficult to find.

[RumHam]

There's a rumor goign around that they've canceled Helstrom before any of it has even been released. Which would make a lot of sense since they cancelled all the other Marvel TV shows months ago but Helstrom was already pretty far into filming. 

They've definitly cancelled the showrunner's contract, along with another Marvel TV showrunner who did The Punisher.

[Rhom]

9 hours ago, RumHam said:

There's a rumor goign around that they've canceled Helstrom before any of it has even been released. Which would make a lot of sense since they cancelled all the other Marvel TV shows months ago but Helstrom was already pretty far into filming. 

They've definitly cancelled the showrunner's contract, along with another Marvel TV showrunner who did The Punisher.

Is that a Netflix show?

[Darth Richard II]

Hulu

[SpaceChampion]

Adam Warlock and Nova to team up with Captain Marvel to take on Galactus in Annihilation

Quote

Adam Warlock & Nova will set up a major cosmic future of the MCU as they will team up with the likes of Captain Marvel in a movie called Annihilation. But the team doesn’t just end here.